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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Beware of Warner Brs/Turbine games

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61 posts found
  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

9/28/13 11:29:27 PM#21
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
What most people don't know is that EULAs (and other types of waivers) can be bypassed if you can show negligence, fraud, malpractice, etc, on the part of the wrongdoer regardless of what the wording on the EULA says.  Those EULAs are there just to cow people into thinking they don't have legal rights or that they've signed them away. This is not true at all. 

Yea legally EULA's aren't nearly as ironclad as they read.

No contract or agreement can legally supplant your nations/states/province consumer protection laws or statutes.   To include freedom of speech/assembly(or your regions equivalent)  witch the whole defend portion of that particular EULA invalidates.

 

They are written the way they are for bluff purposes

 

EDIT

However anything in an EULA you break they can legally terminate service but that's about it.  But using that clause often can make your PR dept a little too busy

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2500

9/28/13 11:33:05 PM#22
Originally posted by BingoBongBango
Originally posted by Helleri

This is why I always pay with game cards, or pre-paid gift cards...I simply do not trust these companies with my information. And, especially not Turbine.

 

Thing is, any one who had made an account with them - by the simple act of having Turbine's software on said users machine - had given them exoneration from this. And, from anything they might do in the future. Take a look at this excerpt from their EULA:

 
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME CLIENT OR ANY USE THEREOF, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY LOSS OF DATA OR GOODWILL, DISRUPTION OF SERVICE OR CLAIMS OF THIRD PARTIES. IN NO EVENT SHALL TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, LIQUIDATED, OR OTHER CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, WHETHER UNDER CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), STRICT LIABILITY OR ANY OTHER THEORY OF LIABILITY, ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE GAME (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE GAME CLIENT). THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS SHALL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS OF ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE. In no event shall Turbine's aggregate liability, whether arising in contract, tort, strict liability or otherwise, exceed the total fees paid by you to Turbine during the six (6) months immediately prior to the time such claim arose.
 
Not only that but it's users are pretty much required to defend their honor, no matter what and not complain (another excerpt):
 
INDEMNIFICATION. YOU HEREBY AGREE TO DEFEND, INDEMNIFY AND HOLD HARMLESS TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES AND AFFILIATES, FROM AND AGAINST ANY CLAIM, LIABILITY, INJURY, DAMAGE, LOSS OR EXPENSE (INCLUDING REASONABLE ATTORNEYS' FEES) INCURRED AS A RESULT OF, ARISING FROM, OR RELATING TO YOUR USE OF THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME CLIENT.
 
And, many EULA/TOS across the MMORPG board are a lot like this one...If the OP has an active account with turbine (As in having their software on a computer that the OP owns), then the OP just violated their EULA with this thread. Not, trying to be a jerk about it. Just saying, that is the extent of your lack of freedoms when you play many MMORPG's. It is insane and it should be illegal. And, they should not be able to get away with this un-scaved and just sweep it under the rug...But, they will. And, if you don't like it. tough cookies.
 
 
...I have said it before and will say it again
 
Totally hear what you are saying .... suck a lot but very very true .... how many of us just click the accept button on EULA's .... and don't see you as being a jerk ... its great information ..

 

 EULA does not rise above actual law and theft is nothing to shrug off. I believe stealing anything above ~500.00 USD is a felony charge. Seeing as this is a repeated offense on their part I wouldn't put it past Warner Bro./Turbine as trying to scam the unsuspecting customers out of their money. 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  User Deleted
9/28/13 11:34:47 PM#23
Originally posted by BMBender
 

They are written the way they are for bluff purposes

 

 

This. And also what Mtibbs1989 said [in his first sentence].

  Acornia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 163

9/28/13 11:47:32 PM#24

Can not find the US code number for the law "use of the internet to steal money" right now.  But this may fall under that law and carries 20 years of jail time.

This is why it is just one very important reason to contact your bank as soon as possible so if they have to, they can report this to your state AG office and the Feds so all three can action to correct this.

  User Deleted
9/28/13 11:49:52 PM#25
And paying overdraft fees, for example, are damages caused by this billing error. This could add up quite a bit in a lawsuit, not to mention if there are legal fees to pay or punitive damages. Looks like trouble brewing for sure.
  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2500

9/28/13 11:51:54 PM#26
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
And paying overdraft fees, for example, are damages caused by this billing error. This could add up quite a bit in a lawsuit, not to mention if there are legal fees to pay or punitive damages. Looks like trouble brewing for sure.

 I don't want to imagine the amount of overdraft fees that would happen to these customers.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

9/28/13 11:58:26 PM#27
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
And paying overdraft fees, for example, are damages caused by this billing error. This could add up quite a bit in a lawsuit, not to mention if there are legal fees to pay or punitive damages. Looks like trouble brewing for sure.

 I don't want to imagine the amount of overdraft fees that would happen to these customers.

yea it's gonna be a long week for T billing.   As far as the person talking about stealing, for that to stick you have to prove intent.

however damages on the other hand particularly if ones credit rating got jacked up after the account drain then a legit bill got missed....

  BingoBongBango

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 24

 
OP  9/29/13 12:20:22 AM#28
Originally posted by BMBender

I want to apologize to the OP.  I assumed in the back of my head that you were just Turbine bashing so I caveated my statement's with (iff accurate)

I checked the AC site and the OP is in fact telling the truth.  sorry for suspicion it was the post count + the subject matter

 

again I apologize

No worries at all Bender ... its totally understandable to be skeptical especially with me just creating my account today ... and in all honesty I created it for the purposes of posting this information ... looking around I like the forums here so its a benefit to me now too :-)

 

I've been a supporter for Turbine for 14 years .... the developers that remain are great people and they have been doing a stellar job at trying to re-invent the game (AC that is) ... what other game has lasted 14+ years ?   it was the fact that they (boffins above the developers) are still trying to cover this up is what bothered me and I usually am not the type of person to make a fuss of things like this but as people are saying ... over draft fees, late fees for a car payment missed due to no fund available .... closing of bank account due to 100's+ transactions from the same vendor on a weekend ... actually any time this happens is more than just a PITA .... so it really got my goat going ....

If me posting this makes people aware and perhaps some other larger gaming sites gets a hold of the info and make it public it may help people that got totally burnt by this with Turbine get some real resolution and Turbine admitting (publicly) that such major over charges have taken place and will everything in there power to compensate the people involved ... not just pay the monies they took out of the accounts ... 

 

As for me my bank has already closed my account and I'm getting a new card with a new account number so they cant charge me any more .... but also they can not reverse the charges now so I have to dispute the charges with the bank and fight that battle ... hoping on Monday my bank will be able to help with all that ... my bank is awesome and go way above and beyond (its credit union so that makes a difference)

 

Sorry for being so long winded on all this .......

 

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 724

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

9/29/13 12:20:52 AM#29

Even though these are boiler plate contracts, enforceability (or lack thereof), depends on the state, region, or province you are in, the court the matter is heard through, And a really good argument on either side. If you did or do any of the following:

 

- Pay them utilizing a line of credit not in your name.

- Install their software on a machine that you can not prove ownership of.

- Show/Have no substantial evidence of your claims.

- Agree to their ToS/EULA when not of age to legally do so where you live.

- Did not allow for adequate time according to your local laws for a resolution to the issue to be reached outside of court.

 

Any claim you or anyone would make on your behalf is substantially weaker. Especially if the company makes the ToS/EULA publicly available before the point of having to agree to it to proceed with use of their product (which Turbine does on their website, though it is difficult to navigate to without typing it into google).

 

The biggest reason that they will get away with it is because a heavy chunk of their users,are using their service illegally (or at the very least in a way that is against their explicit terms/conditions of use). If you go after them for whatever reason, they will do everything in their power to find fault with you.And, these are big boys. They won't play nice. If you have one song, movie, game or even an OS that you do not have the legal right to be in possession of or use of on your machine. be ready to go to jail soon after you start something with them.

 

If you start shart with a big boy...you'd best be squeaky clean to begin with. You also had best have the funds and time to commit to a very long process. Because they will draw it out as long as they can. And, you better have an air tight claim too. They have. They do. And, they will likely continue to get away with it. Because, those with the ability to hold them accountable don't care. And, those who care for the most part don't have the ability (or the drive) to see it through.

 

There may come a point when they mess up too badly. To where it reflects poorly on your local government to not go after them. But, I don't think this is nearly enough to get that ball rolling, when big electric, or big oil do stuff far worse then this to their customers each year and no one bats an eyelash.

 

It does suck, and thanks for the warning. Heck I have not enjoyed anything they have produced for sometime. And this is a final nail in the coffin for me ever playing one of their games again. And, if you got the ballz resources and ability to go after them...more power to you. But, otherwise..watcha gana do?


 

Qualifiers for failing to deliver on story (in a supposedly story driven MMORPG):
If my character starts out ship wrecked on a beach.
If my character has amnesia; But, is also somehow the chosen one.
If my character has a place of origin that they will likely never set foot in until mid-high level.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 774

9/29/13 12:25:31 AM#30

Damn again? This happened not that long ago you would think they would have fixed the damn problem already. Seriously it is like Turbine/WN is actively trying to kill off DDO, can't say for their other games but this is what it looks like to me for DDO and all the crappy FOS changes not to mention the enhancement pass/nerf.

 

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  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 774

9/29/13 12:30:46 AM#31
Originally posted by Helleri

*SNIP*

There may come a point when they mess up too badly. To where it reflects poorly on your local government to not go after them. But, I don't think this is nearly enough to get that ball rolling, when big electric, or big oil do stuff far worse then this to their customers each year and no one bats an eyelash.

 

*SNIP*

 

While you have a point please do not compare WB/Turbine to big oil and other huge energy related organizations otherwise the rest of your post looses all credibility.

case: Coolermaster HAF932
PSU: Antec EA 750watt
RAM: 2x2g G-SKILL DDR3-1600mhz 9-9-9-24
Mb:Gigabyte GA-P55-UD4P
CPU: i5-750 @4ghz
GPU: gtx msi N760 TF 2GD5/OC
cooling: Noctua NH-D14
storage: seagate 600 240GB SSD, 500GB x7200rpm HDD

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2500

9/29/13 12:35:28 AM#32
Originally posted by BMBender
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
And paying overdraft fees, for example, are damages caused by this billing error. This could add up quite a bit in a lawsuit, not to mention if there are legal fees to pay or punitive damages. Looks like trouble brewing for sure.

 I don't want to imagine the amount of overdraft fees that would happen to these customers.

yea it's gonna be a long week for T billing.   As far as the person talking about stealing, for that to stick you have to prove intent.

however damages on the other hand particularly if ones credit rating got jacked up after the account drain then a legit bill got missed....

 If you take money from someone's account without authorization/consent you're stealing. Also remember that this is not the first time Turbine/Warner Bro. has done this either.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Siug

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 971

9/29/13 12:48:52 AM#33
Pathetic really.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5492

9/29/13 1:00:04 AM#34
That sucks. I hope you all get it straightened out. I've never had the problems with billing. There was a similar issue several years ago as well, and I remember the thing with Funcom too. I was subbed to AoC at the time. I made it through those unscathed. Now I pay Wells Fargo to deal with this crap for me. Even so hassling that out on the phone would really make me grumpy.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  huntersam

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/07
Posts: 147

9/29/13 1:11:18 AM#35
Originally posted by BingoBongBango
Originally posted by Helleri

This is why I always pay with game cards, or pre-paid gift cards...I simply do not trust these companies with my information. And, especially not Turbine.

 

Thing is, any one who had made an account with them - by the simple act of having Turbine's software on said users machine - had given them exoneration from this. And, from anything they might do in the future. Take a look at this excerpt from their EULA:

 
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME CLIENT OR ANY USE THEREOF, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY LOSS OF DATA OR GOODWILL, DISRUPTION OF SERVICE OR CLAIMS OF THIRD PARTIES. IN NO EVENT SHALL TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, LIQUIDATED, OR OTHER CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, WHETHER UNDER CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), STRICT LIABILITY OR ANY OTHER THEORY OF LIABILITY, ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE GAME (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE GAME CLIENT). THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS SHALL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS OF ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE. In no event shall Turbine's aggregate liability, whether arising in contract, tort, strict liability or otherwise, exceed the total fees paid by you to Turbine during the six (6) months immediately prior to the time such claim arose.
 
Not only that but it's users are pretty much required to defend their honor, no matter what and not complain (another excerpt):
 
INDEMNIFICATION. YOU HEREBY AGREE TO DEFEND, INDEMNIFY AND HOLD HARMLESS TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES AND AFFILIATES, FROM AND AGAINST ANY CLAIM, LIABILITY, INJURY, DAMAGE, LOSS OR EXPENSE (INCLUDING REASONABLE ATTORNEYS' FEES) INCURRED AS A RESULT OF, ARISING FROM, OR RELATING TO YOUR USE OF THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME CLIENT.
 
And, many EULA/TOS across the MMORPG board are a lot like this one...If the OP has an active account with turbine (As in having their software on a computer that the OP owns), then the OP just violated their EULA with this thread. Not, trying to be a jerk about it. Just saying, that is the extent of your lack of freedoms when you play many MMORPG's. It is insane and it should be illegal. And, they should not be able to get away with this un-scaved and just sweep it under the rug...But, they will. And, if you don't like it. tough cookies.
 
 
...I have said it before and will say it again
 
Totally hear what you are saying .... suck a lot but very very true .... how many of us just click the accept button on EULA's .... and don't see you as being a jerk ... its great information ..

 

 

however in the UK we have thew unfair contracts ande causes act and EULA have never been tested in court because there is a very good chance they would be defeated .

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

9/29/13 1:13:26 AM#36
 

 

however in the UK we have thew unfair contracts ande causes act and EULA have never been tested in court because there is a very good chance they would be defeated .

Yea that stuff doesn't get tested much on the other side of the pond either.  The bluff tactics works just as well on us as you guys :D

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 724

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

9/29/13 1:19:06 AM#37
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Helleri

*SNIP*

There may come a point when they mess up too badly. To where it reflects poorly on your local government to not go after them. But, I don't think this is nearly enough to get that ball rolling, when big electric, or big oil do stuff far worse then this to their customers each year and no one bats an eyelash.

 

*SNIP*

 

While you have a point please do not compare WB/Turbine to big oil and other huge energy related organizations otherwise the rest of your post looses all credibility.

Time Warner made almost 30bil last year for having been founded in 1990. And, General Electric thereabouts of 147.5bil last year and it was founded around 1890)....And, BP made the most last year (around 390bil) and they go back as far as what 1919? and all of their entertainment subsidies did about on par with each other level for level. That is a perfectly reasonable scalable comparison. Given the scalable blunders customer service wise on part of all parties in recent times. And everything on these forums without direct evidence can only be taken as opinion and digest any way...

 

So I goto ask, What exactly is this credibility I have lost and why?

Qualifiers for failing to deliver on story (in a supposedly story driven MMORPG):
If my character starts out ship wrecked on a beach.
If my character has amnesia; But, is also somehow the chosen one.
If my character has a place of origin that they will likely never set foot in until mid-high level.

  Nogard666

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/29/13
Posts: 1

9/29/13 9:55:36 AM#38
Originally posted by Helleri

Even though these are boiler plate contracts, enforceability (or lack thereof), depends on the state, region, or province you are in, the court the matter is heard through, And a really good argument on either side. If you did or do any of the following:

 

- Pay them utilizing a line of credit not in your name.

- Install their software on a machine that you can not prove ownership of.

- Show/Have no substantial evidence of your claims.

- Agree to their ToS/EULA when not of age to legally do so where you live.

- Did not allow for adequate time according to your local laws for a resolution to the issue to be reached outside of court.

 

Any claim you or anyone would make on your behalf is substantially weaker. Especially if the company makes the ToS/EULA publicly available before the point of having to agree to it to proceed with use of their product (which Turbine does on their website, though it is difficult to navigate to without typing it into google).

 

The biggest reason that they will get away with it is because a heavy chunk of their users,are using their service illegally (or at the very least in a way that is against their explicit terms/conditions of use). If you go after them for whatever reason, they will do everything in their power to find fault with you.And, these are big boys. They won't play nice. If you have one song, movie, game or even an OS that you do not have the legal right to be in possession of or use of on your machine. be ready to go to jail soon after you start something with them.

 

If you start shart with a big boy...you'd best be squeaky clean to begin with. You also had best have the funds and time to commit to a very long process. Because they will draw it out as long as they can. And, you better have an air tight claim too. They have. They do. And, they will likely continue to get away with it. Because, those with the ability to hold them accountable don't care. And, those who care for the most part don't have the ability (or the drive) to see it through.

 

There may come a point when they mess up too badly. To where it reflects poorly on your local government to not go after them. But, I don't think this is nearly enough to get that ball rolling, when big electric, or big oil do stuff far worse then this to their customers each year and no one bats an eyelash.

 

It does suck, and thanks for the warning. Heck I have not enjoyed anything they have produced for sometime. And this is a final nail in the coffin for me ever playing one of their games again. And, if you got the ballz resources and ability to go after them...more power to you. But, otherwise..watcha gana do?


 

 

Tell me, on what legal ground would they have for searching my computer for music and such based on a lawsuit that would be over them illegally (note, it is only illegal if they do not make reparations for any and all charges and fees that are a direct result of this over charging, similar things have happened with other online billing systems before and they only had to pay any and all charges and fees that were a result of the over charging/multiple charging) charging my bank account to much? Any lawyer worth his degree can easily prevent them from searching my PC and can have anything they may bring up dismissed due to them not having any legal right to search  my PC. As for how solid the ToS/EULA may be, it is only as solid as those signs that stores put up claiming they are not responsible for damage done by carts. Those signs are 100% incorrect and are only there to fool people. Laws require places of business keep their lots free and clear of all debris and carts are legally debris. However because sheeple always believe what they read they do not bother to actually go out and learn anything different.  No ToS/EULA in the world makes the company immune to the law in any way. Therefore any claims brought to court would not be weakened by them. As far as funds and time to commit to any legal actions, something on this scale would likely become a class action suit which would greatly reduce the cost on all parts, including WB as once it reaches class action status then any person affected by this billing mistake who does not join can be denied the ability to file a single claim against WB separate from the class action suit.

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/29/13 11:46:51 AM#39


Originally posted by PWN_FACE
Those EULAs are there just to cow people into thinking they don't have legal rights or that they've signed them away.


This.

Besides, as i have said elsewhere already, EULAs aren't necessarily (or better: generally) binding in any way anyways.
Companies, almost by definition, want to limit their accountability to zero.
So they try to impose "contracts" on customers which give them all rights (e.g. to charge you recurring fees) while at the same time denying the customer any of HIS rights.
Yet, what many people forget is that certain customer right's can not be denied in the first place (which these are depend on the local laws) rendering the whole (or at least the "offending" parts of the) EULA null and void.

As was said, companies want to discourage people from taking legal action against them, that's all there is to it.

  Kazuhiro

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/07
Posts: 388

9/29/13 1:34:43 PM#40
Originally posted by grimgryphon
Originally posted by BingoBongBango

 

and thank goodness you are F2P .. your money is safe

I'm pretty sure the words "money", "safe", and "FTP" should never be used in the same sentence.

I see what you did there. Well done.

JeroKane: In TSW your gear has NO stats whatsoever! But only via trinkets and talismans.

Myself: Please, stop posting, I can't breath I'm laughing so hard at that statement.

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