Trending Games | ArcheAge | World of Warcraft | Elder Scrolls Online | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,923,650 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,317,275
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are there really more paying customers?

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search
89 posts found
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/27/13 9:51:22 AM#61
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kyleran

Is there any proof that whales really exist, or in any substantial numbers?

Is there any published information that game A has X number of whales who typically spend X number of dollars, perhaps broken down into tiers such as >10K, 5K- 10K, etc?

I'm starting to think they are more a thing of legend. I wonder how much their spending is compared to the under 10 buck a month club?

I'd post links but, truthfully, I don't think you guys really want answers. That could be the only possible reason why you ask the same questions over and over again about F2P and then, not only reject industry-accepted data sources for the information, but completely forget that the discussion even existed by the next thread. 

 

Truthfully, I think you've got nothing.  Or at least what you have are marketing studies based on samples, theories and conjectures, but hard data from the people who make these games I'm going to guess you can't come up with.

The fact you dismiss me by saying I'm rejecting "industry-accepted" data almost guarentees this.  If the industry has proven anything, they certainly don't know how to recreate WOW, heck, they rarely can match EVE or the success of the earlier MMORPGs.   So don't flout the industry prowess in front of me, I don't see much of it in the MMORPG space.

So if you have something. put it up, or point me to where it was posted previously.  I suspect much like Devios links, they won't really provide what I was asking for, I don't think the information I am looking for really exists, or....if it does its not public knowledge and is something you have to pay a significant fee for.

I'm not trying to prove F2P is a bad model here, I'm trying to find out how real claims like Nairus makes that the whales fund his games is really true or not.  No doubt they account for some percentage of the total revenue, lets say some survey states its around 33%, if that's the figure then great, means that 66% is funded by those willing to pay, just not pay a fortune.

It seems to me there are two opportunities for F2P game designers, one, add in incentives to encourage the non-payers to start paying, and they are the greatest segment of the player base, but might likely be very difficult to cross the line into the payer category. (see Narius for a great example, he's not paying, ever)

The other opportunity is to find ways to convince those who will pay (not the whales, they've proven they're marketable) to pay more.

Let's say that 66% of non whales currently averages less than 10.00 a month.  It behooves the developer to find a way to encourage them to pay 20.00 a month, since they've already proven they're willing to pay, and are likely far easier to win over to paying more (if the value's there) than the totally F2P gamer.

Now if it turns out that whales account for 90% of the revenue, well than all decisions should be based on what they need and the F2Pers only given enough consideration to keep them playing (to provide entertainment for the paying customers) but outside of that their desires can largely be ignored.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1153

9/27/13 9:52:59 AM#62
Originally posted by

I'm actually not trying to attack the F2P model, I just wonder if the small buyer actually pays more than what people think they do.  (ignore those who pay nothing for the moment, they are not part of the discussion)

Just show me the numbers if you have them, my guess is they really don't exist and much of what is believed is based more on conjecture and legend than any hard data.

 

(Western) F2P Games that have a subscription option make over half of the money via the subscription. However, when we look at the microtransactional model (for games that only have that, or games that have both) it is clear that large spenders (or whales) spend a disproportional amount of money. The reality is that the small buyer generally gravitates towards the subscription (which provdes them more value for thier limited funds), and that the large buyer generally gravitates towards microtransactions (which leverage their additional buying power). The reason that games want both systems, is because this basically doubles the revenue, for the same product.

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1380

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

9/27/13 10:00:01 AM#63
It amazes me people can find extra cash to lavishly dump into the gaming world.  After paying all my regular bills and the ever rising in increments internet bill I'm lucky if I can afford a frozen Banquet dinner.

Next time if they ask your name tell them "Your Overlord." There's nothing more satisfying than an Arby's employee repeatedly yelling over the munching masses, "Your Overlord's classic cheddar is up!!!"

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/27/13 10:32:00 AM#64


Originally posted by Kyleran
I'm actually not trying to attack the F2P model, I just wonder if the small buyer actually pays more than what people think they do.  (ignore those who pay nothing for the moment, they are not part of the discussion)

Just show me the numbers if you have them, my guess is they really don't exist and much of what is believed is based more on conjecture and legend than any hard data.




You're wrong about them not existing. Here's an article that centers around Whales, and their social habits, which includes an interview with one.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/14/whales-and-why-social-gamers-are-just-gamers/

The article also brings up something that I haven't seen mentioned, which is the definition of whales. In social online games outside of Facebook, the whale could be a person who spends $100 or more. In Facebook games like Candy Crush, $25 would get you the title of whale.

Forbes has an article on the demographics of whales.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/08/28/mobile-gamings-whales-overwhelmingly-male-spend-big-on-all-types-of-video-games/

Here's an article from Kotaku on just who these whales are.

http://kotaku.com/who-are-the-whales-driving-free-to-play-gaming-youd-1197333118

The Kotaku article references a study on the demographics of whales, probably the same one that Forbes references.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-08-22-two-thirds-of-whales-are-males

None of this tells us how much they support MMORPGs though. Suppose 2% to 5% of the population supports 25% of the revenue generated in a game. That still leaves 75% of the game's revenue to the rest of the players.

Honestly, I'm not sure why it matters that they exist. If they exist now, they've always existed. It doesn't answer whether or not MMORPGs are making more money now with more players.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/27/13 11:44:40 AM#65
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kyleran

Is there any proof that whales really exist, or in any substantial numbers?

Is there any published information that game A has X number of whales who typically spend X number of dollars, perhaps broken down into tiers such as >10K, 5K- 10K, etc?

I'm starting to think they are more a thing of legend. I wonder how much their spending is compared to the under 10 buck a month club?

I'd post links but, truthfully, I don't think you guys really want answers. That could be the only possible reason why you ask the same questions over and over again about F2P and then, not only reject industry-accepted data sources for the information, but completely forget that the discussion even existed by the next thread. 

Truthfully, I think you've got nothing.  Or at least what you have are marketing studies based on samples, theories and conjectures, but hard data from the people who make these games I'm going to guess you can't come up with.

Other than the Battlefield Heroes and Puzzle Pirates data that I have repeatedly posted over the past several years? 

You guys really need to start researching stuff you want to discuss. Having to wade all the way back to the basics to explain the common knowledge stuff - stuff you should already know after four or so years of reading these posts - is a waste of everyone's time. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/27/13 11:55:50 AM#66
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kyleran

Is there any proof that whales really exist, or in any substantial numbers?

Is there any published information that game A has X number of whales who typically spend X number of dollars, perhaps broken down into tiers such as >10K, 5K- 10K, etc?

I'm starting to think they are more a thing of legend. I wonder how much their spending is compared to the under 10 buck a month club?

I'd post links but, truthfully, I don't think you guys really want answers. That could be the only possible reason why you ask the same questions over and over again about F2P and then, not only reject industry-accepted data sources for the information, but completely forget that the discussion even existed by the next thread. 

Truthfully, I think you've got nothing.  Or at least what you have are marketing studies based on samples, theories and conjectures, but hard data from the people who make these games I'm going to guess you can't come up with.

Other than the Battlefield Heroes and Puzzle Pirates data that I have repeatedly posted over the past several years? 

You guys really need to start researching stuff you want to discuss. Having to wade all the way back to the basics to explain the common knowledge stuff - stuff you should already know after four or so years of reading these posts - is a waste of everyone's time. 

I was right, you've got nothing, and decide to insult my researching skills to close the discussion.  That's OK , we can end it here, perhaps someone else will find come up with something useful.

But seriously Puzzle Pirates and Battlefield Heroes, that's the best you've got?

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3177

9/27/13 12:04:48 PM#67

"F2P games make far more money than P2P games"

 

I have often seen this claim made, here on these forums and all over the internet. It is very misleading.

 

What is usually meant is that the F2P games industry makes far more money than the P2P games industry IN TOTAL. No surprise there, you're comparing the earnings of a tiny handful of P2P games with those of literally 1000's of F2P games across all genres.

 

There are no apples-to-apples comparisons available. There are no game developers who are prepared to reveal the earnings of their individual games, at best they'll give percentage changes in earnings per period.

 

The only "reliable" and "widely quoted" (as opposed to "widely accepted") figures seem to be those produced by 3rd party companies who make their living selling "data, analysis and marketing strategies" to people who want a slice of this "multi-billion dollar F2P revenue opportunity". I smell snake-oil...

 

Even the pretty graphic used earlier in this thread was produced by GlobalCollect, a company that makes their money from... processing internet payments ! Would they lie about the numbers to boost their potential client list ? Noooooo.... of course not. But under close scrutiny by some auditors, they may admit to having made a few "honest mistakes" in their trends analysis, or perhaps an overly aggressive trend prediction or blah, blah, blah....

 

 

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3177

9/27/13 12:32:32 PM#68
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
It amazes me people can find extra cash to lavishly dump into the gaming world.  After paying all my regular bills and the ever rising in increments internet bill I'm lucky if I can afford a frozen Banquet dinner.

Did you know that there were around 12 million millionaires in the world last year ?

Did you know 1.5% of adults in the US are millionaires ?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10158420/A-record-breaking-number-of-millionaires-in-the-world.html

 

There are vastly more poor people in the world, but we never count them, because it's too expensive. And besides, nobody is going to pay you to count how many people they can't sell stuff to...

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

9/27/13 12:39:55 PM#69
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
It amazes me people can find extra cash to lavishly dump into the gaming world.  After paying all my regular bills and the ever rising in increments internet bill I'm lucky if I can afford a frozen Banquet dinner.

Did you know that there were around 12 million millionaires in the world last year ?

Did you know 1.5% of adults in the US are millionaires ?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10158420/A-record-breaking-number-of-millionaires-in-the-world.html

 

There are vastly more poor people in the world, but we never count them, because it's too expensive. And besides, nobody is going to pay you to count how many people they can't sell stuff to...

If game devs catered to that crowd, they wouldn't make any money, how does that help?

No money means no game, its that easy

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/27/13 1:39:13 PM#70
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The only "reliable" and "widely quoted" (as opposed to "widely accepted") figures seem to be those produced by 3rd party companies who make their living selling "data, analysis and marketing strategies" to people who want a slice of this "multi-billion dollar F2P revenue opportunity". I smell snake-oil...

Even the pretty graphic used earlier in this thread was produced by GlobalCollect, a company that makes their money from... processing internet payments ! Would they lie about the numbers to boost their potential client list ? Noooooo.... of course not. But under close scrutiny by some auditors, they may admit to having made a few "honest mistakes" in their trends analysis, or perhaps an overly aggressive trend prediction or blah, blah, blah....

This isn't their first year producing those reports. If it was BS, the industry would have 1) called it out in the first year and 2) not continued buying it each year thereafter.

MMO developers don't live in a vaccuum. They use PlaySpan, GlobalCollect and other services, so they have their own data to compare with the data in the reports. Developers also *gasp* talk to one another and move around to different companies in the industry, which means devs are also able to compare data from one source to another. As a result, the industry knows how valid the data is and they are willing to pony up the tens of thousands of dollars to have these DFC, NewZoo, SuperData, etc reports. 

So if the companies that contribute data to these reports are seeing the data as valid, continuing to buy the reports, and benefiting from the data, then maybe ... just maybe... they're valid info. But you don't want to believe that, so 'snake oil' is your only argument against it. 

That's frustrating. It's frustrating because when one group of people refuses to accept anything other than what they already believe, little (if any) progress can be made in discussion on the topic. 

 

Let's move past this ridiculous tinfoilhattery, please?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1878

9/27/13 1:52:12 PM#71
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
It amazes me people can find extra cash to lavishly dump into the gaming world.  After paying all my regular bills and the ever rising in increments internet bill I'm lucky if I can afford a frozen Banquet dinner.

Not everyone is you?  Maybe we are, but I'm pretty sure we're not.

 

While I could spend a great deal more on gaming than I do, I'm not inclined to do so as I have other hobbies beyond gaming.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/27/13 2:04:01 PM#72
nm

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

 
OP  9/27/13 2:36:54 PM#73
Lol, I do know a sickening amount of people were buying pretty ponies when Neverwinter first opened up. Seemed like ever 2 seconds someone was awarded one since they announced it.
  sfc1971

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 423

9/27/13 2:53:23 PM#74
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Well I am trying to keep this clean. The focus of my post is really to gauge if there are really more paying customers now in MMORPGs then before. We know more players play now then before there is a bigger market and most MMORPGs are free. If we count the rumored 40% of the player base that P2P in F2P and compared it to the peaks of pre-WoW P2P games is there a drastic difference in paying customers? This is excluding WoW itself.

When do you count as before?

The original Everquest was probably the first big commercial MMORPG, others came before but they never got mainstream attention.

And EQ never had more then a million players.

There were other MMO's but they peaked at a few hundred thousand if they were lucky.

Then WoW came along and peaked at 12 million. Some simple math wll tell you that WoW didn't just take a large share of the pie, it enlarged the pie.

Believe it or not, when SWG launched people claimed that it could only canabalize SEO other games, that 1 million people was the max number of gamers and any new game would have to take gamers away from other games.

But there weren't 12 million MMO gamers BEFORE WoW. People who never played an MMO, played WoW.

Since then the market has grown, just see the number of listed game but no game has no come close to what WoW did, not even GW2. 

You have to remember that WoW is near a decade old. Back then many people were still on dialup. EQ launched in a time when SOE didn't even think of the option to pay with anything else then a Credit Card.

It was a different age.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1878

9/27/13 3:01:04 PM#75
Originally posted by sfc1971
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Well I am trying to keep this clean. The focus of my post is really to gauge if there are really more paying customers now in MMORPGs then before. We know more players play now then before there is a bigger market and most MMORPGs are free. If we count the rumored 40% of the player base that P2P in F2P and compared it to the peaks of pre-WoW P2P games is there a drastic difference in paying customers? This is excluding WoW itself.

When do you count as before?

The original Everquest was probably the first big commercial MMORPG, others came before but they never got mainstream attention.

And EQ never had more then a million players.

There were other MMO's but they peaked at a few hundred thousand if they were lucky.

Then WoW came along and peaked at 12 million. Some simple math wll tell you that WoW didn't just take a large share of the pie, it enlarged the pie.

Believe it or not, when SWG launched people claimed that it could only canabalize SEO other games, that 1 million people was the max number of gamers and any new game would have to take gamers away from other games.

But there weren't 12 million MMO gamers BEFORE WoW. People who never played an MMO, played WoW.

Since then the market has grown, just see the number of listed game but no game has no come close to what WoW did, not even GW2. 

You have to remember that WoW is near a decade old. Back then many people were still on dialup. EQ launched in a time when SOE didn't even think of the option to pay with anything else then a Credit Card.

It was a different age.

EQ's peak was below 450k subs. Which is less than EVE's current numbers. So EQ, the biggest of the time, is still less than EVE which is not the biggest of it's time. I'm not even sure where to rank EVE.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/27/13 4:33:42 PM#76
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Lol, I do know a sickening amount of people were buying pretty ponies when Neverwinter first opened up. Seemed like ever 2 seconds someone was awarded one since they announced it.

Mounts and hats have massive appeal.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
9/27/13 4:48:40 PM#77
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Lol, I do know a sickening amount of people were buying pretty ponies when Neverwinter first opened up. Seemed like ever 2 seconds someone was awarded one since they announced it.

Mounts and hats have massive appeal.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

9/27/13 4:58:11 PM#78
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Lol, I do know a sickening amount of people were buying pretty ponies when Neverwinter first opened up. Seemed like ever 2 seconds someone was awarded one since they announced it.

The difference there, is a very large percentage of people were buying that stuff with duped/exploit currency.

There was a HUGE exploit that Cryptic did not bother to fix for more than a month after it was reported, and it allow people to generate billions of astral diamonds. (Which were then converted into Zen and used to buy out the cash shop.)

It was pretty funny actually: you'd think a company would try to quickly fix a major exploit that was costing them money, but not Cryptic.

Pretty much says it all about Cryptic: they are too incompetent to even help themselves.

 

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3177

9/27/13 6:36:47 PM#79
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The only "reliable" and "widely quoted" (as opposed to "widely accepted") figures seem to be those produced by 3rd party companies who make their living selling "data, analysis and marketing strategies" to people who want a slice of this "multi-billion dollar F2P revenue opportunity". I smell snake-oil...

Even the pretty graphic used earlier in this thread was produced by GlobalCollect, a company that makes their money from... processing internet payments ! Would they lie about the numbers to boost their potential client list ? Noooooo.... of course not. But under close scrutiny by some auditors, they may admit to having made a few "honest mistakes" in their trends analysis, or perhaps an overly aggressive trend prediction or blah, blah, blah....

This isn't their first year producing those reports. If it was BS, the industry would have 1) called it out in the first year and 2) not continued buying it each year thereafter.

MMO developers don't live in a vaccuum. They use PlaySpan, GlobalCollect and other services, so they have their own data to compare with the data in the reports. Developers also *gasp* talk to one another and move around to different companies in the industry, which means devs are also able to compare data from one source to another. As a result, the industry knows how valid the data is and they are willing to pony up the tens of thousands of dollars to have these DFC, NewZoo, SuperData, etc reports. 

So if the companies that contribute data to these reports are seeing the data as valid, continuing to buy the reports, and benefiting from the data, then maybe ... just maybe... they're valid info. But you don't want to believe that, so 'snake oil' is your only argument against it. 

That's frustrating. It's frustrating because when one group of people refuses to accept anything other than what they already believe, little (if any) progress can be made in discussion on the topic. 

 

Let's move past this ridiculous tinfoilhattery, please?

 

 

OK, so if all the major MMO developers are buying these reports and find the numbers completely convincing, how is it that they are almost all ignoring it when it comes to launching new games ?

Why is FFXIV, Wildstar and ESO all launching as sub based games ? Why not go B2P with a cash shop (i.e. upfront purchase and then standard F2P afterwards) ? 

Why insist on launching as sub-based, when the whole industry "agrees" that F2P would make more money ?

Something doesn't add up here....

 

The message that these upcoming launches are sending is: "Go for the sub-based model, it makes more money. But only if you can keep X number of subscribers. If not, convert to F2P..."

  Deivos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1716

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

9/27/13 7:24:05 PM#80

You're using a leap in logic and argument. I don't think we were ever stating F2P works better than P2P. We were clarifying how F2P works.

 

Companies believing that it works, and trusting in the metrics behind it, does not mean they believe it's the only valid form of service, nor that it reaches the entirely same user base.

 

And that's an important differentiation itself. The player base that would actively subscribe to an MMO does not completely overlap with one that would play a 'free' game. The differences in how content is provided and how the game experience is encapsulated can differentiate strongly enough that players become polarized on the type of game based on the billing mechanics.

 

You can see that very notion in action within this thread, with people writing off F2P as a valid form of subscription or alternatively advocating it.

 

A subscription based game comes attached with the notion of promises. The fact that the user is paying consistently for the right to play the game, gives them also the sense that they are entitled to any current or future content without it taking an extra charge. Developers are aware of this notion and they are also aware that it has been the source of a lot of communal backlash in the past about how they go about their expansion and convenience content.

 

What's changed on that end would perhaps be the increased propensity for the 'freemium' model in MMOs. Splitting the difference between free to play and subscribing, freemium grants players the ability to often play a culled or constricted version of a title and then put a premium level over it that acts like the 'full version' akin to playing it as a more usual pay to play model.

 

More or less, for the developers that are upcoming with the pay to play model, they are doing it because they want to provide that ostensibly more unified experience and a playerbase that is willing to remain whole-hog on their content.

FFXIV, Wildstar, and ESO are all titles that deliver particular experiences that were not designed to be heavily impacted by external conveniences or incentives to differentiate the player base. Especially in the case of ESO where you have a factional conflict in the middle of everything, the developer is likely making sure it can't be called to task for any potential imbalances to the PvP.

 

I mean, take Planetside 2 for example. That game is both free to play and touts asymmetrical warfare. There will rather literally be no end to the complaining about the balance in that game even after it eventually shuts down in who knows how many years.

 

To avoid that kind of issue, it's a fairly sensible approach to flip to a pay to play model and remove any potential influencing factors to how much xp, resources, rewards, gear, etc you can accrue external to simply playing the game. It helps keep the focus on achievement through the game play itself and it helps negate the extra concerns (real or fake) about game balance.

 

EDIT: And seeing as Lok already responded to Kyl I dun think I need to respond to the previous question. Just noting so one does not think I'm ignoring them.  If they feel they haven't been answered sufficiently, then I can respond at request.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search