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Hardware  » Valve/nvidia develop next gaming platform with steamOS slap in face for AMD users?

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44 posts found
  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2609

9/27/13 7:04:14 AM#21
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Cleffy
SteamOS is developed using steam. AMD does not even have graphics drivers for Linux.

 

Yes they do.

AMD even has open source drivers for linux.

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  Traugar

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 168

9/27/13 7:13:46 AM#22
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Its only that Nvidia didnt have proper Linux drivers. And now since Valve is behind they are shifting gear to privide good drivers.

Thats all what this news means.

Sorry, in this day and age of marketing double talk, you sometime need to read between lines.

 

ps

I think AMD is slowly backing down from gfx competition.

Where did you ever get the idea that Nvidia didn't have proper linux drivers?  From a desktop perspective Nvidia proprietary drivers work much better than AMD.  When running AMD proprietary drivers you usually have to hold back catalyst or xorg updates much more often than Nvidia.  The only area that was Nvidia's weak point was Optimus, and even there the community furnished Bumblebee and Primus.  Nvidia is now correcting the issue (I like to think due to comments made by Torvalds).  But the point is Nvidia keeps the proprietary driver updated really well. The open source drivers for both work well for 2d and the AMD is fairly well with 3d, but not nearly good enough for gaming. 

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1303

9/27/13 7:15:29 AM#23

Both XBOne and PS4 will be using AMD video cards, which is why NVidia has been on the "consoles are inferior" train lately and is hopping on the SteamOS platform. On the other hand, AMD wants next-gen consoles to succeed, so they're pushing in the opposite direction.

Nothing has changed, really. PC games are still prettier, consoles are still cheaper and both GPU manufacturers will try to release good Linux drivers if it becomes a notable gaming platform.

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

9/27/13 8:25:24 AM#24

What do you people don't understand about the SteamOS-thingy? You won't be able to play the games on a machine with SteamOS, but you'll need a Windows gaming rig in addition. The machine running SteamOS is only a client.

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1303

9/27/13 9:17:35 AM#25
Originally posted by Yalexy

What do you people don't understand about the SteamOS-thingy? You won't be able to play the games on a machine with SteamOS, but you'll need a Windows gaming rig in addition. The machine running SteamOS is only a client.

No, it can both run games natively and stream Windows games. From the official site:

"Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014."

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/27/13 9:40:17 AM#26


Originally posted by Yalexy
What do you people don't understand about the SteamOS-thingy? You won't be able to play the games on a machine with SteamOS, but you'll need a Windows gaming rig in addition. The machine running SteamOS is only a client.


You've not read the information available, or you've misunderstood what's going one.

There are three tiers to their initiative.

Tier 1 : A streaming box, which allows you to stream games from a desktop machine. The client machine will run Steam, but it could be running Steam on SteamOS/Linux, or Windows. This is the $99 option.

Tier 2 : A gaming console, running SteamOS. Games will download, install and execute on the console. Another machine is not needed. This is the $300 option.

Tier 3 : Players or other manufacturers can build machines with any specifications they want, that runs the SteamOS. Games will download, install and execute on that machine. This is probably going to be the most expensive option, because people can put whatever hardware they want in there, as long as the hardware manufacturers have Linux device drivers. It's looking like both AMD and Nvidia are going to beef up their Linux support, possibly because Valve is focusing on Linux gaming.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Rusque

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1721

9/27/13 9:50:24 AM#27

Pretty funny that Steam is taking the Microsoft approach while Microsoft took the Sony/Apple approach with their console.

 

Steam supplies OS, hardware can be from anyone - PC style.

MS Xbox supplies OS and proprietary hardware, no one else can make but them - Apple/Sony style

In the meanwhile, Nintendo is run by re-re's who will likely release a console that has a controller that responds to ear wax . . . because "innovation".

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5799

9/27/13 10:11:34 AM#28

The nvidia proprietary drivers already work pretty good.  It's the sound that needs a LOT of work.

Nvidia has a horrible relationship with the Linux development community. I think Valve and Nvidia need their good will and support to really make the project be a success. Thus, why Nvidia is suddenly capitulating, out of the blue, with publishing their specs and extending good will. Which is also why most people are dubious about their intents and follow through, and why Linus said he's cautiously optimistic, but unwilling to apologize to them yet for "the bird" incident.

The devil will be in the details.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Kilrain

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/03
Posts: 489

9/27/13 10:21:05 AM#29

even games that say "Optimized for Nvidia" still work perfectly fine with AMD, assuming that AMD took the time to make sure it worked. Don't worry about it. We're getting better video drivers for both Nvidia and AMD on Linux which is a super awesome thing. 

The only thing that "Optimized for Nvidia" means is that Nvidia is putting money into the project for publicity. Stop freaking out over nothing.

professional web programming and design.

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2528

 
OP  9/27/13 11:25:42 AM#30


Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Classicstar I just read a tech report on dutch site that steamOS will be optimized for nvidia users WTF? Can anybody explain me if i understand this wrong or is the industry this dumb and not neutral? I know its all about money that counts but if eventually only nvidia left for gamers thats also very bad for us gamers no choice seems insanely stupid in long run. I think gaming industry should always embrace both AMD and NVIDIA nomatter what i know this is not the case for years amny games which i btw boycot for years now that have nvidia logo on it and is ment to be played with nvidia card i dont buy. But valves plan is eventually if it succeed dismise whole MS OS as gaming platform(MS helping them with win8 btw:P) and in future we have almost no choice but going steamOS but they are OPTIMIZED FOR NVIDIA so in other words screw you AMD users you eather go nvidia or leave we don't care. Is there any truth in this what im saying here? I love abandon MS and go steamOS but if its nvidia main support and AMD users again have no optimized games for there cards on steam hardware ill boycot steam also. Your views on this guys?
Do you boycott consoles?

 

You do know they only use AMD gpu's. So I don't think that developer's are neglecting AMD.



Im a pc gamer i dont own consoles and next generation will also be neglected by me:)

Valve wants also control steam is DRM even small it limited your exploitation of it and im convinced this steambox and its steamOS will also be DRM and not as open as some hope for.

Future i see consoles-steambox with heavy drm(yes steambox compare to open pc will be heavy DRM)and dead pc and no real freedom anymore.

I don't see it so sunny as you guys.

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  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/27/13 1:05:33 PM#31


Originally posted by Classicstar

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Classicstar I just read a tech report on dutch site that steamOS will be optimized for nvidia users WTF? Can anybody explain me if i understand this wrong or is the industry this dumb and not neutral? I know its all about money that counts but if eventually only nvidia left for gamers thats also very bad for us gamers no choice seems insanely stupid in long run. I think gaming industry should always embrace both AMD and NVIDIA nomatter what i know this is not the case for years amny games which i btw boycot for years now that have nvidia logo on it and is ment to be played with nvidia card i dont buy. But valves plan is eventually if it succeed dismise whole MS OS as gaming platform(MS helping them with win8 btw:P) and in future we have almost no choice but going steamOS but they are OPTIMIZED FOR NVIDIA so in other words screw you AMD users you eather go nvidia or leave we don't care. Is there any truth in this what im saying here? I love abandon MS and go steamOS but if its nvidia main support and AMD users again have no optimized games for there cards on steam hardware ill boycot steam also. Your views on this guys?
Do you boycott consoles?

 

You do know they only use AMD gpu's. So I don't think that developer's are neglecting AMD.



Im a pc gamer i dont own consoles and next generation will also be neglected by me:)

Valve wants also control steam is DRM even small it limited your exploitation of it and im convinced this steambox and its steamOS will also be DRM and not as open as some hope for.

Future i see consoles-steambox with heavy drm(yes steambox compare to open pc will be heavy DRM)and dead pc and no real freedom anymore.

I don't see it so sunny as you guys.




Well, I guess it's a good thing that a point of view is based on belief, and not reality.

There are limits to how much "DRM" Valve can do with SteamOS. SteamOS is Linux, and there are legal limitations to what Valve can and cannot close off because they don't own it.

There's no reason to think that Steam's DRM will be anymore burdensome than their current DRM that runs in Windows. People will be able to download, install and run games. They'll be able to mod the games as well.

In the beta for the SteamMachine, per their FAQ, the beta testers will be able to hack the systems, load their own software or their own Linux distributions on the system, etc. This doesn't sound like the start of a DRM heavy scheme for world domination.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3806

9/27/13 2:17:50 PM#32

Hmm... leaving the interesting technical tidbits aside, isn't the steambox just a new console for PC games?

 

As a new OS in a regular  PC, I would only ever be interested in it if it provides a significant performance advantage over running the game through Windows. I guess intuitively we all think it would since we can see the overhead processes running in the background and we assume that they are impacting game performance negatively... I guess we'll find out just how much of a performance hit (or not) they are when we have a second OS we can run them on.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3400

9/27/13 3:24:13 PM#33


Originally posted by Iselin
Hmm... leaving the interesting technical tidbits aside, isn't the steambox just a new console for PC games?

 

As a new OS in a regular  PC, I would only ever be interested in it if it provides a significant performance advantage over running the game through Windows. I guess intuitively we all think it would since we can see the overhead processes running in the background and we assume that they are impacting game performance negatively... I guess we'll find out just how much of a performance hit (or not) they are when we have a second OS we can run them on.


As far as we know - the hardware half of SteamBox will just be a Small Form Factor PC with some various price/performance points. That means we can pretty much bet it will be x86 64-bit, probably DDR3, with at least some rudimentary generic audio chip (RealTek probably), ethernet+WiFi, probably Bluetooth for wireless controllers, and some measure of on-board storage (HDD or SSD). Even on the CPU side, it doesn't really matter if it's AMD or Intel - because both are x86 64-bit, one has more cores for less money, the other faster per core, but the functionality is basically the same.

The only really interesting parts are how are they handling the GPU (nVidia/AMD, maybe Intel?, maybe some combination), and the entirety of SteamOS.

As far as Windows vs Linux/SteamOS - at first expect Windows to win. It has the benefit of years of driver maturation and optimization, a high level DirectX API, and a road developer base. On exact same hardware it will take a bit for Linux/SteamOS to just catch up to that, let alone beat it on a general case (there will be some outliers that will get flaunted early on where Linux can really beat Windows, but on average I'd bet on Windows).

Now, aside from speed, there are some other clear advantages. Windows costs $100 per copy - SteamOS will be free. Most of the source code, by virtue of being based on Open Source material, will be available for SteamOS (for folks that get into that kind of thing) - that will make SteamOS much more moddable than Windows ever was.

And as an aside, for anything other than gaming, while I don't expect SteamOS to support MS Office, there are other peripherals that we take for granted. Drivers for nearly every piece of hardware out there (printers, WiFi adapters, audio devices, etc) are pretty ubiquitous for Windows, but can be scarce for Linux. It will be pretty frustrating if the hardware range is severely restricted, particularly for items like WiFi adapters, sound devices, accelerated support for storage devices, etc.

  barasawa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/05
Posts: 201

I have a wandering mind, but that's ok, it brings back presents.

9/27/13 3:36:23 PM#34

"Optimized For" just means that it's using code specific to that chip rather than the generic code that works for most chips. Optimized code tends to be faster, and often makes use of additional capabilities. It's simple to 'optimize' for many different platforms. Devs often have specific dlls (or whatever) in their program, each for a different 'optimization'. 

 

So when you see a program being declared as 'optimized' for some graphics chip or another, don't panic. First it means that if you have that type, you get bonus performance/features. If your's isn't listed, it may get it in a later update. Even if that doesn't happen, it will still work, and should work just fine.

 

Really, does it actually matter if you only get 112 fps and the other guy gets 113 fps?

 

Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7951

9/27/13 9:43:26 PM#35
@nitth exactly!
  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7951

9/27/13 9:52:20 PM#36
I would have dismissed Intel apu in the past in a heartbeat but now?mm not too sure,if it is using only one interrupt per device in there there is a lot of room left for better performance.but for this to happen Intel will have toi supply a web page or such since it isnt authorised toi ne donne via driver.web site will probable add tbe MSI variable un futur apu(i hope they dont brother with desktop monstre since se know theor potentiel.but apu is still a big ? Ans you might want toi gold off a bit before you count Intel out!i aint sûre they are as far as they let US believe from AMD apu!
  cnutemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/12
Posts: 232

9/27/13 9:56:01 PM#37
Originally posted by Classicstar

I just read a tech report on dutch site that steamOS will be optimized for nvidia users WTF?

Can anybody explain me if i understand this wrong or is the industry this dumb and not neutral?

I know its all about money that counts but if eventually only nvidia left for gamers thats also very bad for us gamers no choice seems insanely stupid in long run.

I think gaming industry should always embrace both AMD and NVIDIA nomatter what i know this is not the case for years amny games which i btw boycot for years now that have nvidia logo on it and is ment to be played with nvidia card i dont buy.

But valves plan is eventually if it succeed dismise whole MS OS as gaming platform(MS helping them with win8 btw:P) and in future we have almost no choice but going steamOS but they are OPTIMIZED FOR NVIDIA so in other words screw you AMD users you eather go nvidia or leave we don't care.

Is there any truth in this what im saying here?

I love abandon MS and go steamOS but if its nvidia main support and AMD users again have no optimized games for there cards on steam hardware ill boycot steam also.

Your views on this guys?

I think you're overreacting, people on these forums tend to lean toward doomsday scenarios after hearing any sort of vague news.  We need to wait and see how this will play out first.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3400

9/27/13 9:58:30 PM#38


Originally posted by Nitth
What do we have if they succeed? Basically the same as what windows is trying to do.
A closed operating system where you buy your games through a operating system store.

No, we would have an open and free operating system where you buy your games through a closed storefront.

It may be that Valve restricts the ability to run executables other than those obtained through Steam, but I kinda doubt they will because that defeats the entire purpose of touting an Open ecosystem and puts them nearly the same position as Windows. That hopefully means you will certain have Steam to purchase games through, and Valve would love for you to do so, but they won't restrict you from downloading or obtaining software via other means and running it as well. There's a lot of software out there for Linux

Now, that's a bit of conjecture, but no more than saying that it will be a closed operating system, and probably a bit closer to what reality will be because that's where Linux is now.

The big difference: Windows controls Windows, and they curate the Windows Store - but they don't restrict you to running only software through Windows Store. Valve does not control Linux, Valve is only providing a SteamOS layer on top of Linux to optimize games. Valve provides steam to get games similar to Windows Store. The fact that Valve doesn't control the OS, and is releasing SteamOS for free, is a world of difference -- but only if it works.

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

9/29/13 8:00:38 PM#39


Originally posted by Scalpless

Originally posted by Yalexy What do you people don't understand about the SteamOS-thingy? You won't be able to play the games on a machine with SteamOS, but you'll need a Windows gaming rig in addition. The machine running SteamOS is only a client.
No, it can both run games natively and stream Windows games. From the official site:

"Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014."


Yeah, some very old or rubbish games maybe. I wouldn't expect 1080p-gaming on a $99 SteamBox.


Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Yalexy
What do you people don't understand about the SteamOS-thingy? You won't be able to play the games on a machine with SteamOS, but you'll need a Windows gaming rig in addition. The machine running SteamOS is only a client.


You've not read the information available, or you've misunderstood what's going one.

There are three tiers to their initiative.

Tier 1 : A streaming box, which allows you to stream games from a desktop machine. The client machine will run Steam, but it could be running Steam on SteamOS/Linux, or Windows. This is the $99 option.

Tier 2 : A gaming console, running SteamOS. Games will download, install and execute on the console. Another machine is not needed. This is the $300 option.

Tier 3 : Players or other manufacturers can build machines with any specifications they want, that runs the SteamOS. Games will download, install and execute on that machine. This is probably going to be the most expensive option, because people can put whatever hardware they want in there, as long as the hardware manufacturers have Linux device drivers. It's looking like both AMD and Nvidia are going to beef up their Linux support, possibly because Valve is focusing on Linux gaming.

Link please, where you got these three tiers from. So far they only talked about their $99 box afaik.

And if they plan on selling the OS with players building their own machines, then they better make sure that they have a professiional support available, as you can't expect every hardware-setup to run flawlessly.

And then there's the big question of DirectX, which doesn't run on something else than Windows without problems.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2714

9/29/13 8:08:10 PM#40
Originally posted by Quizzical
Valve will optimize it for any significant graphics vendor willing to work with them.

I agree, why would you ever want to cut your potential customers by half? That's really bad marketing practice. Anyways, just because the product is going to be optimized for Nvidia doesn't mean that it's only going to be for Nvidia.

Another example: Most game developers optimize their products for a specific type of hardware (usually whatever the company uses).


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

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