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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What happened to crafting?

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54 posts found
  Yodi2007

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 167

9/25/13 11:18:55 PM#41

FFXIV has good crafting, but as another poster said it still gets trumped by endgame gear because the endgame stuff is easy to acquire. FFXIV's crafting requires other crafting class abilities to truly make it worth while. I mean im not filthy rich ( I only have 10 million gill on a legacy server).

Crafting is not longer an art in MMO's anymore its a bastard child none wants!

PS: Maybe FFXIV housing with patch 2.1 might make crafting viable again.....

Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  neorandom

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 1753

9/25/13 11:22:07 PM#42

vanilla wow had you crafting some of the good items in the game (armor weapons ammo alchemical stuff) all competative with group content gear to get you raiding for sets, and even some raid blueprints dropped for top notch epics to craft.

 

the community hated it, bitched constantly, and wow made crafting the mootness it is now.

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1356

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

9/27/13 9:07:50 AM#43
I think game makers think of crafting as an after thought.  I think crafting should be the main focus of a game.  Thus Minecraft is on my PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6EoRBvdVPQ

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1800

9/27/13 9:16:26 AM#44

When people say "meaningful crafting" are they actually referring to crafting or are you guys talking about "crafting driven economies?"

 

I ask because crafting has pretty much been lame in every game ever. It's usually just a button click, sometimes a mini-game that has little to do with that craft. I do leatherwork in real life and I've just never felt crafting in games was done in any way to represent actual crafts.

Even in Age of Wushu where you can paint, it's just a simple puzzle that moves around tiles. It could have been a blank paper in which you would draw with your mouse and would have to register how closely you match the original piece and based on that determine the quality of the painting you create. At least that would be meaningful to me.

But if this is a discussion about economies, then meh either way.

  Dirkin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 78

9/27/13 9:32:16 AM#45
Originally posted by 5Luck
Originally posted by Maurgrim
Vanguard have a robust crafting minigame onpar with SWG you should check it out.

IMO Vanguard is the game that ruined crafting. It was one of the 1st(that i played) that offered class "spheres" meaning yes you could not craft everything but your crafter was also a combatant. That is what changed things.

If you want a crafting economy there is no way around it. You need to have a crafting class. Not a mage with silk weaving but a choice between either a mage or a silk weaver.

Now I wont completly say vanguard was a bad crafting game. It wasnt. The crafting was fun and you ended up with rare-ish items through the system but again what it did do was remove the crafter as a 1st class and made it 2ndary.

 

Vanguard didn't make anything secondary, only separate. The different spheres are just independent of each other. I know plenty of characters that are max level crafters but have not done adventuring for more than a few hours. Of course you can level both up if you so choose as well, along with Diplomacy.

  SpottyGekko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

9/27/13 9:44:50 AM#46
Originally posted by Gallaid
Originally posted by zaxxon23
Originally posted by Theocritus
...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

 

MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

 

I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

No ! No ! No !

 

It's a very popular but totally false belief that there's ANY required relationship between "good crafting" and PVP.

 

Some examples:

  • "A Tale In The Desert" had the best crafting and gathering mini-games I have ever seen in an MMO. It had no combat of any kind.
  • SWG had the most complicated gathering, crafting, manufacturing and selling in any MMO ever made, yet PVP was very limited, entirely optional and ignored by the majority of the players. Decay removed items keeping the economy moving.
  • Fallen Earth and Vanguard both have good crafting systems, neither of those games have PVP-driven economies.
  • FFXIV:ARR has a very enjoyable crafting mechanic, even though the gathering is not exciting, and the crafted items are entirely optional. If you never used a crafted item, it wouldn't hinder you in any way.

 

Yes, if you want a "naturally driven" economy where there's constant demand for all crafted goods, then the rapid turnover caused by constant destructive warfare is an ideal mechanism. EVE is a case in point. It has a fantastic economy, but the actual crafting is abysmal. The fun part is the logistics and marketing.

 

I spend most of my time in FFXIV gathering or crafting, because I just love crafting.

In SWG, I spent ALL my time gathering and crafting, because I just love crafting. But in SWG my products were some of the best on the server and I derived a great deal of satisfaction from the recognition that I earned for my work.  

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

9/27/13 10:02:31 AM#47
Originally posted by Gallaid
 

The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. 

Do not agree at all.  A good decay system is the only thing a good crafting system would need.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/11/13 12:03:18 AM#48
Originally posted by Venger
Originally posted by Gallaid
 

The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. 

Do not agree at all.  A good decay system is the only thing a good crafting system would need.

Yes, and a crafting economy of some kind.

The thing is, it's not the pvp player who cries about crafting. PVE attracts too many people who will complain about crafting and the economy and pvp and decay.

Until the pve players stop selling out all their fellow gamers the first chance they get for convenience and loot, Im not sure if crafters will play with them for long, if they were ever allowed the opportunity at all.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/11/13 12:11:30 AM#49
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by Gallaid
Originally posted by zaxxon23
Originally posted by Theocritus
...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

 

MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

 

I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

No ! No ! No !

 

It's a very popular but totally false belief that there's ANY required relationship between "good crafting" and PVP.

 

Some examples:

  • "A Tale In The Desert" had the best crafting and gathering mini-games I have ever seen in an MMO. It had no combat of any kind.
  • SWG had the most complicated gathering, crafting, manufacturing and selling in any MMO ever made, yet PVP was very limited, entirely optional and ignored by the majority of the players. Decay removed items keeping the economy moving.
  • Fallen Earth and Vanguard both have good crafting systems, neither of those games have PVP-driven economies.
  • FFXIV:ARR has a very enjoyable crafting mechanic, even though the gathering is not exciting, and the crafted items are entirely optional. If you never used a crafted item, it wouldn't hinder you in any way.

 

Yes, if you want a "naturally driven" economy where there's constant demand for all crafted goods, then the rapid turnover caused by constant destructive warfare is an ideal mechanism. EVE is a case in point. It has a fantastic economy, but the actual crafting is abysmal. The fun part is the logistics and marketing.

 

I spend most of my time in FFXIV gathering or crafting, because I just love crafting.

In SWG, I spent ALL my time gathering and crafting, because I just love crafting. But in SWG my products were some of the best on the server and I derived a great deal of satisfaction from the recognition that I earned for my work.  

In swg, PVP was a little more important than you remember for crafting.

But it was a fantastic system.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Precursor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 146

Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

10/11/13 1:29:39 AM#50
Originally posted by Rusque

When people say "meaningful crafting" are they actually referring to crafting or are you guys talking about "crafting driven economies?"

 

I ask because crafting has pretty much been lame in every game ever. It's usually just a button click, sometimes a mini-game that has little to do with that craft. I do leatherwork in real life and I've just never felt crafting in games was done in any way to represent actual crafts.

Even in Age of Wushu where you can paint, it's just a simple puzzle that moves around tiles. It could have been a blank paper in which you would draw with your mouse and would have to register how closely you match the original piece and based on that determine the quality of the painting you create. At least that would be meaningful to me.

But if this is a discussion about economies, then meh either way.

I agree with the button clicky crafting. It's always been lackluster. Short of the whole digital creation thing ala second life I don't think there is much more that could be done in combat based games.

Those who had the pleasure (and maybe displeasure) of playing Galaxies had it about a good as it will ever get and it still was still just a button clicker. The thing that made it great was the effort you had to put into the crafting to get to the part where you clicked away at the craft menu. Crafting driven economy was an understatment until the nge appeared and put a bullet in swg's head.

People from either dorkfall or MO ( I can't remember which one) chittered way back when in early development about having a more meaningful craft system. As expected neither one appears to have done anything relevant with it.

Most gamers are more concerned with pew-pew than creative thinking these days anyway. It's a blanket statement, I know. Hope I don't get flamed for it. =)

 

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1938

10/11/13 1:43:52 AM#51
I like the Fallen Earth crafting system. You can craft so much stuff all the time, and nearly all equipment and stuff in the game is made by players.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1817

10/12/13 1:22:50 AM#52

WoW by no means killed crafting.

Crafting in Online games requires decay. It is a good system to have even for looted stuff, be it crafted or loot based recipe to craft to even straight up looted gear. All crafting and even 'end game raiding' systems die out because there is no need to replace anything.

 

Here is my l33t gear. It's there forever. They either raise cap or I never need to play 100% of the content.

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

10/12/13 4:19:37 AM#53

WoW always takes all the blame, but the truth is WoW probably saved the genre that would be dead long time ago.

 

Originally posted by Gallaid

The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

You aren't really looking for a solution that would satisfy everyone, you just want the opposite to what is now, so that crafters have huge advantage over non-crafters. You loved crafting in old games, the fact how crafting evolved now is the most solid proof that crafting wasn't that popular for the rest of the world. Of course, there will be some people that share your opinion.

You shouldn't ever use EvE for comparision, since EvE is the only decent space game out there so obviously that is the largest factor, why it is so successful. You will never know if any of those mechanics would make the game as popular if it was another generic fantasy with elfs on top.

There is no real solution for your problem. Only way to make crafters useful is to allow them to make better items than you can get in any other way. If you do that, then dungeons will be no more viable to do at all. So you need to do some drops that are no longer items, but are still valuable for some reason (materials for example). Getting materials instead of items will take away all the joy, satisfaction and unpredictability of dungeons, for the majority that is not interested in crafting at all. So you are aliening out a big group of players. If you make a seperate game only for crafters, then there will be only supply and no demand. So how?

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3505

10/12/13 4:23:08 AM#54

SWG had two types of 'decay'. One was the item itself, the other was the resource quality. A weapon in SWG was made out of several components, each requiring certain types of resources. The resource system shifted over time. You had to scan planets for resources and some types of resources were not always available. And resources also changed quality over time. So at any point in the game, you could have a server where the max crafting potential for a weapon was still not reached. So if a new resource with better quality became available, the min maxers immediately wanted a weapon crafted with that.

After the NGE , decay was left out. The resource system and crafting experimentation stayed however (which was easily the best part of the crafting system anyway). Later on in NGE decay was kind of replaced with a combination of lootbased components (certain iconic weaponskins that gave a slight bonus, RE system to create upgrades etc). The weaponsystem was also fleshed out to give more options in customization (elementary type, attribute bonusses etc). This gave some extra demand, but not comparable to item decay ofc. 

I always thought that a combination of the two would have been perfect. But only in combination with the existing resource system. This on itself already created an economy.

I never liked the nodesystem in MMO's that have fixed resource quality and often even fixed location. With that kind of resource system, you need decay to create new demand. I also never liked it if repairing decay was only in the hands of the crafter. A gun that is looked after properly, should last long (for your whole gametime actually). As player you should be able to take care of a weapon with special properties. Maybe that you need to replace some components over time, but as a whole it should not decay to become useless. That just never made sense.

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