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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] EverQuest Next: No Class Race Restriction is a Good Thing

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109 posts found
  Samhael

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 600

9/26/13 2:21:02 PM#41
I believe that SOE made the mistake of asking a question that they weren't prepared to receive the answers for. I think this is just the one of the first of what will be many mis-steps on the road to launch. (not basing this on past SOE launches, although there are plenty of prime examples there)
  TookyG

Warhammer Online Correspondent

Joined: 4/19/04
Posts: 1192

"...you mean three philippino women."

9/26/13 3:06:24 PM#42
Originally posted by Razeekster
Why am I unable to get myself excited for this game? It seems to be the the huge sandbox game that I and lots of other people have been wanting. Just something about it I guess... I'm more excited for the Repopulation.

For me it's because the game is going to be F2P.  I'll still give it a shot but...meh.

Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

9/26/13 3:20:38 PM#43
I don't think this is a case of SOE not listening to the polls.  It  seems that some people equate listening to doing exactly what the polls say should happen. I do believe SOE listened to the results, but made a creative decision to go in a different direction. If you read the whole reply you can see where they acknowledge that their own staff was divided and they were aware that the polls came out the way they came out. The reply was very thoughtful and explained some of the reasons they went the route they did. Just because something is possible, does not automatically mean 100% easy mode and all of the players will achieve it.  SOE can easily set up a situation that certain conditions need to be met before a certain class can be picked up and that some races will have difficulties in achieving those conditions. All SOE did was open the door to any race being any class, it does not mean that every player will be every class.
  Vivasvan

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/07
Posts: 374

9/26/13 4:14:25 PM#44
Poor decision, easy decision, Ofc because its F2p why waste time on it.
  Drakephire

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 352

9/26/13 6:40:43 PM#45
While I understand their decision, and though I'd much prefer class restrictions, what kinda irks me is the fact that they asked this question in the first place. They HAD to have known that people would vote for class restrictions.  Why set themselves up for a bad PR moment? It was just stupid on their part.
  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 454

9/26/13 7:38:11 PM#46

I don't think design by consensus is ever a good idea.  It is like building a house and saying "Hey guys do you think we need a beam over here?", don't be surprised when your house falls apart.   There is a reason why there are professional designers and architects, they have a vision and they know and understand how all the pieces need to fit together.

 

It is never a good sign when the people making a game need to be told by regular people how to make it.

  Ehliya

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 174

9/26/13 7:38:34 PM#47

I am sorry to see the direction EQN is taking.  Massive single player without real consequences or meaningful choices isn't anything "new" - it is the trend now.  And it is geared not to the most loyal core following, but instead to grab as much market share as possible.  Again, nothing new - one grand IP after another has gone down the spout with this approach.

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

9/26/13 10:29:02 PM#48
While I'll agree that race/class restricti9ons are less desirable or even useful in todays mmo's.  I'm a bit confused about the whole lets debate/vote ahh never mind thing.  Seems rather insulting to me. /shrugs

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/26/13 10:39:27 PM#49
Originally posted by BMBender
While I'll agree that race/class restricti9ons are less desirable or even useful in todays mmo's.  I'm a bit confused about the whole lets debate/vote ahh never mind thing.  Seems rather insulting to me. /shrugs

It's how SOE wants to do business.

 

Next poll:  "Players don't want Bards or Necromancers as they don't seem in line with all the awesomeness we would like to achieve."

 

Results:

Keep Bards and Necromancers (97%)

Lose Bards and Necromancers (2%)

No Opinion (<1%)

 

SOE: The tally's are in, by popular demand we are now removing bards and necromancers!

And here's why:

< insert 2 pages of complete irrelevant dribble >

 

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

9/26/13 11:11:24 PM#50

I never was a fan of class restrictions. I mean, can I just be a baker or a cop because I am a White dude? Why should a race restrict your "job"? It just doesn't make sense. Why should Gnomes or Elfs or Orcs not be capable to do the same stuff?

Maybe a D&D Elf being not so stroung and resilient would have a hard TIME to start as warrior, but with training he could do that! Nobody should hinder you. I mean, hell we have 2013 not 1979, grokk it?

Seriously, don't take game so serious!

I mean we are all here for the fun, so let each have his own vision of a character. EQ2 didn't have class restrictions, and good riddance. EQN has all the reasons behind them, given you don't chose ONE fixed class at start. It's just a RP pet peeve. And there is a simple solution: if you think your Gnome should not be able to play a Paladin... DON'T DO IT. Voila, problem solved. Thank me not.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  quseio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/07
Posts: 220

9/26/13 11:35:45 PM#51

good thing for devs  maybe!  players not so much there will be no or less alts alts mean  more time spent in the game

 its one of the cores of what a rpg is no cool racial abilities....or bonuses

its a bad decision and flys in the face of the round table vote .,,,, much like us elections ignoreing the popular vote  it shows us that the roundtable means nothing its just one  way to keep the hype up and to keep people interested

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

9/26/13 11:40:58 PM#52
Originally posted by ChaaK
Makes perfect sense, though how come they didn't realise that BEFORE asking the community?

Because they obviously didn't put that much thought into before they decided to ask the community so they could figure it out on their own then tick off some by ignoring the will of the mob in their minds.  Typical SOE, act first, think later.

  quseio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/07
Posts: 220

9/26/13 11:46:02 PM#53
Originally posted by Elikal

I never was a fan of class restrictions. I mean, can I just be a baker or a cop because I am a White dude? Why should a race restrict your "job"? It just doesn't make sense. Why should Gnomes or Elfs or Orcs not be capable to do the same stuff?

Maybe a D&D Elf being not so stroung and resilient would have a hard TIME to start as warrior, but with training he could do that! Nobody should hinder you. I mean, hell we have 2013 not 1979, grokk it?

Seriously, don't take game so serious!

I mean we are all here for the fun, so let each have his own vision of a character. EQ2 didn't have class restrictions, and good riddance. EQN has all the reasons behind them, given you don't chose ONE fixed class at start. It's just a RP pet peeve. And there is a simple solution: if you think your Gnome should not be able to play a Paladin... DON'T DO IT. Voila, problem solved. Thank me not.

 

my reply to this is would you teach a race of relentless cannabalistic  killing machines**(trolls) ghow to fight how to be a wizard or monk ? no and they are literally not suited to being monks theyre far to inflexible   of course unless you comepletely change how they are i wouldnt mind stuff like eq2s alternate classes like the brawler being a barehanded  fighter but NOt agile and fast but i guess the essence of what a rpg is  is lost on todays crowd the role  of a monk just does not fit a ogre and it would look rediculous doing a dragon kick

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

9/26/13 11:59:01 PM#54

They have made their decisions.

 

The polls and forum discussions are simply designed for marketing to create spin.

 

EQN is being designed to capture as a large a market of "gamers" as possible. Not MMO Gamers. "Gamers", console included.

 

Anything that remotely resembles something you would have to read up on, or research; isn't going in this game.

 

This is the next gen game for WoW and Console Players.

 

Not RPers. Not mature gamers seeking a deep, immersive experience.

 

Certainly, not those that played EQ.

 

And happy days for them, they deserve games too.

 
  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

9/27/13 12:06:21 AM#55
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Lanessar
Originally posted by DavisFlight
So what they're saying is... playing choice won't have consequence. Good to know, the chance for risk vs reward or an actual death penalty is probably out the window too.

I think you have "player choice" and "character choice" mashed together.

If, in a game, my character kills an innocent and loses paladin powers, that's a character choice (with consequence).

If, as a player, I equip a broadsword and don't know that prevents me ever thereafter from using battle axes, that's a player choice (and an easy mistake to make).

Except this shows that the devs, despite overwhelming player outcry, are determined to make this game nice and friendly, where the choices you make only have a shallow impact on yourself and the game. If your choices are ever in danger of hurting you, cut it.

That's the kind of design that birthed WoW.

 

It birthed the most popular MMO of all time, and the biggest cash cow developers had ever seen.

Yes, that ideology will continue to be used.

 

Not even blizzard thought Dwarf warlocks were a good idea for their game.

EQN is more shallow than WoW.

Now Shudder.

 
  goemoe

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 145

9/27/13 12:18:13 AM#56
Silly. Where is the point in doing a round table and telling they make a game for "us" or "we all", when the majority is ignored. The round table is nothing but a big round advertising joke.
  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

9/27/13 12:26:40 AM#57
Originally posted by quseio
Originally posted by Elikal

I never was a fan of class restrictions. I mean, can I just be a baker or a cop because I am a White dude? Why should a race restrict your "job"? It just doesn't make sense. Why should Gnomes or Elfs or Orcs not be capable to do the same stuff?

Maybe a D&D Elf being not so stroung and resilient would have a hard TIME to start as warrior, but with training he could do that! Nobody should hinder you. I mean, hell we have 2013 not 1979, grokk it?

Seriously, don't take game so serious!

I mean we are all here for the fun, so let each have his own vision of a character. EQ2 didn't have class restrictions, and good riddance. EQN has all the reasons behind them, given you don't chose ONE fixed class at start. It's just a RP pet peeve. And there is a simple solution: if you think your Gnome should not be able to play a Paladin... DON'T DO IT. Voila, problem solved. Thank me not.

 

my reply to this is would you teach a race of relentless cannabalistic  killing machines**(trolls) ghow to fight how to be a wizard or monk ? no and they are literally not suited to being monks theyre far to inflexible   of course unless you comepletely change how they are i wouldnt mind stuff like eq2s alternate classes like the brawler being a barehanded  fighter but NOt agile and fast but i guess the essence of what a rpg is  is lost on todays crowd the role  of a monk just does not fit a ogre and it would look rediculous doing a dragon kick

You do realize that this is supposed to be a sandbox, you know, no restrictions and in an alternate universe where things didn't or haven't happened yet.  The lore isn't the same.  A little research will go a long way.  

The other thing that strikes me about this thread is the crying for restrictions to limit choice in a sandbox.  There have been people crying alligator tears for a sandbox for years.  It seems everyone wants a themebox vice a sandpark.  They want the illusion of freedom wrapped in the enigma of an amusement park, dressed in the mystery of player choices matter.  In other words, a themebox version of GW2.  Make us think it's not a Themepark by making minor tweeks to what we are bored of and tell us we have freedom when we really don't.  Lead us by the nose from place to place but don't make it look like we are mindless lemmings.

Are there going to be choices that make people scratch their heads and ask wtf was someone thinking in a sandbox? You bet, but if you really want the freedom that is supposed to be in a sandbox, then you have to allow for the choices some will make.  Otherwise it will be a themebox.  

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/27/13 12:30:00 AM#58
Originally posted by Latronus
Originally posted by quseio
Originally posted by Elikal

I never was a fan of class restrictions. I mean, can I just be a baker or a cop because I am a White dude? Why should a race restrict your "job"? It just doesn't make sense. Why should Gnomes or Elfs or Orcs not be capable to do the same stuff?

Maybe a D&D Elf being not so stroung and resilient would have a hard TIME to start as warrior, but with training he could do that! Nobody should hinder you. I mean, hell we have 2013 not 1979, grokk it?

Seriously, don't take game so serious!

I mean we are all here for the fun, so let each have his own vision of a character. EQ2 didn't have class restrictions, and good riddance. EQN has all the reasons behind them, given you don't chose ONE fixed class at start. It's just a RP pet peeve. And there is a simple solution: if you think your Gnome should not be able to play a Paladin... DON'T DO IT. Voila, problem solved. Thank me not.

 

my reply to this is would you teach a race of relentless cannabalistic  killing machines**(trolls) ghow to fight how to be a wizard or monk ? no and they are literally not suited to being monks theyre far to inflexible   of course unless you comepletely change how they are i wouldnt mind stuff like eq2s alternate classes like the brawler being a barehanded  fighter but NOt agile and fast but i guess the essence of what a rpg is  is lost on todays crowd the role  of a monk just does not fit a ogre and it would look rediculous doing a dragon kick

You do realize that this is supposed to be a sandbox, you know, no restrictions and in an alternate universe where things didn't or haven't happened yet.  The lore isn't the same.  A little research will go a long way.  

The other thing that strikes me about this thread is the crying for restrictions to limit choice in a sandbox.  There have been people crying alligator tears for a sandbox for years.  It seems everyone wants a themebox vice a sandpark.  They want the illusion of freedom wrapped in the enigma of an amusement park, dressed in the mystery of player choices matter.  In other words, a themebox version of GW2.  Make us think it's not a Themepark by making minor tweeks to what we are bored of and tell us we have freedom when we really don't.  Lead us by the nose from place to place but don't make it look like we are mindless lemmings.

Are there going to be choices that make people scratch their heads and ask wtf was someone thinking in a sandbox? You bet, but if you really want the freedom that is supposed to be in a sandbox, then you have to allow for the choices some will make.  Otherwise it will be a themebox.  

It's not a sandbox buddy.  Get over it.  It's a hybrid.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5095

9/27/13 2:00:26 AM#59

EasyMMO gameplay wins over lore and any sort of rational behind what a class is meant to be.

So you have to ask yourself why have the round table when they already have decided the answers? Going down the ezMMO route is not new, so their decision to do this was no doubt made ages ago.

The roundtable like so many of these attempts to make it seem like players are inputting to a MMO is an exercise in finessing the player community. By this I mean they know those that go on forums and the like want to feel their views are known, we liked to think the devs are listening to us. But the baulk of the player base does not even go on the forums and it is those that the MMO companies want to pander to.

Whenever the roundtable or its equivalent says one thing but market research disagrees, they will go against the roundtable. The majority even if they say nothing are catered for. That's right, a lot of this is about what it is assumed the majority want, remember these game hopping guys don't even bother to answer polls or whatever.

But MMO companies feel the need to finesse those who will take part in discussions about the game. In this case 6 thousand or so players who posted about class restrictions. So they get some 'plurality' bullshit straight out of the PR department. They do get told some of the real reasons in the video, but then that brings us back to why have the roundtable? Those are stock reasons, they were never going to make any other decision.

In fact if you add together those that wanted class restrictions with those that wanted some for replay ability that's 54%, a majority even by SOE's rigged system. But this is not about what the forum posters want, so it is hardly surprising it did not go that way.

When they did the Guns and Ninja's post some 47% gave a straight no. But as the other answer is not just "yes" they can play the plurality card again. So 47% of players ignored and there will be guns and versions of ninjas in game. Want to stop EQNext having everything and anything they think will scrap in a few more players? Well you can piss off as far as they are concerned.

So is the roundtable worth taking part in? Well, there are questions where I think the answer was not decided like beards on female dwarves. But that is all they are going to listen to, anything that effects easymode gameplay and WoW template is set in stone already.

 

  UsualSuspect

Elite Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1212

9/27/13 2:00:32 AM#60

"When we started developing the game, we realized we wanted to create a situation where our players were never forced to make a decision that they would later regret based on knowledge they didn't have at that stage in their careers."

 

Hey, I know, why don't you show them the information during character generation? Duh. Ogre - Big and dumb, they'll never make a good wizard, too clumsy to be a rogue, but they're great at breaking bones. Ta da! Now they have the knowledge!

 

"DnD was the model for all MMOs then and it made sense at the time to adhere to as many of the conventions presented as possible."

 

It's not the model for all MMO's, it's the model for all RPGs. You can't redesign what's already been perfected. There might be hundreds of different types of cars, but they're all cars. You take out the base design and you're left with the Sinclair C5 (look it up!). RPG's have always had the base design of race/class because it works, it gives people direction and allows them to focus their mind on an idea. There's a reason modern MMO's are failing; they lack that focus and direction, it's all so 'wishy washy', nothing really matters, you're just an object following a story.

EQ Next is going down a very bad path. It looks more console than any other MMO I've seen, which is really sad considering I was birthed from the original EverQuest. EQ2 was a let down, EQ Next looks like the nail in the coffin.

 
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