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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What happened to crafting?

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54 posts found
  echolynfan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/26/10
Posts: 728

I ain't got a gat but I gotta soldering gun

9/24/13 4:44:54 PM#21
Originally posted by Foomerang

OP you should try FFXIV. Its where a few of us vet SWG crafters have gone.

<------Raises hand

Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

9/24/13 4:45:14 PM#22
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Mysta

Originally posted by Grahor ...
...
You know, I was right about to post and agree with you, but then I just realized something.

 

Decay is NOT the only way to create a functioning crafter's economy.

As I see it, there are two ways.

First, you can keep the traditional crafting mechanics, where the crafter makes a pre-programmed game item and then sells that item.  You would need item decay for this to work, because the constant loss of said items is the only thing that would generate demand, since the items are essentially all the same.

Second, you can change the crafting system so that the crafter can actually MAKE something creatively with the game's toolkit and then sell that item in game.  For example, couldn't you envision a game like Minecraft where a crafter creates something like a fountain out of voxels with their own unique artistic touches and then sells that?  It would sell because it would be unique, it would be that crafter's own creation and would not be the same as any other fountain...no item decay necessary.  Constant differentiation would drive the game economy just like it drives our real one.

I think that EQ Next Landmark actually has the potential to make this happen since it will let "crafters" actually make things out of the game's voxels.  How they decide to implement this stuff in the actual EQ Next game has yet to be seen though.

Still, with new voxel-based MMORPGs on the horizon, I think that crafting may be in for a huge change.



Second Life lets you do the whole "create something unique" crafting thing. I dont like it. The game has no continuity or common theme. Its just a bunch of junk for sale. Wade through thousands of overpriced shovelware items to find one halfway interesting thing. Not my idea of a blast or a great crafting game.

 

You can do what FFXIV does which is create a voluntary decay system. It worked great in 1.0 and is setup the same way now.

Yeah but all those problems you mention are specific to Second Life.  I'm sure it's more than possible to implement a creative crafting system that has continuity of theme and weeds out a lot of the shovelware crap.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1903

9/24/13 4:47:15 PM#23

I love deep meaningful crafting.

Final Fantasy XIV

Vanguard

come to mind

  User Deleted
9/24/13 4:54:06 PM#24


Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Foomerang  

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Mysta

Originally posted by Grahor ...
...

You know, I was right about to post and agree with you, but then I just realized something.   Decay is NOT the only way to create a functioning crafter's economy. As I see it, there are two ways. First, you can keep the traditional crafting mechanics, where the crafter makes a pre-programmed game item and then sells that item.  You would need item decay for this to work, because the constant loss of said items is the only thing that would generate demand, since the items are essentially all the same. Second, you can change the crafting system so that the crafter can actually MAKE something creatively with the game's toolkit and then sell that item in game.  For example, couldn't you envision a game like Minecraft where a crafter creates something like a fountain out of voxels with their own unique artistic touches and then sells that?  It would sell because it would be unique, it would be that crafter's own creation and would not be the same as any other fountain...no item decay necessary.  Constant differentiation would drive the game economy just like it drives our real one. I think that EQ Next Landmark actually has the potential to make this happen since it will let "crafters" actually make things out of the game's voxels.  How they decide to implement this stuff in the actual EQ Next game has yet to be seen though. Still, with new voxel-based MMORPGs on the horizon, I think that crafting may be in for a huge change.
Second Life lets you do the whole "create something unique" crafting thing. I dont like it. The game has no continuity or common theme. Its just a bunch of junk for sale. Wade through thousands of overpriced shovelware items to find one halfway interesting thing. Not my idea of a blast or a great crafting game.   You can do what FFXIV does which is create a voluntary decay system. It worked great in 1.0 and is setup the same way now.
Yeah but all those problems you mention are specific to Second Life.  I'm sure it's more than possible to implement a creative crafting system that has continuity of theme and weeds out a lot of the shovelware crap.


I agree. I just think it tough to balance. Of course Landmark has the potential to do it right. Of course SoE has had plenty of potentials over their long and illustrious mmo career so to speak haha.

  Alverant

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/12/07
Posts: 382

9/24/13 10:39:11 PM#25
Originally posted by Grahor

To have crafting you need economy. To have economy you need constant demand. To have demand you need items to be removed from players' hands, being it by damage decay, death decay, time decay or any other way. In any case, players have to regularly lose their items.

 

Players don't like it. So the games were developed whete the player can buy a sword and have that sword until end of time. Thus, no economy for sword-manufacturers. Extrapolate to all other non-decaying items...

 

Mostly current games have economies based on expiring products, like food and potions. EvE, with full item decay, has a huge economy and is pretty much heaven for crafters.

 

Crafting died because players didn't want to be bothered with economy and/or possibility that their "hard-earned" raid item will decay. So they've killed it.

Yep, that and the fact you can get better items via drops. Earth & Beyond had good ideas for crafting (better components = better result, death decay) and some bad ideas (no one class could go from raw materials to finished product).

I wouldn't mind seeing a system where items decay provided you could spend resources to maintain them. No time decay though because I'd like to encourage players to build powerful items and use them, even if they only use it on final bosses where they really need the improved abilities. That way players would have multiple weapons, the "every-baddie" ones then weapons for a special occasion. In any case when decay happens it can be completely undone by allocating resources to maintenance. The rarer the item put into the maintenance bin the longer it will last and players would have the choice of dumping common items in there often or a few uncommon ones occasionally. In any case, it would help with the game economy by removing items from it. This way having dozens of cheap items is good for something.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

9/24/13 10:41:33 PM#26
Originally posted by Gallaid

 

Ever since wow came out there has been no real dedicated crafters.

You answered your own question.

Just like everything else good or complex in MMOs, WoW got rid of it.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

9/25/13 12:54:46 AM#27
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Just like everything else good or complex in MMOs, WoW got rid of it.

"good" is subjective.

WOW got rid of open world pvp. WOW got rid of hard core only raiding. Wow got rid of talking in channel before you can find a group.

All good to me.

 

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

9/25/13 4:01:13 AM#28

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 

For those people who specifically get a kick out of the crafting process or from playing a crafter character a game can provide that by making the crafting process interesting in itself - not just a crafting mini-game but the whole process of learning recipes, skills, finding and gathering materials etc.

 

Even in a game like WoW if you had specific crafting character classes with their own path through the game (or if a skill based game then separate trees of crafting skills) then being a crafter could be made interesting separately from the economy.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

9/25/13 9:58:10 AM#29
Originally posted by tupodawg999

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 


 

That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

Who can say which is better.

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

9/25/13 3:52:15 PM#30
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by tupodawg999

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 


 

That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

Who can say which is better.

 

That is decay - you just decayed the previous top tier.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

9/25/13 3:55:10 PM#31
Originally posted by tupodawg999
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by tupodawg999

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 


 

That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

Who can say which is better.

 

That is decay - you just decayed the previous top tier.

Well .. that is semantics. In that case, i would say there are multiple kinds of decay. This kind is obviously different from the kind that destroy the item.

 

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 1088

9/25/13 3:55:40 PM#32

OP has obviously not played Fallen Earth if he believes good crafting does not exist. 

It does.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  gtalove888

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/13
Posts: 2

9/25/13 6:30:28 PM#33
Fallen Earth does have a good crafting system....especially with the vehicles
  5Luck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 184

9/25/13 6:53:47 PM#34
Originally posted by Maurgrim
Vanguard have a robust crafting minigame onpar with SWG you should check it out.

IMO Vanguard is the game that ruined crafting. It was one of the 1st(that i played) that offered class "spheres" meaning yes you could not craft everything but your crafter was also a combatant. That is what changed things.

If you want a crafting economy there is no way around it. You need to have a crafting class. Not a mage with silk weaving but a choice between either a mage or a silk weaver.

Now I wont completly say vanguard was a bad crafting game. It wasnt. The crafting was fun and you ended up with rare-ish items through the system but again what it did do was remove the crafter as a 1st class and made it 2ndary.\

 

SWG well that was a whole other level. AFAIK it was the only game to present stats for mats that actually made a noticable impact on not only design but overall quality. It was unbelivable...

 

*edit oo\n drops..

 

I always felt drops should not ever happen as a "set" there should be a rare arm guard from a certain encounter that is better then any crafter can make. Then it is the crafters job to make a suit that suports that arm guard for those that have it and a suit that incorperates their own crafted arm guard for those that dont...

 

Edit#2 hehe

one of the main drives for the edit #1 post was the total charater "look" Meaning that if you conglomerated all the rare drops that were not part of a full set you looked bad.. and that needed to be adressed as it was a HUGH thing on many forums just before things were changed..

  orchestraloverx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/13
Posts: 3

9/25/13 7:02:04 PM#35
I would recommend FFVIX if you want to craft, I guess.  Beautiful game...but slow paced
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

9/25/13 7:03:15 PM#36

The same things that happened to player interdependency, group dynamics and content, real player-based economies, open virtual worlds, and the like: the devs all copied WoW instead, and dumped as all that stuff as not worth the effort, too hard, or straight up not wanted.

And then they instanced everything on top of it.

And why? Because the consumers of MMOs, by majority, want simplified and easy everything, and the simplified and lazy devs are only too happy to pump that crap out.

I swear, its like MMO Idiocracy.

 

(And the crafting in FE was better than average, but not in the same league as SWG, same with Vanguard.)

  Jockan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 4291

Elder Scrolls Online

9/25/13 7:16:01 PM#37
Originally posted by Grahor

To have crafting you need economy. To have economy you need constant demand. To have demand you need items to be removed from players' hands, being it by damage decay, death decay, time decay or any other way. In any case, players have to regularly lose their items.

 

Players don't like it. So the games were developed whete the player can buy a sword and have that sword until end of time. Thus, no economy for sword-manufacturers. Extrapolate to all other non-decaying items...

 

Mostly current games have economies based on expiring products, like food and potions. EvE, with full item decay, has a huge economy and is pretty much heaven for crafters.

 

Crafting died because players didn't want to be bothered with economy and/or possibility that their "hard-earned" raid item will decay. So they've killed it.

 

 

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I have never been a crafter but I can tell you as long as you can easily get gear from quest or drops then crafting will never be what it should be. There is not a themepark game on the market that has meaningful crafting. Sure it may be fun to do but not something that the players depend upon.

  Tissmogi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/11
Posts: 191

9/25/13 7:16:35 PM#38
Originally posted by Theocritus
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

No, I don't believe that "WoW killed crafting".

 

Meaningful crafting was removed from mainstream MMO's because the majority of modern MMO players couldn't be bothered with it. Loot drops superceded crafted products and took center stage in most MMO's.

 

FFXIV:ARR is the first AAA game in a long time that has a decent crafting system. With some effort, crafted gear (pre level-cap) can actually be made marginally better than quest or loot rewards, but endgame dungeon drops still trump all, of course.

 Thats just it...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

Not true. Crafted and melded gear is better than what you can get from dungeons or with dungeon tokens. You need crafters to "repair" dungeon drops, creating items from dungeon drops.

Heavy Darksteel Armour or the 2 Vanya Sets are still the best gear in the game if you put Materia in them (which also needs a crafter)

The only items that beat these sets are dropped from Bahamuts Coil. The current top end Dungeon that only 3% of the player base have access to and only less than 1% are able to get loot from even with access.

Gear leaves the economy when it gets converted into Materia. That materia gets attached by a crafter to new Gear which then again, eventually get's converted again. The gear economy is very healthy.

  zaxxon23

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 1285

9/25/13 8:10:27 PM#39
Originally posted by Theocritus
...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

 

MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

 

I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

  Gallaid

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/05
Posts: 118

 
OP  9/26/13 12:07:28 AM#40
Originally posted by zaxxon23
Originally posted by Theocritus
...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

 

MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

 

I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

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