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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Remember the good old MMO's? Taking off my rose-colored glasses and seeing reality

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578 posts found
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/22/13 6:43:02 PM#441
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

And I'm sick of people (you) acting like all opinions and tastes are equal. They aren't. There is such a thing as objective quality, it's just not easy to measure. But let me put it this way: The average sandbox player has more knowledge of themeparks than the average themepark player has of sandboxes. Most of us prefer sandboxes and "oldschool style" games because we've played BOTH and and have been disappointed by themeparks over and over. I highly doubt the 10+ million WoW players can say the same. This whole "it's my preference and you can't criticize it or analyze it in any way!" stance is such garbage. 

 

Also I'm sick of people acting like greed has nothing to do with developers' decisions on what kind of game to make. You say that you don't like people implying that developers are greedy... are you saying they're not? This is just so typical you: criticize somebody's position without having the ability to argue against it. 

How do you know your opinion is better than mine?

I don't know that, and I also don't think I said it. Though judging by some of the things you've said, I think it's a pretty safe assumption. 

 

But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion.

Anyone else think my opinion is inferior to Holophonist's?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/22/13 7:00:23 PM#442
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Quirhid

Indeed. GTA V has content for less than 50 hours. Is it a bad game?

Clearly not since it's making sales records and has already passed a billion dollars in sales.  It was making more than $800 a minute it's first day of release.  That's not a bad game by any means.

LOL are you serious? Lots of money = good product? Is this a joke?

 

GTA V may be a good game (I haven't played it, nor do I intend to), but the fact that it has sold so many copies does NOT make it a good game, it makes it a profitable game.

Cephus we need to hold on the verdict before he tries the game. His opinion carries more weight than ours apparently.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

9/22/13 7:03:10 PM#443
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist

What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"? The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately. So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?

 

Perpetuum

Dafrkfall Online

ArcheAge

Age of Wushu

Star Citizen

Black Desert

Everquest Next

You could travel back further and watch the pattern over and over again.

Wtf over half of that list isn't even out in the US yet. Also, I don't see anybody screaming about any of those games (except maybe EQN) being THE ONE... and that's not out yet. Some of them are promising to be sandboxes, and people are getting excited about it. If they come out and it turns out they're really NOT much of a sandbox, are we supposed to be somehow at fault for getting our hopes up when a game is marketed as something that we want? This argument is so silly.

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

9/22/13 7:05:14 PM#444
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

And I'm sick of people (you) acting like all opinions and tastes are equal. They aren't. There is such a thing as objective quality, it's just not easy to measure. But let me put it this way: The average sandbox player has more knowledge of themeparks than the average themepark player has of sandboxes. Most of us prefer sandboxes and "oldschool style" games because we've played BOTH and and have been disappointed by themeparks over and over. I highly doubt the 10+ million WoW players can say the same. This whole "it's my preference and you can't criticize it or analyze it in any way!" stance is such garbage. 

 

Also I'm sick of people acting like greed has nothing to do with developers' decisions on what kind of game to make. You say that you don't like people implying that developers are greedy... are you saying they're not? This is just so typical you: criticize somebody's position without having the ability to argue against it. 

How do you know your opinion is better than mine?

I don't know that, and I also don't think I said it. Though judging by some of the things you've said, I think it's a pretty safe assumption. 

 

But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion.

Anyone else think my opinion is inferior to Holophonist's?

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/22/13 7:38:41 PM#445
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

I've told you my problem. And ridiculing your proclamation that your opinion carries more weight than mine, or anyone else's who disagrees with you is very relevant to the topic.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

9/22/13 7:41:45 PM#446
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

I've told you my problem. And ridiculing your proclamation that your opinion carries more weight than mine, or anyone else's who disagrees with you is very relevant to the topic.

No, it isn't. I could just as easily delete the part where I said it's safe to assume that my opinion is more important than yours or whatever the exact nomenclature was because it has little to do with the actual point. You disagree that my opinion holds more weight than yours, fine. But it's all you're talking about because it's the only thing you have a response for. 

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2780

9/22/13 7:44:23 PM#447
So many angry people yelling in this thread.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/22/13 7:53:53 PM#448
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

I've told you my problem. And ridiculing your proclamation that your opinion carries more weight than mine, or anyone else's who disagrees with you is very relevant to the topic.

No, it isn't. I could just as easily delete the part where I said it's safe to assume that my opinion is more important than yours or whatever the exact nomenclature was because it has little to do with the actual point. You disagree that my opinion holds more weight than yours, fine. But it's all you're talking about because it's the only thing you have a response for. 

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

Focus

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/22/13 8:12:38 PM#449
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

I've told you my problem. And ridiculing your proclamation that your opinion carries more weight than mine, or anyone else's who disagrees with you is very relevant to the topic.

No, it isn't. I could just as easily delete the part where I said it's safe to assume that my opinion is more important than yours or whatever the exact nomenclature was because it has little to do with the actual point. You disagree that my opinion holds more weight than yours, fine. But it's all you're talking about because it's the only thing you have a response for. 

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

You have no rational argument in favor of old school MMOs other than "you know better", but frankly, between few posters here, we have experienced the old school MMORPGs and we didn't like them or we don't want to go back. You don't know better than us, and we've given you reasons why it is highly unlikely for them to come back.

In that one thread people filled 5 pages trying to explain to you how industry and the market works, but did you listen? -No. You think you know better.

Do you have any idea how insulting and hostile you come across? You call games a lot of people enjoy greatly "dumbed down", "watered down", "for kiddies" or just plain "failures". Then you proceed to call the developers clueless, greedy and lazy. Have you thought of what kind of person would spew such abuse that the one indie dev said "fuck it" and quit the industry?

-Its your kind of person.

Put yourself in our shoes. How should we have a conversation with you when you said in another thread "just because there's no evidence, its not true", which is a remarkable statement in itself, but then you proceed with the notion that you know better than most of us? So where exactly have you left room for discussion?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

9/22/13 8:28:26 PM#450
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm sorry but what exactly is your problem? Are you 100% incapable of having a straight up conversation without derailing it or just flat out tucking tail and running?

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

I've told you my problem. And ridiculing your proclamation that your opinion carries more weight than mine, or anyone else's who disagrees with you is very relevant to the topic.

No, it isn't. I could just as easily delete the part where I said it's safe to assume that my opinion is more important than yours or whatever the exact nomenclature was because it has little to do with the actual point. You disagree that my opinion holds more weight than yours, fine. But it's all you're talking about because it's the only thing you have a response for. 

 

"But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion."

You have no rational argument in favor of old school MMOs other than "you know better", but frankly, between few posters here, we have experienced the old school MMORPGs and we didn't like them or we don't want to go back. You don't know better than us, and we've given you reasons why it is highly unlikely for them to come back.

In that one thread people filled 5 pages trying to explain to you how industry and the market works, but did you listen? -No. You think you know better.

Do you have any idea how insulting and hostile you come across? You call games a lot of people enjoy greatly "dumbed down", "watered down", "for kiddies" or just plain "failures". Then you proceed to call the developers clueless, greedy and lazy. Have you thought of what kind of person would spew such abuse that the one indie dev said "fuck it" and quit the industry?

-Its your kind of person.

Put yourself in our shoes. How should we have a conversation with you when you said in another thread "just because there's no evidence, its not true", which is a remarkable statement in itself, but then you proceed with the notion that you know better than most of us? So where exactly have you left room for discussion?

How many times can you misrepresent the facts in one post?

 

1. I've given a TON of rational arguments for why I'm in favor of old school games. I've explained how watering down works. I've explained how it makes sense that developers would go for the easy buck instead of making an innovative game. Why wouldn't they? They saw WoW's success so they try to emulate it. I've said over and over that I understand this is how the market works... the other side of the market is consumers voicing their opinions about what they want. I'm not sure how it's wrong for me to do so. Yours is the side that is tells us to just "move on" and "give up." How about you mind your own business and let use decide for ourselves how we want to spend our time? And as I've pointed out to you before, it's not a coincidence that so many people "whine" about wanting a sandbox and now a lot of sandbox games are on the horizon. Seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

2. You can't nebulously reference a thread where people argued with me for "5 pages" about how the market works. I KNOW how the market works, trust me. You don't have to teach me anything about free markets or economics in general. And tt's not a valid discussion if most of the people just don't respond to my points.

 

3. I don't think I've said any game is for kiddies, and I don't think I've called them "failures." At least not in a derogatory way. I may have pointed that games have failed, so what? You all LOVE to point out how old school games have "failed." You have a double standard here.

 

4. I call the developers who are being greedy and lazy greedy and lazy, sure. If you think I'm talking about the little guy who's just doing his job writing code, you're wrong. I'm talking about the people making the decision. If there's a developer that is looking to steal ideas from other games and hoping to ride a wave of easy money, I don't see the problem with pointing it out. It's not like I'm going after some "indie developer." In fact I rarely even mention a specific company. 

 

5. I'm pretty sure what I said was "just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean I'm wrong." And that's a completely true and reasonable thing to say. You have a tendency to simply say "you can't prove that" or "you don't know that" (even though I'm rarely claiming that I have proof for what I'm saying) without taking a stance one way or the other. In other words, ARGUE YOUR POINT. It's not an argument to say "that's your opinion." Yes, a lot of what I said is opinion, just like a lot of what you say is opinion, and a lot of what everybody here says is opinion. 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

9/22/13 8:49:31 PM#451
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Axehilt

Of course good games make money, but we're reflecting back on Old MMORPGs, which weren't good games.  They had some traits which could be polished up with modern sensibilities, but the old atmosphere of high-timesink for low-gameplay and big inconveniences all dramatically reduced the potential audience.

"Longer to develop" is the exact same as "bigger budget game".  Which again is going to be driven by the expected audience size for a game.

As for immediate payoffs, that's a separate issue.  A game which manages to successfully be fun long-term will be substantially more profitable long-term.

There literally is no evidence to support what you're saying. Marketing trends have killed all of that due emulation and risk vs. budget factor. All evidence points others wise in my opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that older games still maintain a paying player base over the long haul in the face of newer games and newer "casual" games would have long died if forced to have paying player bases. The conversations us just opinion based. Until there is a high quality game based on older game principles its all opinion based as there has not been one to test either theory.

No one is going to make the game you suggest unless there is data to support there is a sizable enough audience for it. If their data showed it was profitable, the devs would make it. After all, devs are greedy, right?

If you have data to the contrary, definitely bring it to the developer of your choice and let them see it.

Again we've had emulation because of WoW. No bigger data then the wild success of WoW. Even if you see a market for a game that could support a max of 1 million players, you have WoW with a former 10 million plus base. What do you think is easier to sell to investors?

Who are the developers and investors that you are talking to who are saying things like this?

The devs have metrics from each of their games (and often on their competitor's games as well) on what content people are playing and what thresholds of penalty/difficulty/challenge/grind dropoff occurs at. When devs leave one company and go to another, that information gets further disseminated.

You seem to have this view that there is any investor that would turn away a 1 million playerbase MMO if it was profitable. You and many others here seem to have created in your minds some kind of mythical investor that isn't aware of the numbers that point to a 150k-300k retention after Day 91.

I deal with both developers and investors regularly. Your description of what they are like, the data they have access to, and what they look for so far don't match my experiences. It's entirely possible that I've just met the odd ones out and my view - and theirs - is skewed. I'm not sure it is, though.

 

 

I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/22/13 9:10:33 PM#452
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Axehilt

Of course good games make money, but we're reflecting back on Old MMORPGs, which weren't good games.  They had some traits which could be polished up with modern sensibilities, but the old atmosphere of high-timesink for low-gameplay and big inconveniences all dramatically reduced the potential audience.

"Longer to develop" is the exact same as "bigger budget game".  Which again is going to be driven by the expected audience size for a game.

As for immediate payoffs, that's a separate issue.  A game which manages to successfully be fun long-term will be substantially more profitable long-term.

There literally is no evidence to support what you're saying. Marketing trends have killed all of that due emulation and risk vs. budget factor. All evidence points others wise in my opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that older games still maintain a paying player base over the long haul in the face of newer games and newer "casual" games would have long died if forced to have paying player bases. The conversations us just opinion based. Until there is a high quality game based on older game principles its all opinion based as there has not been one to test either theory.

No one is going to make the game you suggest unless there is data to support there is a sizable enough audience for it. If their data showed it was profitable, the devs would make it. After all, devs are greedy, right?

If you have data to the contrary, definitely bring it to the developer of your choice and let them see it.

Again we've had emulation because of WoW. No bigger data then the wild success of WoW. Even if you see a market for a game that could support a max of 1 million players, you have WoW with a former 10 million plus base. What do you think is easier to sell to investors?

Who are the developers and investors that you are talking to who are saying things like this?

The devs have metrics from each of their games (and often on their competitor's games as well) on what content people are playing and what thresholds of penalty/difficulty/challenge/grind dropoff occurs at. When devs leave one company and go to another, that information gets further disseminated.

You seem to have this view that there is any investor that would turn away a 1 million playerbase MMO if it was profitable. You and many others here seem to have created in your minds some kind of mythical investor that isn't aware of the numbers that point to a 150k-300k retention after Day 91.

I deal with both developers and investors regularly. Your description of what they are like, the data they have access to, and what they look for so far don't match my experiences. It's entirely possible that I've just met the odd ones out and my view - and theirs - is skewed. I'm not sure it is, though.

 

 

I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 

That seems like a pretty reasonable answer.

 

 

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/22/13 9:35:48 PM#453


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 




Your view on some of these things is a little off.

Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good.

So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry.

It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist.

So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

9/22/13 10:05:38 PM#454
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 

 




Your view on some of these things is a little off.

Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good.

So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry.

It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist.

So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.

 

 

I think developers are starting to realize that cloning WoW doesn't work in bringing in WoW numbers.  We've had the MMORPG market grow a lot and many gamers have never experienced and "old school style games."  How do you truly get stats on them?  Maybe they would all reject it.  But we will never know if its never done.  

 

But WoW and back games have some how managed to be subscription based for years and in the case of Eve actually grow.  You then have all these games that cloned the WoW experience come out and sell and promptly bleed subscriptions until they're forced to subside the games.   I wonder how a game like EvE's paying customers add up to F2P MMORPG's paying customers in numbers.  Not earned but just those who find the game worth paying for. 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/22/13 10:12:49 PM#455
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 

 




Your view on some of these things is a little off.

Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good.

So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry.

It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist.

So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.

 

Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.

You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet.

A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well.

I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  monkey_crusher

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/13
Posts: 41

9/22/13 11:13:16 PM#456
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

And I'm sick of people (you) acting like all opinions and tastes are equal. They aren't. There is such a thing as objective quality, it's just not easy to measure. But let me put it this way: The average sandbox player has more knowledge of themeparks than the average themepark player has of sandboxes. Most of us prefer sandboxes and "oldschool style" games because we've played BOTH and and have been disappointed by themeparks over and over. I highly doubt the 10+ million WoW players can say the same. This whole "it's my preference and you can't criticize it or analyze it in any way!" stance is such garbage. 

 

Also I'm sick of people acting like greed has nothing to do with developers' decisions on what kind of game to make. You say that you don't like people implying that developers are greedy... are you saying they're not? This is just so typical you: criticize somebody's position without having the ability to argue against it. 

How do you know your opinion is better than mine?

I don't know that, and I also don't think I said it. Though judging by some of the things you've said, I think it's a pretty safe assumption. 

 

But what you said is you're fed up with people acting like their opinion is better than anybody else's. Opinions and preferences are NOT always equal. You can indeed criticize or analyse another person's opinion.

Anyone else think my opinion is inferior to Holophonist's?

*raises hand*

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

9/23/13 2:31:31 AM#457
Originally posted by Moirae

Except they WERE good games or people wouldn't still be playing them. You do realize that people get disatisfied with what their playing and go back to their old games right? There's a reason most of them haven't been shut down yet. 

Wow, you are all stretching to make excuses. 

Uh, the games you're talking about have incredibly miniscule player counts currently.  They had small player counts even in their prime. Which is why companies haven't spent much money chasing after the oldschool type of MMORPG.

No "excuses" are being offered here, only an accurate look at what has happened, and what is happening.

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/23/13 2:32:46 AM#458
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

 

I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.

 

Why did you have to go and ruin a perfectly good post?

F2P is not the same as failing. DDO made more money as a F2P than it ever did as P2P. Team Fortress 2 more than when it required a box price. Battlefield Heroes was a success. Essentially all of the online collecting card games are F2P. League of Legends and World of Tanks both owe their successes in part by the F2P model. In fact the game type relies on it, because there wouldn't be enough people for the matchmaking to work properly without the a huge influx of players upfront. Players need players to play against. These games would suffer from a slow build-up, so they go for F2P instead.

There are so many good F2P games out there, you can't make any assumption about quality just by looking at the payment model.

It is far more complicated than just "herp derp, F2P - FAIL!"

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5355

9/23/13 4:19:53 AM#459
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot
 

Are you kidding? I would love to work on a completely new game every two years!  That would be a dream job.

You don't dictate the standards for MMOs and you can't use a 10-year-old measuring stick to do it. The market and the industry are drastically different from those days. Have you even considered that sticking to one game for years is a thing of the past? That we will likely never see such games again. Its not a good thing or a bad thing. Its just how things are. For your sake, you should change with the times.

Turns out in another thread, Holophonist was in favor of innovation only when it suited him. I would also bet all my Internet coins that you would be hypocritical enough not to complain if your preferred style of MMOs returned as the mainstream niche.

Why can't you just quietly accept that you belong in a minority without any mud slinging? Why do you have the need to point fingers and demean the people who don't share your preferences?

For a self-proclaimed social and friendly community, the old-schoolers are portraying quite a different image outward.

Before I make any other response to this can you explain to me why my posts have left you feeling demeaned? I think you are using such language purely to shut down the opposition to your point of view. You do not strike me as a shy wallflower, so can you tell us how your sensibilities have been damaged by what I have said?

You are right, I don't have a horse in the race but I am quite fed up people suggest they know better than anyone else or their tastes are somehow more refined than anyone else's. Or implying developers are clueless, greedy or lazy just because they don't happen to serve their preferences. There's also an awful lot of ignorance regarding the market and business. Too many armchair generals.

If I had an agenda, it would be to promote new games. Not "new old games" - entirely new games. I am for good games of all kind, but generally I get labelled a "themepark lover" or "WoW fanboy" which is funny because I played WoW for a whole 20 minutes in its closed beta.

Personally I do not think developers are clueless or lazy. When it comes to greed I mostly blame the suits. We are all armchair generals on this site, that rather goes with it being MMORPG.com. I am all for new types of games, the reinvention of the MMOFPS with PS2 was a joy. But will we see more solid MMOFPS? Early days as yet, the MMO genre can make a niche game like EVE, but finds it hard to expand on that so that successor games come with a bigger budget. To me many old school values are important, but I advocate rebalancing only, just going back to old school would be untenable.

When it comes to working on one game too long I take your point, designers and those involved with the game would certainly want something fresh and invigorating. But the issue for the modern model is that people are being laid off, not going on to the next game and gaming companies are closing down. Is this happening more now, perhaps there is just more companies so there are going to be more that fail? But writers on this site and others have brought up the issue as a matter of concern, so I doubt everything is that wonderful in the gaming industry.

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/23/13 4:54:59 AM#460
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

How many times can you misrepresent the facts in one post?

 

1. I've given a TON of rational arguments for why I'm in favor of old school games. I've explained how watering down works. I've explained how it makes sense that developers would go for the easy buck instead of making an innovative game. Why wouldn't they? They saw WoW's success so they try to emulate it. I've said over and over that I understand this is how the market works... the other side of the market is consumers voicing their opinions about what they want. I'm not sure how it's wrong for me to do so. Yours is the side that is tells us to just "move on" and "give up." How about you mind your own business and let use decide for ourselves how we want to spend our time? And as I've pointed out to you before, it's not a coincidence that so many people "whine" about wanting a sandbox and now a lot of sandbox games are on the horizon. Seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

2. You can't nebulously reference a thread where people argued with me for "5 pages" about how the market works. I KNOW how the market works, trust me. You don't have to teach me anything about free markets or economics in general. And tt's not a valid discussion if most of the people just don't respond to my points.

 

3. I don't think I've said any game is for kiddies, and I don't think I've called them "failures." At least not in a derogatory way. I may have pointed that games have failed, so what? You all LOVE to point out how old school games have "failed." You have a double standard here.

 

4. I call the developers who are being greedy and lazy greedy and lazy, sure. If you think I'm talking about the little guy who's just doing his job writing code, you're wrong. I'm talking about the people making the decision. If there's a developer that is looking to steal ideas from other games and hoping to ride a wave of easy money, I don't see the problem with pointing it out. It's not like I'm going after some "indie developer." In fact I rarely even mention a specific company. 

 

5. I'm pretty sure what I said was "just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean I'm wrong." And that's a completely true and reasonable thing to say. You have a tendency to simply say "you can't prove that" or "you don't know that" (even though I'm rarely claiming that I have proof for what I'm saying) without taking a stance one way or the other. In other words, ARGUE YOUR POINT. It's not an argument to say "that's your opinion." Yes, a lot of what I said is opinion, just like a lot of what you say is opinion, and a lot of what everybody here says is opinion. 

1. Forums are skewed toward the negative not by a little, but by A LOT. You cannot make any conclusions based on forums posts, because...
  • most people don't read forums
  • most people don't post on forums
  • and most of the posts represent an extreme view.
The ones that do post are a very special group among players which is bound to be skewed in a direction that poorly represents the community as a whole. For example, changes in Battefield Heroes' cash shop sparked massive outrage on the forums people proclaiming to quit the game etc., but looking at data months after the changes showed that even those most vocal about their discontent were still playing the game.
 
2. People felt the need to educate you because of your statements which could be seen as born out of ignorance. They also ignore some of your more weaker claims outright.
 
3. I haven't said old school games have failed. I am saying they were small. And I am saying there was a reason why they were small. Improvements in gameplay and a more "gamey" approach in general made MMOs much more popular.
 
4. Using a blanket statement "developer" also includes that one coder. And if you look at the industry, borrowing ideas is completely normal. In fact, new concepts are extremely rare. "Nothing new under the sun" etc.
 
5. Your exact words:
"[...] just because I can't prove it doesn't mean its not true."
 
By no means is that statement sensible. Me poking holes in your logic and questioning your judgement is the correct way to combat such arguments. It shows your reasoning can't be trusted. All you have is conjecture and speculation, yet you insist it is true - or at the very least "not true". What should we make of this?
 

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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