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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » A Couple of Gripes

9 posts found
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

 
OP  9/22/13 3:12:01 PM#1

I'm the type that reads every quest, whether it be side-quest or main story quest, and I quit reading them. Almost all the quest, aside from very few main story line quests are poorly written. I just did a quest the other day around level 30 (for Titan) that literally told me to go kill some rats. When I say very few of the main story line quests are decent, I mean that. Even the main story line is riddled with bad kill, collect, etc quests which are poorly written with only a paragraph of dialogue. That is something I'll give props to WoW, SWTOR, and many other newer MMORPG's for making a lot better. However, the storyline is actually pretty decent. It seems every 5 levels or so it'll give you an actual honest to god good quest and it'll be a challenge to complete. Now the Class Quests so far have been good, no complaints there. 

Earrings. WTF. They're always showing and I mean no offense to people who are gay, but I don't want to look that way. I've found no option to turn it off.

Tanking. It's becoming easier as I level, but I still feel like my Paladin lacks the tools necessary to hold agro on a pack of mobs. I have only 4 ways to generate agro. Shield Lob, which is my only ranged initiator and builds very little threat when compared to whatever strong attack or heal anyone leads off with. There's Flash, which is my ONLY aoe threat building spell, and it doesn't take long until I"m OOM if I need to spam it, not to mention it takes about 4 Flashes to regain agro when someone deals too much dmg or the healer goes balls to the wall in order to keep me alive. Provoke is actually a really nice single target threat building skill. Then I have my combat rotation. Fast Strike, which is what you must lead off of to start the chain, doesn't build enmity. My second and third strike does and no one can steal on the mob I'm using that rotation on. 

So what I've found to be most beneficial is to Shield Lob, Flash 3-4 times, and then begin my rotation. Use Provoke on whatever mob runs off to attack the healer, and Flash 2 more times for good measure. That usually leaves me in good stead, but at lvl 32 I'm still struggling to not only hold aoe threat, but also to mitigate damage. My Paladin is decked out in the latest normal tank gear, with a couple Aetherial items and a couple Green Items.

I guess that concludes my bitching session. Overall, I do like the game and I can't wait to find a great guild on Fimfrit and get into some dungeon crawling. 

  NicciNO

Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/10
Posts: 15

9/22/13 3:56:47 PM#2

Going to comment only on tanking, since the quest thing and earrings... well, I don't really care, no offense.

 

Speaking from a 35 pld/35 war perspective - things may change later on, but you're at the same level-ish:

Basically you never want to let the healer land a cure on you right as you engage the mobs. You shouldn't pull unless you're at full health or you are comfortable with the way the healer is doing his job.

Don't shield lob. Well, it's my preference, but usually I have plenty of time before the mobs notice me to run in and start the fight off with Fast Strike before they are on me. The second skill is flash once the rest of the mobs are close enough. Maybe another flash after that, depending on your group. Third is Savage Blade and fourth is Rage of Halone (think I remember those correctly). But they are not necessarily put on the first mob unless you know the rest will be slept. Remember, that first mob has taken autoattacks, fast strike, and a flash or two. If someone pulls that off you right off the bat, they need to stop pulling and let you do it :) I find that cycling through the mobs and dishing out threat where perceived necessary is a big deal of paladin tanking.

It is the damagedealers' job to figure out which mob the paladin wants them to go on first. This is usually the initial contact. Unless you're doing marks. Which should make it extremely obvious. But it is also the paladins job to read healthbars and figure out which targets to build threat on.

You can tell the difference between good and bad tanks by whether or not they tab-cycle through their tanking assignment. Personally I dislike groups where the tank is obviously just targeting one mob and hoping flashes will keep the rest of the mobs on him. It is very inefficient too if you have enough healing to keep all mobs unslept, and have damagedealers who can maximize dot uptime on all mobs.

Provoke is NOT a threat building skill. It gives you threat equal to the highest party members threat +1. Should never be used for anything but oh-shit moments/calculated maneuvers.

There's also Shield Bash that can be used to give you a little more time building threat on a mob if you know you're going to lose it soon, or just lost it. It's proper usage in that regard is not easy, but you'll get a feel for it.

Last but not least, if you're not hitting Shield Swipe a lot during a pull, you're doing it wrong. Yum-yum damage and hence threat, plus it helps with mitation :P

Oh, and this might annoy some people (whatever), but don't worry about letting a mob get away from you if it's clearly going to die soon anyway. If a damagedealer pulls it off you right as it's about to die, you built a perfect amount of threat on it. At most it might get a hit  in on a healer or damagedealer (special circumstances may apply). Big deal :)

  acidblood

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 230

9/22/13 4:55:50 PM#3

Yeah the main story line is a little padded... I still find myself reading all the quest text though, as IMO it is (mostly) well written and gives you an insight into various areas and characters.

Earrings thing... yeah would be nice to be able to turn them off, but can't say I notice them 99% of the time.

As for tanking.. I'm only level 26 GLA, but also have level 27 THM and 25 CNJ so I've seen all sides. A few tips I've found helpful:

1. There are aggro bars over the class icons on the party UI (once you engage a mob). They show relative enmity for that target. Also there are little green / yellow / red icons on the mob UI, they indicate relative enmity as well. DPS should also use this and hold back a little in necessary.

2. Mark your targets (top row, far right on the UI in the bottom right corner of the screen), as yeah, holding aggro on multiple targets against DPS is quite tricky, and usually goes to hell. As DPS it really helps to know what the tank wants to the focus on first, even if the order isn't optimal.

3. Switch to the next target early (i.e. current target is < 20% HP and you have good enmity), this lets you start you're combo before the DPS jump on it.

4. With regards to abilities:

- Flash builds good AOE enmity, but MP cost is high. It is a good opener for close knit packs and should soak up the first 4-5 heals. You'll want to recast it a few times throughout a fight to keep up with healer aggro, i.e. flash, combo, flash ... Also a good healer should hold back until after the first AOE enmity (that hits all the mobs in the pack), so make sure you do that ASAP.

- Provoke only levels you're enmity with the current highest enmity holder, so don't use it to build enmity initially. Also you need to use an enmity builder right after the provoke if you're going to hold the mob.

- Shield Lob is OK, but costly. It's main advantage is range, so it's a good opener (then flash once the rest of the pack is in range), or to get a mob back, but only if you're relative enmity is quite high (again use the bars on the party UI).

- Edit: Almost forgot, make sure you use your mitigation abilities preemptively, even firing one up as you run in, as this helps reduce healer enmity right at the beginning of the fight, which in my experience is the most critical point.

The rest of the parties behavior also plays a large part. Like I said mark your targets, and if DPS is constantly jumping in early tell them not to, or to use DOTs as an opener instead of their instant nukes... if they persist then let them tank it (it's a lot easier for you to get another party than for them :). 

Hope that helps.

  IMBanks

Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/13
Posts: 76

9/22/13 9:03:18 PM#4

Also only commenting on tanking.

First off, Pally tanking dramatically changes for the better at lvl40 when you finally get your tanking stance, called 'Shield Oath.'  It boost all of your threat skills and reduces your damage by 20%.  Those two make a huge difference.  Oh yes, it also reduces your outgoing damage 20%, but who cares about tank dps when grouped.

 

Second, I regularly group with 4 friends so may be spoiled as we work together well.  But here is what I typically do with your usual group of 3-4 mobs:

 

Number them all or maybe just the first mob (numbering successive mobs as we grind through the fight).  Then shield-lob to pull, and when you and the mobs meet up they are then usually nicely grouped around you.  Run through the mobs turning them around then flash. Start the single target dps chain on #1 but before getting through the chain flash again.  At this point, one or two of the mobs may have been slept, which is fine, as long as it's not #1.  Also at this point, dps can start engaging the first mob, being just a little easy at first. I keep going through the single target chain with a flash at the end of the chain to keep aggro on the mobs not yet being dpsed (whether or not they are slept). 

Before the first mob is dead, I mark and switch to mob #2 for the single target aggro chain, throwing in another flash to ensure that hate stays strong on the now-dying #1.  The early switch ensures you have strong aggro on #2 so that when dps later makes their own switch they can keep going full bore.  Be sure to dance a little to stay out of marked aoes but without turning the mobs around in a way that would harm the squishies.

If an add arrives or if a mob peels off early the best way to get it back is to provoke (getting you equal on the threat table +1) followed by a shield lob.  That should pull it right back to you without you having to run over to pick it back up, as long as whoever pulled the aggro has stopped doing whatever he was doing to pull it.

Additional provoke observation: there is actually a reason sometimes to pull first with provoke, followed by shield lob.  Provoke *isn't* an aggro builder, so pulling with it makes no intuitive sense.  However, it has a much longer range than shield lob and sometimes it is dangerous to get within shield lob range for the pull.  So provoke (gets his attention, but builds no substantial aggro) followed by shield lob when he gets a little closer, followed by the usual rotation.

 

Obviously this is just a template rotation.  There will be a need to improvise, folding in defensive skills, lots of positional stuff, etc.  But again, when you get your actual tanking stance you will be amazed at how much easier tanking gets.

Finally, you'll have noticed that in this game tanking takes a lot more work and aggro is something that is more of a group responsibility than a purely tanking matter as the game only has 2 of the 4 typical types of aggro skills.  It has straight-up +aggro, and threat copy (provoke) skills.  But it lacks any forced taunt (that forces mobs on you with temporary fake aggro for a short period) or aggro leech skill (that pulls agro off of group-mates and attaches it to yourself, which is useless at the beginning of a fight but can be a bread-and-butter skill later on in the fight).

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

 
OP  9/23/13 3:14:40 PM#5
Originally posted by NicciNO

Going to comment only on tanking, since the quest thing and earrings... well, I don't really care, no offense.

 

Speaking from a 35 pld/35 war perspective - things may change later on, but you're at the same level-ish:

Basically you never want to let the healer land a cure on you right as you engage the mobs. You shouldn't pull unless you're at full health or you are comfortable with the way the healer is doing his job.

Don't shield lob. Well, it's my preference, but usually I have plenty of time before the mobs notice me to run in and start the fight off with Fast Strike before they are on me. The second skill is flash once the rest of the mobs are close enough. Maybe another flash after that, depending on your group. Third is Savage Blade and fourth is Rage of Halone (think I remember those correctly). But they are not necessarily put on the first mob unless you know the rest will be slept. Remember, that first mob has taken autoattacks, fast strike, and a flash or two. If someone pulls that off you right off the bat, they need to stop pulling and let you do it :) I find that cycling through the mobs and dishing out threat where perceived necessary is a big deal of paladin tanking.

It is the damagedealers' job to figure out which mob the paladin wants them to go on first. This is usually the initial contact. Unless you're doing marks. Which should make it extremely obvious. But it is also the paladins job to read healthbars and figure out which targets to build threat on.

You can tell the difference between good and bad tanks by whether or not they tab-cycle through their tanking assignment. Personally I dislike groups where the tank is obviously just targeting one mob and hoping flashes will keep the rest of the mobs on him. It is very inefficient too if you have enough healing to keep all mobs unslept, and have damagedealers who can maximize dot uptime on all mobs.

Provoke is NOT a threat building skill. It gives you threat equal to the highest party members threat +1. Should never be used for anything but oh-shit moments/calculated maneuvers.

There's also Shield Bash that can be used to give you a little more time building threat on a mob if you know you're going to lose it soon, or just lost it. It's proper usage in that regard is not easy, but you'll get a feel for it.

Last but not least, if you're not hitting Shield Swipe a lot during a pull, you're doing it wrong. Yum-yum damage and hence threat, plus it helps with mitation :P

Oh, and this might annoy some people (whatever), but don't worry about letting a mob get away from you if it's clearly going to die soon anyway. If a damagedealer pulls it off you right as it's about to die, you built a perfect amount of threat on it. At most it might get a hit  in on a healer or damagedealer (special circumstances may apply). Big deal :)

Thanks, there's a couple things in there I didn't know about. I appreciate your help

 

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

 
OP  9/23/13 3:19:45 PM#6
Originally posted by acidblood

Yeah the main story line is a little padded... I still find myself reading all the quest text though, as IMO it is (mostly) well written and gives you an insight into various areas and characters.

Earrings thing... yeah would be nice to be able to turn them off, but can't say I notice them 99% of the time.

As for tanking.. I'm only level 26 GLA, but also have level 27 THM and 25 CNJ so I've seen all sides. A few tips I've found helpful:

1. There are aggro bars over the class icons on the party UI (once you engage a mob). They show relative enmity for that target. Also there are little green / yellow / red icons on the mob UI, they indicate relative enmity as well. DPS should also use this and hold back a little in necessary.

2. Mark your targets (top row, far right on the UI in the bottom right corner of the screen), as yeah, holding aggro on multiple targets against DPS is quite tricky, and usually goes to hell. As DPS it really helps to know what the tank wants to the focus on first, even if the order isn't optimal.

3. Switch to the next target early (i.e. current target is < 20% HP and you have good enmity), this lets you start you're combo before the DPS jump on it.

4. With regards to abilities:

- Flash builds good AOE enmity, but MP cost is high. It is a good opener for close knit packs and should soak up the first 4-5 heals. You'll want to recast it a few times throughout a fight to keep up with healer aggro, i.e. flash, combo, flash ... Also a good healer should hold back until after the first AOE enmity (that hits all the mobs in the pack), so make sure you do that ASAP.

- Provoke only levels you're enmity with the current highest enmity holder, so don't use it to build enmity initially. Also you need to use an enmity builder right after the provoke if you're going to hold the mob.

- Shield Lob is OK, but costly. It's main advantage is range, so it's a good opener (then flash once the rest of the pack is in range), or to get a mob back, but only if you're relative enmity is quite high (again use the bars on the party UI).

- Edit: Almost forgot, make sure you use your mitigation abilities preemptively, even firing one up as you run in, as this helps reduce healer enmity right at the beginning of the fight, which in my experience is the most critical point.

The rest of the parties behavior also plays a large part. Like I said mark your targets, and if DPS is constantly jumping in early tell them not to, or to use DOTs as an opener instead of their instant nukes... if they persist then let them tank it (it's a lot easier for you to get another party than for them :). 

Hope that helps.

I had an Archer who refused to do anything but their cone attack. I played the Archer into its 20's before going tank, so I know how garbage the damage is, but anyways, I told him if he kept pulling agro he'd tank it. A little while later he runs into a room and pulls a group of mobs, and I told him to tank it. The rest of the group helped him and guess what? He tanked it. I just loled and we rolled on.

  Hyanmen

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4951

9/23/13 4:03:45 PM#7
Originally posted by nate1980

I'm the type that reads every quest, whether it be side-quest or main story quest, and I quit reading them. Almost all the quest, aside from very few main story line quests are poorly written. I just did a quest the other day around level 30 (for Titan) that literally told me to go kill some rats. When I say very few of the main story line quests are decent, I mean that. Even the main story line is riddled with bad kill, collect, etc quests which are poorly written with only a paragraph of dialogue. That is something I'll give props to WoW, SWTOR, and many other newer MMORPG's for making a lot better. However, the storyline is actually pretty decent. It seems every 5 levels or so it'll give you an actual honest to god good quest and it'll be a challenge to complete. Now the Class Quests so far have been good, no complaints there.

All I can say is I agree that there are obvious filler portions in the main story, and the Titan questline has quite a few of them (although I must say it makes sense in the end).

The rest of the paragraph does confuse me however. The dialogue is nothing short of excellent in this game and goes to great lengths to use the English language to its full potential. It may even be hard for second language speakers to fully comprehend its intricacies and the word plays going on. In comparison to other FF games the quality is outstanding - clearly the game is not written for 13-year-olds.

The world is so well realized and it is apparent that the developers actually care to let it be known to the player, so the dialogue is a joy to read through. Not just the quest dialogue, but the named NPC's tend to reveal some important things as well. I am sure you've seen the old merchant fellow from the intro cutscene in one of the main story hubs looking for his missing brothers?

One of my recent favorites:

"The dig at Silvertear Falls has reached a new phase, and we are ready to excavate the fill from what we believe to be either a chocobo burial or the site of a grand feast."
 

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2500

9/23/13 4:14:09 PM#8

 Yeah, I'm kind of clueless as to the whole, " You're gay if you wear earrings" comment. 

 Lets talk about tanking; I'm one of the 200 some odd players who are currently at the last boss in the game (Bahamuts Coil - Turn 5). I'm going to out and say it; if you can't figure out how  to properly play a tank; change while you're ahead. I'm not trying to say this to offend you. However, if you can't figure out how to properly hold aggro then this games style of tanking isn't for you.

 If you're going to continue playing Paladin I highly recommend you get some help to learn the proper rotations for your class. There should really never be an issue with tanking as a Paladin. Heck, if you think Paladins have a hard time tanking Warriors are much harder to properly play.

 I'm in a guild who currently has 4 Coil groups running and 3 out of the 4 groups are using a double Paladin tank setup. We have no aggro-management issues. So I can guarantee that if my guilds Paladins have no issue doing it. Then you should have no issue doing it. If you need to, ask the DPS in your group(s) to slow down and watch their aggro meter. You can also throw up raid markers to help designate which monster to CC, DPS, and ignore while fighting.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2729

I actually still like MMORPGs

9/23/13 4:56:04 PM#9
Take your earrings off if they make you feel gay.