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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » SOE to attempt policing all your online activities.

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308 posts found
  JRRNeiklot

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/11
Posts: 102

9/20/13 8:11:19 PM#221
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by JRRNeiklot

Originally posted by Sovrath I should not be able to walk up to anyone and start blathering in their face about how ugly they are or stand in the lobby of some media company and decry the fact that their products show nudity or discuss creationism.    
Yes actually, you should be able to.  You probably shouldn't do it, but it should not be - and is not - illegal.


Uh, no. Sovrath's freedom ends where other peoples' freedom begins. He doesn't own the lobby of that media company, so the media company can determine whether or not he can be there.

Indeed, but that right is not based on what someone says or does elsewhere.  Nothing someone says in Sony's lobby is illegal, unless they are screaming obscenities.  What Sony is claiming is they can ban you because you cursed in your OWN house.  They can ban you for that, just like I can ban you from my house because I don't like the color of your shoes.  Doesn't make it right, though. 

  JRRNeiklot

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/11
Posts: 102

9/20/13 8:14:18 PM#222
Originally posted by fierce750

uhh I must be missing something?

What is the problem here?

Bottom line, don't be a Douchebag  and all will be fine.

But who decides what being a douchebag is?  If I post that I don't approve of gay marriage, or that I DO approve of it, I might lose access to all Sony's games?  All because some Sony rep was browsing Facebook and my political leanings don't line up with his?  That way lies madness.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/20/13 8:19:28 PM#223

The only real issue with SOE's policies is extending the behavior they are looking at to areas outside their games and forums. The criteria for who gets a ban isn't going to change. However draconian they are with their own forums or their own games is what can be expected for behavior outside of the games.

There is no question about whether or not they have a right to do this. They do. They can terminate server at any time and for any reason. They can view any information that is available to the public on the interwebs. The only real question is whether or not this is a good business decision.

I am willing to bet that people getting banned for something outside of SOE's games or servers is going to be a rare occurrence, but when it does get used, it'll get used in extreme cases, and it will be publicized. Cases in the news where someone gets bullied or worse through a social network where any of the people who are accused happen to play an SOE game can expect to find their accounts banned permanently. Stuff like that. My thinking behind this is that policing all their players and all the social networks that their players happen to participate in would be prohibitively expensive. Checking into people who have already received attention would be much easier to do.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17114

9/20/13 8:25:24 PM#224
Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by JRRNeiklot

Originally posted by Sovrath I should not be able to walk up to anyone and start blathering in their face about how ugly they are or stand in the lobby of some media company and decry the fact that their products show nudity or discuss creationism.    
Yes actually, you should be able to.  You probably shouldn't do it, but it should not be - and is not - illegal.


Uh, no. Sovrath's freedom ends where other peoples' freedom begins. He doesn't own the lobby of that media company, so the media company can determine whether or not he can be there.

Indeed, but that right is not based on what someone says or does elsewhere.  Nothing someone says in Sony's lobby is illegal, unless they are screaming obscenities.  What Sony is claiming is they can ban you because you cursed in your OWN house.  They can ban you for that, just like I can ban you from my house because I don't like the color of your shoes.  Doesn't make it right, though. 

But it's not your own house. It's twitter or a website or some place "out there".

they don't care about you being a dick in your own home. They do care if you are the type of person who goes out on the web and starts threatening people, harassing people and doing things that are illegal.

You seem to think that because you are sitting in the comfy chair you can extend your influence out on the net with no repercussions.

I want to see more companies do this.

I don't care what you do at home, I really don't. You want to watch depraved (yet consenting participants) movies/videos I say great. You want to do drugs, have orgies, write subversive poetry then the more power to you.

You start inflicting yourself on others then I have an issue with this.

I used the "lobby" example because "some" people think they can go wherever they  want and say whatever they want. They do this on forums all the time and start crying their freedom of speech when in reality it's not their forum.

If they want a forum to say whatever they want they can make their own blog/website "whatever" and say what they  want. I'll fight fortheir right to do it. But they shouldn't inflict themselves on others.

and when I say "yourself" and "you" in this context I'm talking about "those who do this" not saying that "you" in particular do this.

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/20/13 8:25:44 PM#225


Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Any business (at least in America) can refuse to serve someone.


But no business can take my money and not deliver the service or product.

Personally, i think nothing's eaten as hot as it's cooked.
But if they indeed just "ban" people, in the way it's done these days (simply shutting doen the account), then they'll get themselves into trouble.

EULA's aren't as binding as they want you think they are, even moreso if they are as long as SOE's and even less so if they're containing clauses that basically say "you pay and we decide what we can or will deliver for that money" which leave such a "contract" simply null and void.


What's really bad is the usage of the "serious enough".
What defines "serious enough"?
WHO decides what is "serious enough"?
Are these "standards" communicated in advance, and how?
Can a customer take action AGAINST a ban, and how?

Not only are there serious legal implications, they're also - at least potentially - cutting their own flesh:
Do you really want to live or play in a cencored environment?
I mean, i am aware - we all should be since Snowden - that in fact we DO already live in such a environment, but is it healthy not only for free speech but also for "fun"?

The goal might be a noble one, the method chosen is more then questionable.


Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
What people tend not to realize is freedom of speech is at a government level, as in the government can't restrict what you can say. A business has every right to restrict what you say as a customer or an employee.


That is actually only half-true.
No business has the right to restrict what i say in my free time and/or in matters that do not interfere with my duties to the business as such.

e.g. while McDonalds might get away with firing you for saying "Burger King's better" *IF* you do so while clearly on-duty, they cannot fire you for saying the same thing in your free time.
All they *can* do if you say "Burger King's better" *in* a McD. is ask you to leave the shop and never return.
(The "not wanting your business" part)
But they can not keep the burger you paid for simply because you said "Burger King's better", even if they ask you to leave and never return.
That burger has been sold, the transaction has been done, it's yours.
And the latter equals paying for an account and having it closed without a refund before the paid-for time is up.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/20/13 8:26:57 PM#226


Originally posted by JRRNeiklot

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by JRRNeiklot

Originally posted by Sovrath I should not be able to walk up to anyone and start blathering in their face about how ugly they are or stand in the lobby of some media company and decry the fact that their products show nudity or discuss creationism.    
Yes actually, you should be able to.  You probably shouldn't do it, but it should not be - and is not - illegal.
Uh, no. Sovrath's freedom ends where other peoples' freedom begins. He doesn't own the lobby of that media company, so the media company can determine whether or not he can be there.
Indeed, but that right is not based on what someone says or does elsewhere.  Nothing someone says in Sony's lobby is illegal, unless they are screaming obscenities.  What Sony is claiming is they can ban you because you cursed in your OWN house.  They can ban you for that, just like I can ban you from my house because I don't like the color of your shoes.  Doesn't make it right, though. 



That's not an accurate characterization of what they are doing. When someone puts something on Twitter, Facebook or any other social network, internet forum or even in comments on an article, they are putting things out into the public domain, visible to anyone. It doesn't matter where a person is sitting when they type the stuff in.

Sony isn't saying they are going to ban a person for something they say in their own house, but they have a right to do so. They are saying they will ban a person for their behavior out in public, which they also have a right to do.

How they exercise their right will determine whether or not it's a good business decision.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/20/13 8:30:01 PM#227


Originally posted by Morrok

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Any business (at least in America) can refuse to serve someone.

But no business can take my money and not deliver the service or product.

Personally, i think nothing's eaten as hot as it's cooked.
But if they indeed just "ban" people, in the way it's done these days (simply shutting doen the account), then they'll get themselves into trouble.

EULA's aren't as binding as they want you think they are, even moreso if they are as long as SOE's and even less so if they're containing clauses that basically say "you pay and we decide what we can or will deliver for that money" which leave such a "contract" simply null and void.


What's really bad is the usage of the "serious enough".
What defines "serious enough"?
WHO decides what is "serious enough"?
Are these "standards" communicated in advance, and how?
Can a customer take action AGAINST a ban, and how?

Not only are there serious legal implications, they're also - at least potentially - cutting their own flesh:
Do you really want to live or play in a cencored environment?
I mean, i am aware - we all should be since Snowden - that in fact we DO already live in such a environment, but is it healthy not only for free speech but also for "fun"?

The goal might be a noble one, the method chosen is more then questionable.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
What people tend not to realize is freedom of speech is at a government level, as in the government can't restrict what you can say. A business has every right to restrict what you say as a customer or an employee.



That is actually only half-true.
No business has the right to restrict what i say in my free time and/or in matters that do not interfere with my duties to the business as such.

e.g. while McDonalds might get away with firing you for saying "Burger King's better" *IF* you do so while clearly on-duty, they cannot fire you for saying the same thing in your free time.
All they *can* do if you say "Burger King's better" *in* a McD. is ask you to leave the shop and never return.
(The "not wanting your business" part)
But they can not keep the burger you paid for simply because you said "Burger King's better", even if they ask you to leave and never return.
That burger has been sold, the transaction has been done, it's yours.
And the latter equals paying for an account and having it closed without a refund before the paid-for time is up.




Businesses can take money and then refuse to serve a customer if that customer gives them a reason. Go to a movie, buy a ticket, then disrupt the movie for everyone else in the theater. You will be escorted out of the theater and you may or may not get your money back. If you had a right to the money, you would definitely get it back.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  barasawa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/05
Posts: 199

I have a wandering mind, but that's ok, it brings back presents.

9/20/13 8:31:25 PM#228

They do have the authority to ban people from their services if they act  inappropriately on those services.

On the other hand, it's none of their business (literally) to police what people do outside of their services, though it it's illegal, it can be argued they have a responsibility to forward it to the appropriate legal enforcement agency.

IANAL, however I do believe them punishing someone for something outside of their services, especially if it is legal, is in fact itself illegal. They are just begging for a discrimination & violating freedom of speech lawsuit.

 

Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/20/13 9:18:32 PM#229


Originally posted by barasawa
They do have the authority to ban people from their services if they act  inappropriately on those services.

On the other hand, it's none of their business (literally) to police what people do outside of their services, though it it's illegal, it can be argued they have a responsibility to forward it to the appropriate legal enforcement agency.

IANAL, however I do believe them punishing someone for something outside of their services, especially if it is legal, is in fact itself illegal. They are just begging for a discrimination & violating freedom of speech lawsuit.

 




None of SOE's services are public services. They are private, and as such can be refused at any time for any reason. Well, as long as the reason is race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. If someone is a bully on Facebook, they can use that as a reason to disable that person's SOE account. They could disable that person's account for posting too many pictures of LoL cats on Cheezeburger.

The only limit on SOE doing these types of things are the publicity, good or bad, that they receive, and how that publicity affects their business.

**

Not. Is Not race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Hulluck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 446

9/20/13 10:26:08 PM#230

Good for SOE. They have the right to refuse service to anyone.  I look at it as a person using social media services in the first place are the biggest liability to their own privacy. They have no one to blame but themselves especially if they are online asshats. Rather ironic I think.

Then comes a company wanting to clean their own community up a little, at the very east put those people on notice which have a history of online activity that SOE doesn't care for or want to be associated with.  I hope they at least turn the heat up for awhile and do a mass ban as an example. I doubt they will ban that many people truthfully. This is just a "shot across the bow" most likely  and nothing of substance will happen other than a few isolated cases, worst of the worst, getting banned. That said, imagine the amount of rage postings that would pop-up everywhere if they did do a mass ban.

 

  Hulluck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 446

9/20/13 10:27:52 PM#231
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by barasawa
They do have the authority to ban people from their services if they act  inappropriately on those services.

 

On the other hand, it's none of their business (literally) to police what people do outside of their services, though it it's illegal, it can be argued they have a responsibility to forward it to the appropriate legal enforcement agency.

IANAL, however I do believe them punishing someone for something outside of their services, especially if it is legal, is in fact itself illegal. They are just begging for a discrimination & violating freedom of speech lawsuit.

 




None of SOE's services are public services. They are private, and as such can be refused at any time for any reason. Well, as long as the reason is race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. If someone is a bully on Facebook, they can use that as a reason to disable that person's SOE account. They could disable that person's account for posting too many pictures of LoL cats on Cheezeburger.

The only limit on SOE doing these types of things are the publicity, good or bad, that they receive, and how that publicity affects their business.

 

Nail, meet Mr. Hammer! 

Spot on.

  Kaelaan21

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/07
Posts: 344

9/20/13 10:30:42 PM#232

All of the opinions in this thread aside on whether they are able or not able to do this is irrelevant.

 

People think that lawsuits are free of cost (and time) for the Plaintiff. Do you really think anyone in their right mind would spend an average of $250/hour for representation with a minimum of a $10,000 retainer to file a lawsuit against a major corporation when all that was lost was the ability to pay $15/month to the company you are suing in exchange for playing on their video game?

 

Any time intellectual property is involved, things get very grey and quite political in courts. Companies would first play the game of changing jurisdiction based on their corporate locations - forcing you to travel to a court on the other side of the country. Also, US consumer rights don't apply the same to non-US residents. So, good luck if you live outside of the US.

 

Factor in cherry picking which court the case presides (multiple courts in each courthouse can allow you to pick a judge that typically favors the defendants position), some states allowing the defendant to counter-suit legal fees in the event the plaintiff loses, plus a large corporation would drag their heals to make it as long as possible to quickly soak up your legal fund.

 

And before anyone mentions a "class action suit", it would be too much of an investment for any legal team with the risk of no return. It would be bad business for any law firm to even consider it.

 

So - This goes back to the reality of: they can do what ever they want until someone challenges them specifically on this issue and wins.

 

In essence, in most cases - civil laws only apply to those who are willing and able to pay for them. In this case - it's not worth it.

  Incomparable

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 754

9/20/13 10:50:00 PM#233
I think its about firstly trying to avoid things getting out of control.

Since its very easy to type bad things, and it just escalates from there.

Once people are continually typing not nice things because someone started to troll, then that atmosphere becomes hostile and not a ideal situation for recreation.

And can you ban someone for calling another person an idiot? If not, then you can't ban a person for being anti social online when its very easy to over react to such criticm and cynicism.

To properly enforce social rules, then they have to go to the root. And like i said if they do, then it becomes over trivial things.

Or they can at least claim such big reprecussions to set the tone for launch. I think launching with a certain majority acting a certain way is their goal with this announcement.

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/20/13 10:53:15 PM#234
Originally posted by Jyiiga

 At what point is the line drawn, who are they to go picking around through social media looking for negative comments. Does it end at their own personal pages or will they go beyond that? If I call their game a bucket of trash and hope they drive their cars into a lake are they going to feel the need to ban my ass from all their games.

Linda and her team have much more important and much more interesting things to do than what you're suggesting. If you are relentlessly slamming the game you either

a) not playing, at which you aren't negatively affecting their community (remember, this is the community team we are talking about)

or

b) playing, at which point if you're not doing it in game, you're not of their concern.

 

Your concerns of some evil ultra-censoring behemoth exacting personal justice on innocent people simply sharing the truth to make the world aware or whatever other scenario you want to present is completely irrelevant.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/20/13 10:54:57 PM#235
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by barasawa
They do have the authority to ban people from their services if they act  inappropriately on those services.

 

On the other hand, it's none of their business (literally) to police what people do outside of their services, though it it's illegal, it can be argued they have a responsibility to forward it to the appropriate legal enforcement agency.

IANAL, however I do believe them punishing someone for something outside of their services, especially if it is legal, is in fact itself illegal. They are just begging for a discrimination & violating freedom of speech lawsuit.

 




None of SOE's services are public services. They are private, and as such can be refused at any time for any reason. Well, as long as the reason is race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. If someone is a bully on Facebook, they can use that as a reason to disable that person's SOE account. They could disable that person's account for posting too many pictures of LoL cats on Cheezeburger.

The only limit on SOE doing these types of things are the publicity, good or bad, that they receive, and how that publicity affects their business.

**

Not. Is Not race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

 


"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  travamars

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/10
Posts: 452

9/20/13 10:58:00 PM#236
Don't be an ASS and you wont have to worry about it.
  User Deleted
9/20/13 11:12:35 PM#237
I think they are specifically talking about people threatening or harrassing devs via social media. The way some players think they have a right to talk to game developers is disgusting to be perfectly honest. Good on them for holding people accountable.
  User Deleted
9/20/13 11:19:33 PM#238
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Morrok

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Any business (at least in America) can refuse to serve someone.

 

But no business can take my money and not deliver the service or product.

Personally, i think nothing's eaten as hot as it's cooked.
But if they indeed just "ban" people, in the way it's done these days (simply shutting doen the account), then they'll get themselves into trouble.

EULA's aren't as binding as they want you think they are, even moreso if they are as long as SOE's and even less so if they're containing clauses that basically say "you pay and we decide what we can or will deliver for that money" which leave such a "contract" simply null and void.


What's really bad is the usage of the "serious enough".
What defines "serious enough"?
WHO decides what is "serious enough"?
Are these "standards" communicated in advance, and how?
Can a customer take action AGAINST a ban, and how?

Not only are there serious legal implications, they're also - at least potentially - cutting their own flesh:
Do you really want to live or play in a cencored environment?
I mean, i am aware - we all should be since Snowden - that in fact we DO already live in such a environment, but is it healthy not only for free speech but also for "fun"?

The goal might be a noble one, the method chosen is more then questionable.

 

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
What people tend not to realize is freedom of speech is at a government level, as in the government can't restrict what you can say. A business has every right to restrict what you say as a customer or an employee.




That is actually only half-true.
No business has the right to restrict what i say in my free time and/or in matters that do not interfere with my duties to the business as such.

 

e.g. while McDonalds might get away with firing you for saying "Burger King's better" *IF* you do so while clearly on-duty, they cannot fire you for saying the same thing in your free time.
All they *can* do if you say "Burger King's better" *in* a McD. is ask you to leave the shop and never return.
(The "not wanting your business" part)
But they can not keep the burger you paid for simply because you said "Burger King's better", even if they ask you to leave and never return.
That burger has been sold, the transaction has been done, it's yours.
And the latter equals paying for an account and having it closed without a refund before the paid-for time is up.

 




Businesses can take money and then refuse to serve a customer if that customer gives them a reason. Go to a movie, buy a ticket, then disrupt the movie for everyone else in the theater. You will be escorted out of the theater and you may or may not get your money back. If you had a right to the money, you would definitely get it back.

 

 

Thats definitely a better analogy. A MMO is a service / subscription rather than a product.  You are renting virtual time in their world.

If you had a subscription to a gym and you started abusing the staff there, you would be asked not to return and you would no longer be able to access the service, even though you paid for it. 

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

9/20/13 11:34:52 PM#239
I don't concern myself to much with anything SOE says. They have always been lots of talk and very little action. It doesn't matter if it's about a game or some policy like this. If I'm not mistaken aren't all SOE games F2P now anyways? So even if they did ban you what do you lose? Some time? Some station cash that goes on sale pretty regularly? Hollow threats that will in no way ever stop anyone from being an asshole.
  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

9/20/13 11:38:28 PM#240

Well then... DON'T harrass?

 

Look, we live in an age where game devs have received verbal death threats on social media websites. It is sad, very sad, but I think a MMO company has to draw some lines. One dev I think it was from Bioware recently quit over death threats to their family. Because of a video game! I think it should be in relation to the "crime", but on the issue of harassing... let's... not do this?

Is there a risk for abusing it from SOE? Certainly. But neither game developers nor fellow players are supposed to be target practice for personal insults or death threats.

 

As to the "freedom of speech" thing. Yes you are free to say developer X is an ugly dimwit, but SOE is free to say, he fine, we no longer make any deals with you.

 

 

tl;dr: Be well mannnered are we all are happier.

 

EDIT: On strictly legal terms, I am NOT so sure a permaban would hold in court. I mean, I am no lawyer, but if you BOUGHT a MMO, and you can't play it because you are banned, you technically have a product that does not function anymore they way you paid for. So CAN a company perma-ban you without a refund of the game? Or at all? Did anyone ever sue a company and fight against a permaban before a court? I dunno. A TOS is not so meaningful as companies tell us, because a TOS can not deprive you of rights. A store can ban you based on a crime, like when you steal. But insulting someone isn't so much a crime by the book. Tricky question. Does anyone know if anyone ever sued succesfully against a permaban?

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

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