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EverQuest Next

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General Discussion  » Why so few abilities on the action bar?

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70 posts found
  User Deleted
9/19/13 7:33:06 AM#21

GW1 had only 8 abilities and probably has one of the deepest combat systems out of any MMO style game.

In a system which limits your choice, it makes your build more strategic.

Also if they design the game well, those skills will be reactive and situational, changing based on how you use them.  For instance the skill changes at range, based on position relative to the target, how long you charge the skill for etc etc. There are lots of ways to have combat variety without cluttering your screen with skills. 

 

Here is how most MMOs with lots of skills work:

1) Put any non-situational skills into a macro based on DPS / healing / threat priority.

2) Spam that button.

3) Occasionally use situational skills like CC, CC breakers or emergency skills.

 

Having lots of skills does not make combat deep. You could say 'oh but you don't have to macro' ... and you would be correct. But then you would just be memorising the order anyway and playing whack-a-mole as skills come off cooldown, which is equally dull. Pretty much every hotbar game since EQ2 / WoW has been played this way.

 

EQN is trying to design a game where you dont need to watch your hotbar. If they can make the skills feel natural, situational and reactive then they will be onto a winner.

  kompleksaki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/11
Posts: 83

9/19/13 7:38:02 AM#22
Game launches as f2p. Number of abilities shouldn't be your main concern imo.
  User Deleted
9/19/13 7:38:34 AM#23
Originally posted by rungard

I believe GW2 made the mistake of not allowing the swap on the secondary abilities. Seemed very confined to me.

 

I think thats a fair point. For the system they had, and how weapons work, it really would have benefited from swapping utility skills as you swap your weapon.

I think my qualm with GW2 is that it was far too sterilised.  It was obviously designed with balance in mind, but they made it too restrictive.  I much preferred GW1s system.  Much more interesting character building.

It looks like EQN will be closer to GW1 than GW2 in terms of character building.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1808

9/19/13 7:53:16 AM#24
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Mastaccolli

There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

 

Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

 

You defeat yourself again, as there are no PC only shooters anymore. All shooters are mutliplatform.

And as they sell the most copies on XBOX360 and PS3... completely dwarfing PC sales these days....shooters are being developed as console game, then ported to PC.

 

PC only shooters released in the last 12 months (or so):

 

Chivalry (granted it's not really a shooter, but it's combat is still deeper than most MMOs)

ARMA III

Red Orchestra 2 (and Rising Storm)

Warface

Metro 2033 (and Last Light)

Planetside 2

Shootmania Storm

Rise of the Triad

 

You were saying?

 

  TheRealFantomex

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/13
Posts: 36

9/19/13 11:10:55 AM#25
I thought that EverQuest worked fine with 8 spell slots and was challenging in terms of knowing what you would need before hand. There are more components to combat than just how many slots are available on your hotbar.

EverQuest Nexus - http://www.eqnexus.com
Head of Social Media and part time writer/interviewer.

  sanshi44

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1058

9/19/13 11:20:07 AM#26
Originally posted by VintzQc

Hi,

This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

 

Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

 

Thx for your thoughts about that

 You get more than 8 skill/spell but can only use 8 at a time, if you think this makes combat too simple your mistaken, makes combat more tachtical Take EQ1 for example with caster you could only have 8 spell on the bar at a time, you needed 2 pick the spell best suited for the situation and switch themn out as things change. For example as a wizard you had a spell called evac which will teleport your whole group to a safe location (usualy start of zone) now this wasnt on you bar most of the time since limite slot it wasnt that useful unless thing go sour. So you would need to find out when u needed 2 use that spell asap and switch it out which took a few seconds to do then cast it.

With limited skill you need to use the right spell at the right time since u dont get a back up or switch out as needed it made the game more complex dispite having less skills.

Now lets face it most game with lots of skill your only realy cycling like 5 skills repeatativly + long cooldown skill you only use on boss fights and the rest being situation or buff that sit on the bar all the time.

As for me im looking forward to the whole 8 skills again i rather play the game than play the UI like everyone is use to :) Found combat more challenging/deep back in the days pre WoW where most game have limited spell they had axcess to at any given time but could switch em if need be :)

  sanshi44

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1058

9/19/13 11:27:07 AM#27
Originally posted by Mastaccolli

There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

 

 Pritty sure FF14 is on PS3 and it has a billion skills doesnt make the game harder though u just cycle 5-6 skill baiscly anyway + the cooldown skill on bosses.

  FlyinDutchman87

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/10
Posts: 187

9/19/13 11:35:22 AM#28

Yeah even with a controller you could realisticly use around  16 skills.

 

number of skills =/= depth. 

 

Have any of you every player divekick?

 

There are two buttons. Jump and Kick, anyone who says that game is shallow is an idiot. It makes the game into a chessmatch of timing, mind games, and skill. Which is as much as any combat can ask for.

 

That's not saying EQN will be simlilar because I have no idea. I'm just saying number of skills is a bad judge of the complexity and fun of combat.   

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/19/13 12:28:44 PM#29
Originally posted by Dutchman87

Yeah even with a controller you could realisticly use around  16 skills.

 

number of skills =/= depth. 

 

Have any of you every player divekick?

 

There are two buttons. Jump and Kick, anyone who says that game is shallow is an idiot. It makes the game into a chessmatch of timing, mind games, and skill. Which is as much as any combat can ask for.

 

That's not saying EQN will be simlilar because I have no idea. I'm just saying number of skills is a bad judge of the complexity and fun of combat.   

Hmm so the whole combining button pressing.  The Xbox controller which is now the default PC controller has a whole 4 buttons and 4 triggers.  So that equals 8 buttons.  You can subtract then multiply the number of button by taking one or more buttons and converting them into switch mode.  So take the Xbox controller again.  Change Left Trigger 2 to a switch the other buttons now are doubled so the Original 8 minus the 1, which now counts as two, times the 7 remaining buttons  is 14. Take both Left and Right Trigger 2s and make then independent switches (they only operate one at time) the remaining 6 buttons become 18 buttons.  Make the two triggers inter-related switches and the count moves to 24. 

But the real issue is that people that don't play FPS don't want to mess with button combinations so the original 8 are just that, 8. 

So why don't we just wait and find out together how exactly they really plan to implement combat and combinations.  Combinations may work but we don't know how yet.  Will it be combining button presses or cycling through the buttons? We will see in due time. 

Last parting shot.  When using the keyboard and smashing the 8 skill buttons; let's not forget that the mouse usually has three buttons too.  But the mouse buttons will probably be like WASD in that they are the same for every player.  But what if right clicking acted like a switch and changed the original 8 button into 16.  All while you are still watching the action and instinctively pressing the appropriate buttons when it seems natural to release a barrage of arrows or rush in slashing with both swords.

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/19/13 12:42:03 PM#30
Originally posted by VintzQc

Hi,

This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

 

Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

 

Thx for your thoughts about that

You actually will have 4 weapon skills and 4 interchangeable character skill.  They also mentioned that there maybe combinations.  So 4 weapon skills may become:

Button 1 use skill 1

Button 2 use skill 2

Button 3 use skill 3

Button 4 use skill 4

Button 1 and 2 use skill combo 5

Button 1 and 3 use skill combo 6

Button 1 and 4 use skill combo 7

Button 2 and 3 use skill combo 8

Button 2 and 4 use skill combo 9

Button 3 and 4 use skill combo 10

And that is just combining the weapon based skills.

The character skill may also combine say take an Ice spell and combine it with a wind vortex and now you have an Ice Tempest.

 

And the word is still mum on PVP overall and even less being said about its scope.  My hope is that they appease both groups and create multiple servers and rule sets.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

9/19/13 1:33:07 PM#31

If they balance the game for PvP like they did with GW2 it will be fail for PvE players. I like PvP games and I understand the need for balance, but PvE playing is better when you can have diversity of builds that have actual varying levels of effectiveness depending on how they are used. I suspect the rumored lack of in-combat weapon switching is designed along the idea of balance, which is awful. It's nice to be able to switch weapons as it adds another layer of flexibility. You'd think with this restrictive 8 button bar they would at least allow that bar to be more dynamic

 

 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  grifj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/13
Posts: 111

9/19/13 2:27:13 PM#32

One of the few things I like about EQN is that it will have fewer abilities available at one time.  I loved EQ1's design with only up to 8 spells and where melee types (and even non-hybrids until they hit casting level) had only a few different abilities until much later on.  The game was about the game, not about clicking a bunch of buttons or memorizing long sequences of abilities.  It was about managing pulls, teamwork, positioning, and efficient use of the spells and abilities you had available to you, rather than about spamming buttons.  I deplore the EQ2/WoW model of having rows and rows of abilities to click on.  Bleh.

So while I don't like EQN's apparent positioning with its cartoony graphics, destructible EVERYTHING, parkour movement, and other things that seem more appropriate for a console action RPG than a MMORPG, that is one of the few things I like.

I do not, however, like the idea of having abilities tied to specific weapons. 

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11792

9/19/13 2:28:33 PM#33
Originally posted by evilastro

It looks like EQN will be closer to GW1 than GW2 in terms of character building.

hope you're right

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 795

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

9/19/13 2:33:09 PM#34
Originally posted by VintzQc

Hi,

This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

 

Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

 

Thx for your thoughts about that

Personally I feel your worrying over nothing and I'd worry after we know more as no one can see how everything works and until then it's pointless getting worked up.

The Bandit

  VintzQc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  9/19/13 5:07:30 PM#35

My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

 

Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

  Jebb

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 19

9/19/13 5:59:22 PM#36
A need for a thousand macros strewn across obscure combinations of buttons on the keyboard is only born of otherwise lackluster and uninteresting combat mechanics. That being said, I at least hope that they include a weapon swap. Management of which abilities you have to hand and deciding when to make the swap is far more interesting to me than having to concoct an impossible array of key-bindings.

"Jesus promised to rid the world of all wicked people. Odin promised to rid the world of all ice giants. I don't see many ice giants."

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

9/19/13 6:05:30 PM#37

Because ...

A. They want anyone with an iq below 0 to understand it so they can profit more.

B. They can have a lot of classes without ruining balance so much.

C. See A...

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/19/13 6:45:53 PM#38
Originally posted by VintzQc

My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

 

Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

you get 8 abilities at a time, which I think is plenty but....you have to be able to switch out both banks of 4 on the fly, so in effect you have 16 abilities with the limitation that you have to group them in fours..Still very tactical with lots of flexability.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1939

9/19/13 7:08:26 PM#39
Originally posted by VintzQc

Hi,

This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

 

Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

 

Thx for your thoughts about that

After I have read somewhere about this silly limitation (that drove me away from TSW as sole reason) that spells button masher, I have lost any interest in this game. Even rarely read any forums regarding. When I do is actually to check if something changed about.

  nisrak

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/13
Posts: 70

9/19/13 7:10:39 PM#40
Originally posted by ThomasN7

Because ...

A. They want anyone with an iq below 0 to understand it so they can profit more.

B. They can have a lot of classes without ruining balance so much.

C. See A...

In EQ1 raiding Plane of Time my warrior had 3 main abilities: auto-attack, taunt, and kick (plus a couple macros for discplines).  Tanking Rallos-Zek or Quarm was extremely difficult and exciting and the smallest mistake meant a wipe and 30-minute corpse recovery.

In WoW raiding black temple or mount hyjal in Burning Crusade, my mage had dozens of abilities but I could spam my 3 main abilities and usually be top of dps charts, as long as I wasn't too stupid to check if I was standing in fire.  Since then, they have only added more abilities and people tend to agree the game is even easier...

I think the argument that more abilities = harder really makes no sense.

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