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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Remember the good old MMO's? Taking off my rose-colored glasses and seeing reality

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578 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

9/19/13 12:33:28 PM#321
Originally posted by hardicon
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hardicon
This sites definitions of mmos is so loose you can basically apply cod and battlefield games as mmos.  This site should change its name to onlinegames.com personally because that is what it basically covers.  It also lists and talks about things like leage of legends and world of tanks as mmos.  Both are great games but neither is a mmorpg.  Marvel Heroes is not even a rpg if you can only play premade characters from the marvel universe.  Isnt it more of a moba.

If you can get the whole industry, this and other MMO sites to use a new label, i will use it too. Until that day, i use "MMO" because it is convenient.

And no, Marvel Heroes is not a MOBA. MOBAs are pvp instanced games (how the label is typically used).

I got turned off from Marvel when they said you cant make your own toons but have to use the marvel universe toons that are all premade.  Kind of a wtf moment for me but as far as a label I don't need a new label.  I normally don't get too caught up in what people want to label their games.  Was just pointing out that playing a online single player game with other people is not the same as playing and enjoying a true mmorpg.

Sure, you have your preference and i have mine.

In fact, i am very excited that i can play marvel characters. I don't play DC Universe precisely because i have to play a batman knock-off and i cannot play batman himself.

Well, like it or not, many games labeled as MMORPG today can be played as solo/SP online games, and i do that all the time.

I don't particularly care what a "true" MMORPG is. Different people here would argue about it all day anyway. The point is that i will continue to use the "MMO" label, because it is convenient to refer to this category of games, and some of which can be (and i do) played as solo games.

 

 

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3429

9/19/13 1:08:24 PM#322
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations. 

The market research demonstrably exists, it's been done by companies who know how to reach these conclusions.  You have nothing but your own assumptions.

Guess which one I trust more?

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

9/19/13 1:23:10 PM#323
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations. 

The market research demonstrably exists, it's been done by companies who know how to reach these conclusions.  You have nothing but your own assumptions.

Guess which one I trust more?

Market research does not have to be flawless to be useful. Secondly, market research is at least information gathered by professionals ... which i will trust 100x more than random opinions on the internet.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

9/19/13 4:27:29 PM#324


Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.


They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  IsilithTehroth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 140

9/19/13 4:36:56 PM#325
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.

 


They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?

Exactly this; you don't have gamers doing this research. You have suits that try an gather what the casual players want; which does not help the genre. Most casuals could care less about deep gameplay as long as on the surface they get their flashy, new, famous IP game.

Mmorpg use to be all about creating the best online virtual experience you could, but casuals came in and made it all about themselves. One good thing about casuals though; is that some become hardcore players.

MurderHerd

  Moirae

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2553

9/19/13 5:04:50 PM#326
Originally posted by IsilithTehroth
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.

 


They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?

Exactly this; you don't have gamers doing this research. You have suits that try an gather what the casual players want; which does not help the genre. Most casuals could care less about deep gameplay as long as on the surface they get their flashy, new, famous IP game.

Mmorpg use to be all about creating the best online virtual experience you could, but casuals came in and made it all about themselves. One good thing about casuals though; is that some become hardcore players.

Wow. Arclan and isilith hit the nail on the head. 

  ThomasN7

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6602

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

9/19/13 5:13:58 PM#327
Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

9/19/13 5:49:07 PM#328
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.

 


They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?

They buy marketing research from companies like newzoo and superdata. Don't tell me you think those companies gather MMO data just for fun.

 

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 156

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

 
OP  9/19/13 6:16:03 PM#329


Originally posted by ThomasN7
Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.

YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4742

9/20/13 2:46:53 AM#330
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by ThomasN7
Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.


YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.

 

Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.

The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's. :D

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2713

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/20/13 1:57:46 PM#331


Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.

They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?

Market researchers also tend to give reports their clients (they are paid to make points) want to hear. Statistics are fun that way. They can be shown in any light favorable to what needs to be shown.

The best part is the theory that a small segment (less .1%) can be expanded to an accurate overall conclusion. Not too dissimilar from using a poll on a website to gather facts, yes?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2713

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/20/13 2:01:59 PM#332


Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

Originally posted by ThomasN7
Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.

YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.

Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.

The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's. :D



And... my favorite part, many that are pleased as punch admittedly spend nothing on the games they enjoy. That makes so much sense. "Let's cater to the players who will spend nothing and keep them happy!" What bright mogul thought that one up?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3403

9/20/13 3:06:04 PM#333
A mogul that is swimming in money. The viability and profitability of F2P is no longer in question due to the success of numerous MMOS.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

9/20/13 3:33:56 PM#334
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


And... my favorite part, many that are pleased as punch admittedly spend nothing on the games they enjoy. That makes so much sense. "Let's cater to the players who will spend nothing and keep them happy!" What bright mogul thought that one up?

 

Yeah .. it makes a lot of sense. Let's the whales pay. As long as my taste is close to some whales, i am all set.

The bright mogul who is making tons of money off f2p games now?

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 156

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

 
OP  9/20/13 9:06:50 PM#335


Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by DrCokePepsi  

Originally posted by ThomasN7 Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.  
Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.

The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's. :D



So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3429

9/21/13 1:53:32 AM#336
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.

 

It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd?  They've never been more successful!

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4742

9/21/13 3:37:57 AM#337
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.

 

It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd?  They've never been more successful!

Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5370

I dare you to pin a label on me.

9/21/13 8:40:30 AM#338

I am getting quite tired of all this willful ignorance and the holier-than-thou-attitude of the fans of MMOs past. Anyone who tries to take a moderate stance, an objective stance gets labelled as the enemy. This has grown into a religion; Rational arguments don't apply.

Church of Old-School

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4742

9/21/13 9:01:26 AM#339
I am not sure you are referring to me, perhaps you could point out where I am going wrong? If modern MMOs are full of niche genres and not one huge mish mash, please tell me the names of all these niche MMOs? If modern MMOs are retaining most players beyond the 2 to 3 month point, do tell us which ones. Gaming company senior figures have expressed their concern about how this model is effecting their companies. Put yourself in their shoes. If you were on the staff of a company that only employed you for one or two years and then you had to look for another game to work on would you stick with that as a career for life?
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

9/21/13 9:36:23 AM#340
Originally posted by Scot
 

Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.

Nah .. such design is catered for game hoppers. If players want many short fun games, instead of a one long one, devs should accomodate that.

 

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