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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMORPGs are not for casual players.

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160 posts found
  Siris23

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/13/09
Posts: 188

9/19/13 3:34:07 PM#21

I think the industry, or at least the big development houses, are say exactly the opposite:

 

MMOs aren't for the hardcore.

 

The "hardcore" demand to much and offer to small of numbers to develop for.

  ropenice

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

9/19/13 3:37:56 PM#22
I agree with the overall impact of the casualization of the genre has made it worse for those that appreciated the approach and mechanics of earlier games. The challenge factor and world immersion has been lowered by a large margin for most recent games, but really there is nothing to do about it. They make games to make money and they aren't going to give up all that money to give players a real challenge or time consuming content (and I don't count 8 hard dungeons or raids that you repeat as making a game challenging). Every encounter should have a challenge or learning curve to it to provide consistent challenge and excitement. And thats just my preference in a game.
  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1594

9/19/13 3:40:34 PM#23
Originally posted by Burdoc101

WoW is not bad for the MMORPG genre. Infact it opened the doors too so many players who may have never played a: RPG; fantasy; video game; or MMO before. Which means larger communities in the future for MMOs in general.

We are apart of an ever evolving art. Video games are constantly changing and updating. Our past memories of video games come from games that were limited in development by the technology at the time.  I feel nostalgia can block our sense what makes a good game today, because of what we miss from the "good ole days". What do we really miss though from those days?

We miss what we enjoyed playing. You obviously have a specific game in mind and are not pleased that developers have not made it. And while it is a shame companies want to copy successful ideas, they are in it for the money still. There is a market for niche titles, casual being a niche title itself. MMO companies are missing out on this. However, there is no perfect MMO, only perfect MMOs. People love variety. You don't have a taste for casual games, but others do. Same goes for people who prefer PVE or PVP servers. 

To say that MMORPGs are not for casual players has been proven wrong already by the millions subscribed to WoW.


I'm in full agreement with this. I am a mmo vet of the past 15 or so years. I played Asheron's Call right out the gate and I was hooked into mmos. While there have been some questionable decisions made by various developers over the years, I feel that WoW was one of the better things to have happened to the genre, since it opened everything up. The small overall population of mmos back in the day would not have been large enough to support the myriad of mmos we have today. While more focus could have been good, there are multiple mmos out there that give many people a wide variety of choices, and variety is a good thing.

To state that the genre isn't for casuals, when the casuals are seemingly the largest population of money spenders, is quite silly. People play themepark mmos, because they seem to enjoy them. Hell, just look at the initial success of FF XIV: ARR, it's exceeded SE's expectations considerably. Obviously the formula works.

I will agree with another commenter that stated that Guild Wars 1 was a perfect non-mmo for the casual crowd. I actually feel that the co op-rpg genre is extremely under utilized within the scope of gaming, and as cringe worthy as the comment might be, the co op-rpg might be a good nesting ground for more hardcore/niche gaming. Imagine a Dark Souls co op-rpg style game (it would be more like an open pvp rpg though), I think that could be a real hit with the hardcore crowd. The thing that will stunt co op-rpg sized games is the thinking that if you're going to go to all of the trouble to make an online game of this nature, you may as well make a mmo.

The bottom line is that the casual crowd brought in a ton of money to the genre, and everyone wants a bite.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

9/19/13 3:42:28 PM#24
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

MMORPGs are not for casual players.


MMORPGs have, at their core, been mutilated. The once hardcore niche genre for those who truly enjoyed MMORPGs have been swimming in bad games since WoW came out. Not yet (besides Eve and a select few) have any games truly deserved the label of MMORPG. The casuals should realize what they want and stride for that rather than try to turn the MMORPG genre into something it's just not.

Really?

I enjoy many MMOs like STO and marvel heroes with very casual play. Even NWO. I would claim that modern MMOs are pretty much begging casual players to play.

Oh .. you got it backwards. I really don't care about turn the MMORPG genre into anything.

However, if the devs cater to my needs, and practically beg me to play and offer it to me for free, i see no reason why i don't take advantage of it. Do you?

If devs don't think MMORPGs are not for casual players, I won't be here posting. So you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want your kind of games, try to convince devs, not casual players who wouldn't care about what you say anyway and play what they think are fun games.

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

9/19/13 3:43:40 PM#25

Have fuel efficient compacts ruined the automotive industry? Did banning cigarette ads from TV ruin cigarette sales?  Did Barry Bonds ruin Baseball for everyone?  The answer to all the above, including your poll is no.

 

The first MMORPGs came out built the way they were because the people that made them wanted them that way. The second group looked at the first games and said OK, what do we like and how can we improve things to get more people to play them. The goal in the beginning was to grow the market to make the genre more accepted by gamers in general.  Now 15 to 20 years after the first MMOs started to be developed the next generation of game makers is moving forward towards that next stage. People now are no longer trying to build the WoW killer and instead focusing in on things that will take the genre past it.

I must have missed the memo that said ALL MMORPGS require someone to play 24/7, and I have worked on video games for almost 15 years.  I mean what are the defining metrics that make a player a Hardcore Player?  Are all hardcore players PvP, Perma-death, Raiders or are they people who can spend 16 hours a day playing the same game? Is a gamer that plays 2 hours per game in 5 different style games qualify as a hardcore gamer? In the end unless the game is specifically designed to a particular play style then all the different play styles are all considered equally on a single player basis.  MMORPGs come in all shapes and sizes as well as with different payment options so there is a game for anyone, but you may have to look for it.

 

TLDR - As soon as the genre stops being a living growing business it will stop living. Until then it will continue to expand past it's origins.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

9/19/13 3:45:16 PM#26
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

 

TLDR - As soon as the genre stops being a living growing business it will stop living. Until then it will continue to expand past it's origins.

yeh, and it adapts to the market demand. modern MMOs are much better games than the old ones (for me).

 

  Darknessguy64

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/13
Posts: 237

9/19/13 3:49:24 PM#27
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?

 

I'm pretty sure most people here don't know anything about WoW past Raid Finder.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17219

9/19/13 3:51:44 PM#28
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

MMORPGs are not for casual players.


1, MMORPGs of old (here I go again) were based on the principles of what is now defined as a sandbox in general.

2, MMORPGs were intended to be open-world, have heavy and involved character development, and introduce people to a fantasy world where you could do what you want at any point, leaving the community to combine and create guilds, adventure and explore the map, and build upon their social foundation.

3, MMORPGs are social games.

1, Are "today's mmorpg's based on the principles of "sandbox"?

2, Are today's mmorpg's, at least those on the market at the moment, made to be open-world with heavy character development with weight on community involvement?

3, Are today's MMorpg's social games?

 

If the answer is "no" then I would say that MMORPG'S are no longer these things and your initial response is now incorrect.

Though quite frankly I would argue that they are still social.

I'd also argue that your list really doesn't speak to the idea of casual as opposed to hardcore because casual players could easily want a sandbox game that has involved character development and heavy community involvement making them social games.

They will just want to be able to play them and get things done in shorter time periods.

  Pin_Cushion

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/11
Posts: 38

9/19/13 3:57:45 PM#29
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 

A game's success should not be measured in it's financial earnings...

 

I think many developers, and certainly most publishers would vehemently disagree with you.  Nobody wants to borrow millions of dollars to create a beautiful, unique snowflake that doesn't sell.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1466

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

9/19/13 4:03:27 PM#30

I use my  poop socks  twice before I change them

 

Is that "Hardcore" enough for ya?

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2752

9/19/13 4:09:21 PM#31
Originally posted by Darknessguy64
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?

 

I'm pretty sure most people here don't know anything about WoW past Raid Finder.

Actually WOW was pretty damn difficult in its early years. Vanilla WOW - AQ and Naxx were extremely hard. I am sure that most of these badass hardcore players haven't even been to any of these raids. Also Sunwell. Nuff said. WoW back in the day was not so casual friendly. It took ages to get to max level (I think I needed 2-3 months to get to level 60 and was playing only 1 char) and the grind at max level was crazy. But it was fun.

Long story short: WoW was the best MMO ever. The crap that followed was just that. Crap. The games before WoW were crap too (for me). EQ was the most boring game I've ever played. UO at least was somewhat fun :D

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

9/19/13 4:14:03 PM#32


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?


Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.



Originally posted by fivoroth
...WoW back in the day was not so casual friendly. It took ages to get to max level (I think I needed 2-3 months to get to level 60 and was playing only 1 char) and the grind at max level was crazy. But it was fun....EQ was the most boring game I've ever played.


If you are used to Wow's themeparkness and fast leveling, and I assure you max level in two months is fast; then of course you would find EQ boring. For the same reason, WoW poses no challenge and hence offers no appeal to most EQ players.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  neobahamut20

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 359

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

9/19/13 4:16:57 PM#33
Originally posted by Tygranir
I think "Hardcore" players are just choosing the wrong MMOs to play. What you are looking for is out there.

No he has a point when he says MMORPGs try to cater to more than 50 000 people and shoot for the 4 950 000 others. Oh wait, it actually makes sense for business. My opinion is that those who label themselves as "hardcore gamers" really have nothing of value in their lives to go after, not even money, so it is futile to try and cater to them.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  neobahamut20

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 359

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

9/19/13 4:19:51 PM#34
Originally posted by Pin_Cushion
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 

A game's success should not be measured in it's financial earnings...

 

I think many developers, and certainly most publishers would vehemently disagree with you.  Nobody wants to borrow millions of dollars to create a beautiful, unique snowflake that doesn't sell.

That being said, if you focus on the money the game is not going to meet the expectations of the playerbase and you won't get money for your pile of junk either. So developers should get a hint and start focusing on quality instead of what rakes in money.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  Electro057

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/09
Posts: 537

9/19/13 4:23:47 PM#35
Originally posted by ray12k
Originally posted by Electro057
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?

They're far too busy trolololling forums and whining to do that! They'd rather complain than ever actually play a game! Are you kidding? If they wanted to play hardcore super elite games they'd just go back and play the games that popped their cherries that they won't shut up about. 

or they can be jocking every released games nuttz patting the devs backs on releasing  a game that last 6 months tell ftp.....

I'm far from patting any devs on the back, current or old...They all suck equally in their own ways, I've yet to find a game that has really made me all that happy.....They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and they for the most part all have evil money grubbing devs....Though I can respect that, I like money too.

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  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/19/13 4:23:48 PM#36
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?


Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.

This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.

The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.

My computer is better than yours.

  neobahamut20

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 359

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

9/19/13 4:31:11 PM#37
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?


Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.

This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.

The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.

And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard. What is starting to make me want to leave GW2 is the fact that good players are rare, though in a game that is so shallow that the only tactic is stacking and where the devs only look for ways to get people to buy their gems, I may be asking for too much, so I still play because it costs nothing to play and laughing at bad players is always fun.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  Panther2103

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2075

9/19/13 4:31:31 PM#38
I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game. 
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/19/13 4:33:41 PM#39
Originally posted by neobahamut20
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?


Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.

This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.

The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.

And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard.

Yet the "top" guilds beat the hardest heroic raids on every WoW server. Maybe you didn't search hard enough, or maybe your skill isn't as great as you seem to think it is? Maybe it is those good players who are laughing at you?

My computer is better than yours.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/19/13 4:34:09 PM#40

These forums have turned in to a Glen Beck show. Just post the most wild and inflammatory thing you possibly can to get attention.

 

 

Sad part is it works every time and real discussions go no where.

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