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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMO developers steer too far into casual friendly

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279 posts found
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

9/16/13 6:16:00 PM#141
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by ray12k

[mod edit] p2p does make more money.

orly?

 

You never provided me with links earlier. You referenced narius's post and said something about a global collection report or something? Narius' link I THINK includes MOBAs, and that would make it entirely useless to the discussion.

But you are talking about Lokto's link here... what's your point?

I'm talking about exactly what I'm talking about.....? Are you his keeper?

If you look at my post history, you will see that I'm definitely not. That doesn't stop me from being a mature adult able to admit when one of my former "opponents" (so to say) is right. I don't like the F2P model, but it's definitely making money. How and to whose expense is another story, of course.

Well in this particular case you're just misinformed. I'm referencing a conversation I had with him earlier in the thread.... that's why I said "earlier." So I'm not sure what you're saying he's "right" about, but it seems pretty irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

9/16/13 9:02:03 PM#142
Originally posted by Holophonist

And the point many of us are trying to make is that production costs have gotten so high because of the shift towards AAA themeparks with a strong emphasis on "content" instead of interesting persistent systems. Developers appealing to more and more players wasn't some necessity due to the increased cost of creating a game.

But I think that's backwards.  It's not that developers are spending so much money on their games that it requires a massive audience to pay for it all, developers want the maximum number of people to play, therefore they are spending a lot of money in development costs to make it as appealing to the largest group of people possible.  It costs more to make games that are that inclusive because the developers have to do what their investors tell them to:  make games that make the biggest possible return on investment.

You're looking at it backwards.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

9/16/13 9:04:00 PM#143
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

In other words, players want a good MMO, developers cant seem to deliver one.

That's wrong, there are more people playing MMOs today than at any other time in the history of the genre.  Developers are doing just fine.  The problem is that *YOU* want a game that is niche and developers don't pay attention to the kind of game you want because it doesn't make them nearly enough money.

The problem isn't the developers.  The problem is your tastes.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

9/16/13 9:17:12 PM#144
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Holophonist

And the point many of us are trying to make is that production costs have gotten so high because of the shift towards AAA themeparks with a strong emphasis on "content" instead of interesting persistent systems. Developers appealing to more and more players wasn't some necessity due to the increased cost of creating a game.

But I think that's backwards.  It's not that developers are spending so much money on their games that it requires a massive audience to pay for it all, developers want the maximum number of people to play, therefore they are spending a lot of money in development costs to make it as appealing to the largest group of people possible.  It costs more to make games that are that inclusive because the developers have to do what their investors tell them to:  make games that make the biggest possible return on investment.

You're looking at it backwards.

Mmmm I think you're confused. That's exactly what I'm saying. They're specifically trying to appeal to more people. The point others have tried to make is that production costs got so high that they simply had to appeal to more people, thus you have the watered down gameplay of themeparks. I'm saying they wanted to appeal to more people (thanks WoW) and then came the increase in aesthetics and streamlining etc.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

9/16/13 9:18:53 PM#145
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

In other words, players want a good MMO, developers cant seem to deliver one.

That's wrong, there are more people playing MMOs today than at any other time in the history of the genre.  Developers are doing just fine.  The problem is that *YOU* want a game that is niche and developers don't pay attention to the kind of game you want because it doesn't make them nearly enough money.

The problem isn't the developers.  The problem is your tastes.

More people playing doesn't mean better games. In fact holding most things constant I would say it usually means a worse game. Worse as in less targeted, more mainstream, etc. Just like with music, tv, movies, etc, you can either appeal to a specific group of people on a deep level, or appeal to the masses on a more shallow level.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/16/13 9:40:09 PM#146


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Holophonist And the point many of us are trying to make is that production costs have gotten so high because of the shift towards AAA themeparks with a strong emphasis on "content" instead of interesting persistent systems. Developers appealing to more and more players wasn't some necessity due to the increased cost of creating a game.
But I think that's backwards.  It's not that developers are spending so much money on their games that it requires a massive audience to pay for it all, developers want the maximum number of people to play, therefore they are spending a lot of money in development costs to make it as appealing to the largest group of people possible.  It costs more to make games that are that inclusive because the developers have to do what their investors tell them to:  make games that make the biggest possible return on investment.

You're looking at it backwards.




There is more than one factor contributing to video games in general getting more expensive to develop. To write a game now, comparable to a game that was written six years ago, keeping pace with technology and graphics takes longer. The art assets alone can take anywhere from four to six times longer depending on how experienced the artists and designers are. Developers either have to cut back on content, higher more people or extend development times. Cutting back on content, regardless of whether that content is simply more "stuff" in the world or interesting game systems is going to make a game less appealing.

It's also true that developers want the audience for their games to be as large as possible. Not just because they spend so much on developing games, but because they want their games to be popular and well received. This is going to contribute to making the game with higher end graphics and more of a marketing budget, increasing the cost of the game.

I think the least likely source of increased cost is the theme park or sandbox game systems. Several very small theme parks have been built, successfully, with very small budgets. Gods and Heroes was a fairly well done theme park MMORPG with some unique features and it was squarely in the theme park venue, but also on a small budget. It was too little, too late so it never really took off, but the game was indeed developed at least as well as Mortal Online or Xyson, both of which are squarely in the sandbox side of the spectrum between theme park and sandbox. There are probably half a dozen other little theme ark games that were developed just fine on the minimum MMORPG budget. In addition to this, all video games have gotten more expensive, not just MMORPGs. It doesn't seem likely that the games being either a theme park or sandbox is the major, contributing factor.

There are probably other things relevant to costs of development, but they'd probably fall under poor decision making on the part of the development company, rather than things directly involved in the development itself.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

9/16/13 11:50:51 PM#147

The assumption here I am seeing is that developers make games easy to draw a large audience. Obviously it is important to make a game accessible, but I don't think that has to follow easy/simple.

I think that is the mistake being made. A good game can have depth, still be accessible and have a challenging environment. Its all about presentation and increasing difficulty on a curve. The curve is gone it feels like. NWN, GW2 and FF14 all felt as easy at level 40+ as at 20.

I'd further assert that there is a large enough gamer pool with sufficient experience and intelligence to enjoy a challenging game if it offers appealing mechanics, good animations and other traits that larger groups of people enjoy.

I've seen a discussion on player input a lot here too and I agree with those that want developers to accept some input/feedback, but maintain the vision they have. I think developers are trying to appeal to everyone for everything, and as a result its too much to grab for on release; and many features are half-assed and the games generally appeal to little to too few.

Can anyone point to a specific game that upon release was classified/reviewed in general as too complex, too deep and too challenging  but was otherwise considered great? 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4758

9/17/13 12:25:54 AM#148
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

In other words, players want a good MMO, developers cant seem to deliver one.

That's wrong, there are more people playing MMOs today than at any other time in the history of the genre.  Developers are doing just fine.  The problem is that *YOU* want a game that is niche and developers don't pay attention to the kind of game you want because it doesn't make them nearly enough money.

The problem isn't the developers.  The problem is your tastes.

More people playing doesn't mean better games. In fact holding most things constant I would say it usually means a worse game. Worse as in less targeted, more mainstream, etc. Just like with music, tv, movies, etc, you can either appeal to a specific group of people on a deep level, or appeal to the masses on a more shallow level.

He's not even responding to my post within the context of my previous posts. But whatever.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  IsilithTehroth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 142

9/17/13 2:25:46 AM#149
Originally posted by Gdemami

[quote]Originally posted by ray12k[/b][/b]

SWTOR last report was 500k subs + millions in F2P players. GW2 was fastest selling MMO in west. Easy to make up for WoW lost subs.

Bullshit. Swtor might have had 500k subs at launch and the f2p models combined. If anything a game going F2P signifies it has failed.

MurderHerd

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5542

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/17/13 2:27:09 AM#150

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Holophonist

 

But I think that's backwards.  It's not that developers are spending so much money on their games that it requires a massive audience to pay for it all, developers want the maximum number of people to play, therefore they are spending a lot of money in development costs to make it as appealing to the largest group of people possible.  It costs more to make games that are that inclusive because the developers have to do what their investors tell them to:  make games that make the biggest possible return on investment.

You're looking at it backwards.

Mmmm I think you're confused. That's exactly what I'm saying. They're specifically trying to appeal to more people. The point others have tried to make is that production costs got so high that they simply had to appeal to more people, thus you have the watered down gameplay of themeparks. I'm saying they wanted to appeal to more people (thanks WoW) and then came the increase in aesthetics and streamlining etc.

Enough with platitudes. What does "watered down" gameplay mean exactly? To what are you comparing them?

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

That's wrong, there are more people playing MMOs today than at any other time in the history of the genre.  Developers are doing just fine.  The problem is that *YOU* want a game that is niche and developers don't pay attention to the kind of game you want because it doesn't make them nearly enough money.

The problem isn't the developers.  The problem is your tastes.

More people playing doesn't mean better games. In fact holding most things constant I would say it usually means a worse game. Worse as in less targeted, more mainstream, etc. Just like with music, tv, movies, etc, you can either appeal to a specific group of people on a deep level, or appeal to the masses on a more shallow level.

Worse games... But you're not the judge of what is a good game or a bad game. And there is no rule that more people playing means worse games. How do you know they're not simply hitting a larger niche on "a deep level" and not several on a "more shallow level"?

 

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5247

9/17/13 2:33:40 AM#151
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by ThomasN7
Originally posted by rbialo

You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.

AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever.
Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago.
I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".

Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.

P.S.
If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.

How is that fail ?  I bet the majority would agree it has been WoW or bust. Can the genre be great again ? Sure it can but not the path they have chosen. 

Why? Because players like you don't like it? There are more people in the world than so-called 'hardcore' players, many more. This is the truth of it. A game will NEVER make money based on 'hardcore' players. You need to bring new players into the game and MMO's in general. If you don't do that - the industry will die.

I want to question some assumptions you seem to have made here and point out the conclusion you do not seem to have reached. You do not need to bring more players into gaming or MMO's, the player base does not need to expand. Gaming companies made money from UO and EQ back in the day, the size of the player base then was fine. The gaming industries search for an ever wider player base is about making more and more money not ensuring it does not die.

You mention hardcore players. There were more gamers in the world than the roleplayers and RPG fans who were the first to adopt MMO's. There are more gamers in the world than hardcore gaming fans. But what you don't seem to realise is that there are more people in the world than gamers. And this is the new 'player' base via social media that is being reached out to.

Each time the nature of the player base has changed its ethos has got more removed from core gaming values. Roleplaying has all but been dumped, RPG has been taken out of MMORPG. The EzMMO rules and easymode is king in solo games too. Once again we face a tipping point, this time the values of people on Facebook and Twitter will decide what the values of gamers are going to become.

People with a gaming background no greater than the likes of Farmville will decide the future of gaming as they will become the majority. The baulk of the player base we have with us today I would describe as gamers, no matter what type of gaming they favour. In ten years time I do not think that will be the case.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1775

9/17/13 2:50:51 AM#152
Originally posted by rbialo

You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.

AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever.
Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago.
I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".

Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.

P.S.
If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.

Agree fully with you (but also partially with OP), would just like to add that many of this games were "failures" in RELATION to wow only. If one expect to have at least 6 millions of subs, that is silly, will be always failure. We know will not gona happen. Aoc is stil around, War, Aion, Tsw, Swtor ... many of them for years, so they are NOT failures. They are not making big money like wow but nobody should expect this. But they earn enough to stay and give many many players a lot of fun.

Main problem nowadays are actually PEOPLE that expect from every new game to be "wow killer" instead having fun with game ITSELF without comparing.

Not even Blizzard I guess could repeat success with wow. Hoever, they are fast to adapt. After Cata changes was sure will never return to end game, now I'm playing a lot because of scenarios. Zero wait time for dps, fun enough, fast run, ... returned also to 5 man, while raids are too much time consuming for my time schedule. To me wow feels fresh like at start (actually started with BC, because at start cartoony graphics looked childish, before discovering, that wow is great because of other things while cartoony graphics are actually great, love them and hope they stay as they are maybe with only small retouches).

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

9/17/13 2:55:30 AM#153
Originally posted by ThomasN7

 

Since vanilla WoW there hasn't been a mmo that has captured the hearts of gamers. Lotro, Aion, Age of Conan, The Secret World, Warhammer Online, Defiance, Rift, Free Realms, GW2, The Old Republic , Tera and I'm probably missing a few but feel free to add on to some more mmo failures.

Feel free to add that it's just your opinion, lots of MMOs are doing good, in your eyes they are failures because YOU didn't like them and it didn't look like World of Warcraft.

Which is the most dumbed down arcade mmo in gaming history, back then it required no brains to play it, and it certainly doesn't now. If you think Vanilla required brains, omg I feel sorry. Spoonfed leveling to level 60 and from there on it was cookie cutter raiding with 40 lol.

Anyone with a bit of a brain figured out how to work those raids in a instant.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5542

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/17/13 2:58:04 AM#154
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by ThomasN7
Originally posted by rbialo

You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.

AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever.
Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago.
I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".

Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.

P.S.
If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.

How is that fail ?  I bet the majority would agree it has been WoW or bust. Can the genre be great again ? Sure it can but not the path they have chosen. 

Why? Because players like you don't like it? There are more people in the world than so-called 'hardcore' players, many more. This is the truth of it. A game will NEVER make money based on 'hardcore' players. You need to bring new players into the game and MMO's in general. If you don't do that - the industry will die.

I want to question some assumptions you seem to have made here and point out the conclusion you do not seem to have reached. You do not need to bring more players into gaming or MMO's, the player base does not need to expand. Gaming companies made money from UO and EQ back in the day, the size of the player base then was fine. The gaming industries search for an ever wider player base is about making more and more money not ensuring it does not die.

You mention hardcore players. There were more gamers in the world than the roleplayers and RPG fans who were the first to adopt MMO's. There are more gamers in the world than hardcore gaming fans. But what you don't seem to realise is that there are more people in the world than gamers. And this is the new 'player' base via social media that is being reached out to.

Each time the nature of the player base has changed its ethos has got more removed from core gaming values. Roleplaying has all but been dumped, RPG has been taken out of MMORPG. The EzMMO rules and easymode is king in solo games too. Once again we face a tipping point, this time the values of people on Facebook and Twitter will decide what the values of gamers are going to become.

People with a gaming background no greater than the likes of Farmville will decide the future of gaming as they will become the majority. The baulk of the player base we have with us today I would describe as gamers, no matter what type of gaming they favour. In ten years time I do not think that will be the case.

I thought the change preceded the boom of social media. Things were already moving in that direction. I think you are constructing your own devil from the social media types. There was never much RP in the first place and I don't think they need to be catered to specifically. I've seen people RP in a myriad of games. They don't much care if the game is largely instanced or no, sandbox or themepark, FPS/TPS or isometric.

What I would guess they want, is seclusion. Seclusion from the people who do not RP. Because the greatest enemy of immersion is other players.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5247

9/17/13 6:21:59 AM#155
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by ThomasN7
Originally posted by rbialo

You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.

AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever.
Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago.
I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".

Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.

P.S.
If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.

How is that fail ?  I bet the majority would agree it has been WoW or bust. Can the genre be great again ? Sure it can but not the path they have chosen. 

Why? Because players like you don't like it? There are more people in the world than so-called 'hardcore' players, many more. This is the truth of it. A game will NEVER make money based on 'hardcore' players. You need to bring new players into the game and MMO's in general. If you don't do that - the industry will die.

I want to question some assumptions you seem to have made here and point out the conclusion you do not seem to have reached. You do not need to bring more players into gaming or MMO's, the player base does not need to expand. Gaming companies made money from UO and EQ back in the day, the size of the player base then was fine. The gaming industries search for an ever wider player base is about making more and more money not ensuring it does not die.

You mention hardcore players. There were more gamers in the world than the roleplayers and RPG fans who were the first to adopt MMO's. There are more gamers in the world than hardcore gaming fans. But what you don't seem to realise is that there are more people in the world than gamers. And this is the new 'player' base via social media that is being reached out to.

Each time the nature of the player base has changed its ethos has got more removed from core gaming values. Roleplaying has all but been dumped, RPG has been taken out of MMORPG. The EzMMO rules and easymode is king in solo games too. Once again we face a tipping point, this time the values of people on Facebook and Twitter will decide what the values of gamers are going to become.

People with a gaming background no greater than the likes of Farmville will decide the future of gaming as they will become the majority. The baulk of the player base we have with us today I would describe as gamers, no matter what type of gaming they favour. In ten years time I do not think that will be the case.

I thought the change preceded the boom of social media. Things were already moving in that direction. I think you are constructing your own devil from the social media types. There was never much RP in the first place and I don't think they need to be catered to specifically. I've seen people RP in a myriad of games. They don't much care if the game is largely instanced or no, sandbox or themepark, FPS/TPS or isometric.

What I would guess they want, is seclusion. Seclusion from the people who do not RP. Because the greatest enemy of immersion is other players.

 

I am not sure how that change could have preceded social media, how were they reaching out to non gamers? Advertising? It is the advent of social media, which has allowed gaming companies to reach out to them. First they reached out to gamers on the social media sites, now they are reaching out to anyone who has played anything, be it Angry Birds or Farmville.

The people I am supposed to be making a devil of are just like you and me, but they are not gamers. That's the issue here, not what social media types are like.

What roleplayers have lost is roleplaying tools. Which can be everything from languages that were race specific that you could learn, to books you could write in that others could read, to guild HQ's. That is how they were catered for.

I think roleplayers fit better in large worlds but as you say sandbox or themepark does not make much difference. I do think they prefer RPG over FPS/TPS ((strangely enough :) )). But as you say top notch graphics with an over the shoulder avatar is not needed, many of them started in MUD's after all.

As to seclusion, yes and no. If you want roleplaying where you can bump into players and just roleplay then a separate server is needed. We still have those but they always had a problem with players joining who had no intention of roleplaying. Nowadays you can assume anyone you meet is most likely not to a roleplayer. But if you intend to roleplay with your guild and like minded guilds, having players around that don't roleplay is not much of an issue.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

9/17/13 7:38:18 AM#156
Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Holophonist

 

But I think that's backwards.  It's not that developers are spending so much money on their games that it requires a massive audience to pay for it all, developers want the maximum number of people to play, therefore they are spending a lot of money in development costs to make it as appealing to the largest group of people possible.  It costs more to make games that are that inclusive because the developers have to do what their investors tell them to:  make games that make the biggest possible return on investment.

You're looking at it backwards.

Mmmm I think you're confused. That's exactly what I'm saying. They're specifically trying to appeal to more people. The point others have tried to make is that production costs got so high that they simply had to appeal to more people, thus you have the watered down gameplay of themeparks. I'm saying they wanted to appeal to more people (thanks WoW) and then came the increase in aesthetics and streamlining etc.

Enough with platitudes. What does "watered down" gameplay mean exactly? To what are you comparing them?

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

That's wrong, there are more people playing MMOs today than at any other time in the history of the genre.  Developers are doing just fine.  The problem is that *YOU* want a game that is niche and developers don't pay attention to the kind of game you want because it doesn't make them nearly enough money.

The problem isn't the developers.  The problem is your tastes.

More people playing doesn't mean better games. In fact holding most things constant I would say it usually means a worse game. Worse as in less targeted, more mainstream, etc. Just like with music, tv, movies, etc, you can either appeal to a specific group of people on a deep level, or appeal to the masses on a more shallow level.

Worse games... But you're not the judge of what is a good game or a bad game. And there is no rule that more people playing means worse games. How do you know they're not simply hitting a larger niche on "a deep level" and not several on a "more shallow level"?

I've explained it like a million times but whatever. People have different preferences. So to appeal more deeply to one person, you're alienating somebody else. Somebody's "perfect" game is going to be one that is completely 100% tailored to all of their preferences, but it obviously wouldn't be economically viable to build a game for one person. So the question is, are modern MMOs targeting as much as they can? Or are they delivering watered down games to make more money? I think it's pretty obvious that the genre was heavily influenced by WoW's success, and the genre has moved away from targeted games and more towards watered down games.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1459

9/17/13 7:44:02 AM#157
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ThomasN7
 

How is that fail ? 

You didn't lose a lot of xp at death, you didn't drop items or have your body looted, leveling was fast compared to other games that came before (in Lineage 2 it took me 2 weeks i extremely hardcore playing just to get to level 20. And that was all grind).

Losing exp on death is just shitty design, enforcing artificial grind, so is full loot imho. Those things doesn't add any challenge what so ever, only force you waste more time to recover, making you spend time catching up to where you were instead of, you know, enjoying progression. 

I am not saying games should be easy, there should be certain punishment to dying, but exp and full loot loss is overkill. The challenge should be in advancing your character and the content, not in catching up to where you were a week ago. Vanilla WoW, imho, hit the sweetspot of the challenge. 

You could advance your character relatively easy in terms of level and basic gear, so you could enjoy the basic content of the game. But if you wanted to advance beyond that, game required dedication. Raiding wasn't easy (How many guilds cleared AQ40 and BWL prior to expansion patch?), nor were the preparations for it. The world has loads of secrets waiting on an explorer to discover, such as combat food in Felwood, firepots in Arathi, or the arena trinket in STV. There were stuff to explore and grind for one who wanted to further push his characters.

Nowadays, all the progression is served to you on a silver plate, it is either dungeons and raids, or factions. There is very little to discover that requires you to take a side step from the main path. That's the feeling I miss. 

  User Deleted
9/17/13 7:58:03 AM#158
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Holophonist

Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.

 

Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.

Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.

Do I really need to continue?

No, but I will.

Less than a million with too much time on their hands. I suspect it's the same number of people today who want that old time-sucking gameplay back.

Take the casual crowd out of the equation and it's starting to look like the "true" (as they like to call themselves) MMO gamer population hasn't grown at all in 14 years.

Gee, maybe that's why smart game developers don't make those types of games any longer. No market for it.

Well, maybe there is a market for it...DFUW, MO...wait, nevermind.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

9/17/13 8:32:14 AM#159
Originally posted by grimgryphon
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Holophonist

Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.

 

Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.

Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.

Do I really need to continue?

No, but I will.

Less than a million with too much time on their hands. I suspect it's the same number of people today who want that old time-sucking gameplay back.

Take the casual crowd out of the equation and it's starting to look like the "true" (as they like to call themselves) MMO gamer population hasn't grown at all in 14 years.

Gee, maybe that's why smart game developers don't make those types of games any longer. No market for it.

Well, maybe there is a market for it...DFUW, MO...wait, nevermind.

 

I think you're confusing "too much time on their hands" with having an attention span. The real difference in game type is how long you play that game on a macro scale. Ie do you quit after a few weeks like narius? Seems to me that games like WoW and other carrot-on-a-stick grindfests can cause people to spend just as much time PER day as other, more long-term games.

Tldr: playing 12 different games in a year, each for a month, doesn't mean you have any less time on your hands than somebody who plays 1 game for the whole year.
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/17/13 8:39:30 AM#160
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
I think you're confusing "too much time on their hands" with having an attention span.

Having to grind the same mobs in a group for weeks just to gain one level has nothing to do with having an attention span either. It's more about having a high tolerance for boredom, and also being addicted to the point that the carrot (next level) matters more than your own enjoyment.

Such people exist. There are guys who tightened the same screw all their life in the Ford assembly lines. But at least they were paid for it... in MMORPGs, it's the opposite, some people are willing to pay to do a tedious repetitive task. That never ceases to amaze me.

My computer is better than yours.

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