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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn: The FFXIV Economy Issue

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48 posts found
  derek39

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/06
Posts: 126

i <3 MMO's

9/12/13 3:11:42 PM#21
I agree with JenoKane, I feel like they did this on purpose to really fine tune a deflated economy rather that having to go through an overhaul with an inflated economy. Something that Diablo 3 is struggling with and many others HAVE struggled with.

I don't believe that this wasn't intentional. It has to one of the smartest moves made by an MMO team. This allows them to slowly get a groove of just how many players they need to support and then get into a position where they can easily scale gil fountains up and down depending on player count.

Can't wait to see how they help us level 50s earn gil. If its in the form of dailies, I hope theres a twist to it. something like a hunting log daily would be nice. but they have to make up for teleport costs if they go that route.

Monster Hunter Veteran since '04

  Hyanmen

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 5034

9/12/13 3:34:13 PM#22

I don't see what the issue is?

It may become an issue in the future if SE sits on their hands and does nothing. Which, at the time of posting this article is not even true anymore as the dev team lowered the cost of repairs and dark matters.

In other words there is no issue at all in the FFXIV:ARR of today. There are simply economic forces at play and SE's hand to stabilize said forces through whatever means necessary at any given point in time.

At this moment SE is keeping the influx of gil entering the economy at level cap low because the amount of money coming into the economy through players leveling their classes would cause massive inflation otherwise.. When this is no longer true in some other point in time SE will implement other measures to counter whatever economic shifts there may be.

Pointless article, just like the forum topics about the """"issue""""

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

9/12/13 3:54:06 PM#23
The real "dailies" in this game is the Grand Company daily quests for craft classes and botanist classes. Resets every 24 hours if I remember correctly; rewards Grand Company currency and exp  to the correct class.
 
 
As other pointed out: this patch reduced the repair costs by a hell lot! The repair cost  went from 350 gil to 80 gil lol.
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2651

9/12/13 3:56:00 PM#24

Just wanted to point out that there is a huge gaping hole in your article. There is no set amount of Gil shared between all players that is being eaten up. The only way that would be true was if the ONLY method of earning gil was quests and leves. But that isnt the case. People are constantly bringing in money from fates and dungeons as well. No, theyre not huge chunks for each individual fate or dungeon, but it quickly adds up over the course of doing several fates or dungeons.

Manage your Gil wisely and theres no reason to not always have the Gil you need for whatever you want. Take the couple of minutes it will take to ride your chocobo somewhere rather than teleporting if you're hurting for money. Dont blow your Gil on buying items from the market which are 5-10x what they should realistically be priced at based on the materials required and difficulty to make. If you're dying so much that you need to constantly repair your gear so often that you're broke from it... stop sucking.

The only time I've been hurting for gil was when I spent several days doing pretty much nothing but crafting, leveling all of the crafting skills, and buying the mats rather than just gathering them myself. If you're actively going out and doing quests, fates, dungeons, and leves you'll be fine.

  Reklaw

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

9/12/13 4:10:18 PM#25

I will read this article again in about 3 to 6 months from now. Reason is I can never judge an ingame economy this short after release of the game. I do understand the concerns but it's to early to tell if they really matter at this time.

 

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1441

9/12/13 4:58:07 PM#26
I don't play the game, so mobs don't drop Gil at all?
  VikingGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/08/10
Posts: 1275

The strong are sometimes wrong but the weak are never free.

9/12/13 4:59:03 PM#27
With last night's update they did reduce the cost of repairs significantly. This looks like it will make running dungeons, fates, guildhests and battle leves a way to make money though it will be rather slow. I think this will tip the economy in the right direction though it would be nice to have a few other ways to make gil. Over all right now we will still need to be careful about spending on luxuries like teleports.

All die, so die well.
Join SOLA in ArcheAge.

  User Deleted
9/12/13 6:56:46 PM#28

I disagree with details in the article specifically in terms of what we are calling gold sinks here. IMO a gold sink is a part of the game that requires you to put money in without getting anything of real value in return.


Teleports are NOT gold sinks because you are paying for a service. The value there is saving the time you would of had to travel and I find it appropriately priced. People shouldn't feel entitled to this mode of transportation without having to pay a hefty price. Chocobo porters aren't either and I actually use them quite efficiently to not teleport. They are so cheap the actual "sink" is negligible compared to the time saved at like 1/10th of the price of teleporting or longer for a 1-3 extra minutes of your time.


I also don't think if you as a group fail enough times in a dungeon, that you should be rewarded. This adds to the challenge of the game and places more value upon living and makes the game more exciting in that sense knowing that you actually have something to lose.


A 3rd point I want to make is that I think the big issue with the economy and the players , more specifically the ones that already hit max level, rushed to the end using FATEs. I believe the exp is too large but the expense is at not producing any gil. I have no problem personally on gil since I take my time, do all the quests just to experience the game, but I'm also equally rewarded for my time in exp and money compared to the exp rush of FATE where time is saved for exp only at the expense of not producing gil.


If a player is going to be allowed to maximize on a single part of the rewards system, they can't complain about not having the other resource when it starts to matter. They should of considered their choices harder or learn a bit about money management as they teleported to every place and focused only on one activity that didn't pay gil before making these decisions. This is the price at winning one part of the game, they essentially lose at the other parts of the game that they purposefully ignored.


Just because you are maximum level doesn't mean you are entitled to have an equivalent in resource, the players that lack in resources, IMO, represent their personal choices and strategies better in this MMO than many others where bad choices aren't penalized nearly as much. I welcome it personally and hope FFXIV doesn't plan on deviating too much from its course in regards to its economy.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

9/12/13 7:34:29 PM#29
What's the end game ? Just make sure that has a decent fountain.


  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6836

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

9/12/13 10:07:39 PM#30

I am not playing right now ,so i cannot accurately talk about it but on paper,it sounds exactly like FFXI's economy.

You could walk in and spend a year playing and still not see or understand the entire economy design and how it works.

Square has found that for whatever reason via FFXI,there will end up being far too much game currency,so needed ways to filter it out of the system.It pretty much is RMT that causes it,i see it in all games and how pricing gets out of hand.

They also intend players to EARN things in game,if currency is too simple to get,players can freely do whatever they want feeling like nothing is actually earned.Just look at the Chocobo idea,they do not simply hand it over,you have to earn it,that is their game design philosophy.

I think it would be wise to take a long hard look at the economy design after about 4-6 months,i highly doubt people are seeing the whole picture.Like i said Square DOES tend to find ways to filter gil out,so there should be no surprise and it still works.They do not like vendor trash and easy currency designs,again should be no surprise,FACT is it all works if no RMT or any outside interference.

Who knows perhaps they have a bigger plan for gil involved in future updates/xpacs ,such as housing or any other idea.As already mentioned by others,they are also trying to keep players from abusing the free ride system of warping,especially since you get a rested state if warping back to rest in sanctuary areas.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5939

9/12/13 10:17:08 PM#31
Originally posted by Jairoe03

I disagree with details in the article specifically in terms of what we are calling gold sinks here. IMO a gold sink is a part of the game that requires you to put money in without getting anything of real value in return.

The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.

Vendor purchases, broker/AH fees, transportation fees, repair costs, and anything else in the game that removes, not transfers, the gold is a sink. Being able to recoup that costs doesn't count unless that actually generates new gold (vendoring to an NPC). If it is player purchased then that is a transfer, while your initial cost was the sink.

Any activity, no matter what, that creates clean fresh digital gold out of bits is a gold fountain.

So on your list anything that permanently removes gold from the game is a sink whether you want it to be or not. Anything that doesn't is not a sink.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Soulrift

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/04
Posts: 29

9/12/13 10:29:13 PM#32
One important consideration is that they tuned the same economy for both legacy and non-legacy players. They may have anticipated that v2.0 would be populated primarily (or at least significantly) by legacy players, those carrying forward millions of gil from before the Calamity. It could be that the economy was designed to strip away some of that excess carry-over gil and inadvertently created an intractable gil problem for servers where that supply did not exist.
  User Deleted
9/13/13 12:25:49 AM#33


Originally posted by Torvaldr
The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.

Vendor purchases, broker/AH fees, transportation fees, repair costs, and anything else in the game that removes, not transfers, the gold is a sink. Being able to recoup that costs doesn't count unless that actually generates new gold (vendoring to an NPC). If it is player purchased then that is a transfer, while your initial cost was the sink.

Any activity, no matter what, that creates clean fresh digital gold out of bits is a gold fountain.

So on your list anything that permanently removes gold from the game is a sink whether you want it to be or not. Anything that doesn't is not a sink.



You are actually wrong but I already explained my case. Quite obviously gold sink is up for debate if at least one person disagrees in its usage. I'm sorry but just because you state that it isn't and fail to see the other person's reasoning doesn't make you any more right especially when you do not even directly dispute the claim.


Simply if you are trying to excuse players' poor decisions and rightfully trying to justify that there's a real issue with the economy, then IMO you would have to try better than that. See in actual gold sinks, you literally spend money out of necessity to retain what you currently had i.e. access to current equipment. Repairing doesn't give you anything extra that you had, it represents trying to make up for a loss that occurred.


When you pay for a teleport, the player is actually gaining something, hence its a service being paid for. They don't HAVE to teleport to be able to continue with the game (unlike repair costs). Teleport isn't a result of a loss of anything, the player is merely trying to save time. If you spend money and gain something out of it, its NOT a sink period especially when it isn't a requirement to continue on with the game under regular circumstances.

  zaylin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 793

9/13/13 12:25:58 AM#34
no matter how well a system is done, once its in players hands, you cant controll the beast. if you did you would just restirct freedom of play/spending etc
  ReesRacer

Novice Member

Joined: 2/18/11
Posts: 155

9/13/13 12:39:30 AM#35

at level 25-30 in 2 classes and b/w 12-20 in 2 others, i have manged to maintain ~20k gil for the last several days. for "average" players with moderately low repair costs and occasional transportation fees, this seems very reasonable. 

the players that have been most heavily penalised are those that hit the cap in a week and faced enormous repair bills that they were not prepared to pay because they had not done any other activities in the meantime, and/or spent gil indiscriminately in the rush to level. certainly the repair cost patch was needed, but i think SE might have known how to best manipulate the economy long-term...we will see. :)

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5451

9/13/13 12:58:02 AM#36
Originally posted by Jairoe03

 


Originally posted by Torvaldr
The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.

 

Vendor purchases, broker/AH fees, transportation fees, repair costs, and anything else in the game that removes, not transfers, the gold is a sink. Being able to recoup that costs doesn't count unless that actually generates new gold (vendoring to an NPC). If it is player purchased then that is a transfer, while your initial cost was the sink.

Any activity, no matter what, that creates clean fresh digital gold out of bits is a gold fountain.

So on your list anything that permanently removes gold from the game is a sink whether you want it to be or not. Anything that doesn't is not a sink.


 


You are actually wrong but I already explained my case. Quite obviously gold sink is up for debate if at least one person disagrees in its usage. I'm sorry but just because you state that it isn't and fail to see the other person's reasoning doesn't make you any more right especially when you do not even directly dispute the claim.

Actually, he is exactly correct. In fact, when I read your response I was going to respond with the same thing, but he did it for me. ;)

Value is irrelevant. The cost is established by designers for the purpose of removing Gil from the economy in order to curb inflation. Otherwise, other mechanics (such as the Return ability's 15 minute cooldown) would be used. This is just MMO game design 101 sort of stuff.

You can read more here.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  User Deleted
9/13/13 1:28:32 AM#37


Originally posted by MikeB
Actually, he is exactly correct. In fact, when I read your response I was going to respond with the same thing, but he did it for me. ;)

Value is irrelevant. The cost is established by designers for the purpose of removing Gil from the economy in order to curb inflation. Otherwise, other mechanics (such as the Return ability's 15 minute cooldown) would be used. This is just MMO game design 101 sort of stuff.

You can read more here.


Well, I'll stand corrected on one note that it is removing currency from a pool and it does affect the value of money.


What I will disagree with is including it as part of the problem within FFXIV's economy and I want to be able to make that distinction and point out that parts of these economy issues are its players' own doing. When I see a player rush to level 50 via FATE's and abuse the teleport system, I believe it should come with a price and thats my theory on what's occurring and where the bulk of these complaints are coming from.


So, maybe I was quick to jump the gun on quickly labeling something but the way I saw it at the time was that you are paying for a service (maybe the money should go find its way back into the pool via increased quest rewards or something) and the analogy was there in comparison to the real world. And I still stand by my point that players' should accept some responsibility for the in-game economy.


Maybe I was quick to point out teleport in such a fashion because it was labeled as part of the problem and the article did little to look at the other side and to remind readers on how much of a choice that really is, which IMO, is one of the biggest sinks that players willingly spend into without thinking too much on the impact to their wallet and the economy.

  SpottyGekko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

9/13/13 6:46:58 AM#38

It's only 14 days after launch and some people are already predicting economic collapse if nothing changes.

 

They are realising that if they continue to play the game they way they have been playing it, that they will run out of cash. This is not a problem with the way they have been playing, of course, but a problem with the game design ?

 

Some other players are saying that the way that they are playing, there's no gil shortage problem. They maintain that the game design is quite clever and relies on integrating many different activities.

 

I'm inclined to believe the second theory. However, if a significant part of the playerbase only wants to race to level-cap and then raid all day, that could pose a problem for SE. They will be faced with the option to either change the game or lose a certain part of the playerbase. The outcome will be interesting to watch...

 

  Anthur

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 628

9/13/13 6:53:02 AM#39

There is no issue. The only issue I currently see is mmorpg.com and that every column/review etc about FFXIV is negative.

Starting from the still not updated review score 3 weeks after early access (is it really hard to do that ?), over their event criticism and now this economy column. Probably missed some others.

Sorry, but is mmorpg.com on a crusade against FFXIV ? The game might not be the greatest MMO in history and not really revolutionary but really, it's not the MMO devil either.

On the other side mmorpg.com praises a game like EQN which is not even in an alpha state yet to no end. Without having any realy facts to base this on.

I am very disappointed and on the edge on saying goodbye to this site.

  Hyanmen

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 5034

9/13/13 6:56:03 AM#40
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

It's only 14 days after launch and some people are already predicting economic collapse if nothing changes.

They are realising that if they continue to play the game they way they have been playing it, that they will run out of cash. This is not a problem with the way they have been playing, of course, but a problem with the game design ?

Some other players are saying that the way that they are playing, there's no gil shortage problem. They maintain that the game design is quite clever and relies on integrating many different activities.

I'm inclined to believe the second theory. However, if a significant part of the playerbase only wants to race to level-cap and then raid all day, that could pose a problem for SE. They will be faced with the option to either change the game or lose a certain part of the playerbase. The outcome will be interesting to watch...

Exactly.

The real issue here is not that there is no way to make money in this game at any given level range.

The real issue is that people don't want to do these activities, and would rather only spam the content that gives them epic lootz until they get what they want or can no longer do so due to time restrictions.

In their minds no such thing as "raid preparation" exists.

Which is too bad, because in SE's game design it most certainly does.

 

Personally I am ecstatic about the fact that money means something in this game. It is not in the backburner like in every other MMO out there. You have to do many different activities to be self-sustaining. I am ecstatic because it makes professions like crafting and gathering infinitely more interesting. Say, gathering from a gameplay perspective is nothing to write home about. It is rather grindy. What makes it interesting is playing with the economy, realizing where money making possibilities are and taking advantage of them. That's what makes gathering interesting, not the actual gameplay of pressing buttons. Getting the confirmation that my stuff has sold on the AH, accumulating my wealth and making me richer than I was before, is an amazing feeling. Very addictive. I don't get similar enjoyment out of other MMO's. Period.

I understand that not everyone likes this, and that is completely fine. But to state that something is *wrong* with the game's *design* when it makes you do these things is complete nonsense.

The fact is that SE can not win here. They can cave in to the people who demand they get to do whatever they want without any thought into how they will finance said activity in which case they will lose me as a player (because that battle classes don't take part in the economy is a complete turn-off). Now if they keep things as they are and the people bothered by it refuse to adapt, SE will lose them.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

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