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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Terry Michaels: "Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game."

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44 posts found
  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 554

 
OP  9/12/13 7:43:53 PM#1

If so, will they have instancing-like abilities (ex, temp domes that prevent people from entering/exiting where they are fighting) that prevent more pc’s from showing up and always causing the mobs to run?

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind.

 

http://eqn.junkiesnation.com/2013/09/10/storybricks-and-soe-answer-some-questions/

 

I can't help but wonder if this extends into the PVP context...  teeheehee...  open-world PVP with a life of consequence, please.

 

 

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2293

World > Quest Progression

9/12/13 8:03:18 PM#2
Sounds great for PvP servers hehe. IMO he was referring to making the interaction with mobs as natural as possible and not making a complicated situation more complicated. If a bulk of people show up then hopefully someone has some CC off CD :)

I think this goes back to the quote by Jeff about how there will be many ways to grief people. They will set realistic mechanics in place and let the cards fall.
  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 554

 
OP  9/12/13 10:02:02 PM#3
Originally posted by Aelious
Sounds great for PvP servers hehe. IMO he was referring to making the interaction with mobs as natural as possible and not making a complicated situation more complicated. If a bulk of people show up then hopefully someone has some CC off CD :)

I think this goes back to the quote by Jeff about how there will be many ways to grief people. They will set realistic mechanics in place and let the cards fall.

I'm hoping it refers to the whole game, and not just a narrow context. That fits my definition of "sandbox"...  no artificial limits or mechanisms to enforce them. That means the game isn't preventing you from attacking other players with some invisible wall. BUT, like you said, there do need to be mechanisms to limit griefing..  hopefully something more organic. That's where I see "a life of consequence" fitting in with the server remembering everything you do and penalizing you for being a jerk.

 

 

  Crazy_Stick

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 1072

9/12/13 10:56:40 PM#4
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.
  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/12/13 11:04:16 PM#5

The answer that Terry gave means absolutely nothing at this point.  Until they tell us the parts they are holding back. 

As far as the PVP vs PVE argument; it has been beat dead here on the Forums.  The PVE crowd are all in support of different rule-set servers including PVP dedicated servers.  The PVP crowd outright rejects that option for various reasons. 

  Drakephire

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 352

9/12/13 11:32:02 PM#6

One has to define 'artificial limits'. If your characters live in a world where gods are present and actively meddle in the affairs of mortals, then I can envision a system in which a god might punish a player character for actions within the game (ie, griefing, ganking, etc). Perhaps there are holy sites where a deity will smite opponents who enter...

Are these examples of 'artificial limits'? Or are they part of the game play?

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

9/12/13 11:39:31 PM#7

Seems like more reaching on the OPs part because he wants EQN to be 100% OW non-consensual PvP.

Once more the statement could be applied to many things

There is a roundtable question that also might relate to PvP

https://www.everquestnext.com/round-table?poll=contested-content

That would seem to indicate that PvP may be limited to contested areas but also may have nothing to do with PvP theoretically.

  muffins89

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1253

9/13/13 12:04:08 AM#8

how did an article about npc's reactions to pc's get turned into a pvp discussion? 

 

Terry Michaels: "Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game."

 

he's saying they are designing the AI to react to the players.  they are not setting limits on how many players it will take to kill certain mobs,  because the mobs are going to react to how they are being engaged. 

 

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2599

9/13/13 12:11:12 AM#9
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

Open PvP has never been the downfall of a game that was designed for it from the start. The poor design choices and shitty development / coding of PvP games has been their downfall. The only cases that have been made are a) Lots of people want a highly polished & well designed PvE themepark game b) People do not want a poorly designed broken piece of crap for a PvP "sandbox" game *coughdarkfall&mortalcough*.

We have yet to see a well funded & highly polished game resembling anything close to a sandbox with any sort of focus on PvP rather than just being tacked on half-assed PvP. The closest were games like UO and SWG, which for their time were amazing games... then they were changed. But just as the PvE market has grown since then, the PvP market has too. The void left by games like UO and SWG have not been filled by any newer games. Some have attempted, but failed horribly due to low budgets and inexperienced programmers and poor design choices. There is still a huge void waiting to be filled by an actual quality PvP game, rather than forcing PvPers to either choose between a bad game or a good game with only tacked on PvP.

If EQ Next does open PvP right, along with the rest of the game, it will only make it more succesfull.

BTW if they make it open PvP, PvPers are obviously their target audience. Being a PvE player and wishing a PvP game was a PvE game doesn't make you their target audience.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

9/13/13 12:18:40 AM#10
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

Open PvP has never been the downfall of a game that was designed for it from the start. The poor design choices and shitty development / coding of PvP games has been their downfall. The only cases that have been made are a) Lots of people want a highly polished & well designed PvE themepark game b) People do not want a poorly designed broken piece of crap for a PvP "sandbox" game *coughdarkfall&mortalcough*.

We have yet to see a well funded & highly polished game resembling anything close to a sandbox with any sort of focus on PvP rather than just being tacked on half-assed PvP. The closest were games like UO and SWG, which for their time were amazing games... then they were changed. But just as the PvE market has grown since then, the PvP market has too. The void left by games like UO and SWG have not been filled by any newer games. Some have attempted, but failed horribly due to low budgets and inexperienced programmers and poor design choices. There is still a huge void waiting to be filled by an actual quality PvP game, rather than forcing PvPers to either choose between a bad game or a good game with only tacked on PvP.

If EQ Next does open PvP right, along with the rest of the game, it will only make it more succesfull.

BTW if they make it open PvP, PvPers are obviously their target audience. Being a PvE player and wishing a PvP game was a PvE game doesn't make you their target audience.

A situation that will sort itself out with lightning quickness as the huge sucking sound of the PvE players quitting (or avoiding the game altogether) registers in the SOE bank accounts. If they designed the game to be PvP and don't announce that the consequent ganking will be a short-lived affair.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Drakephire

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 352

9/13/13 12:39:23 AM#11
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

Open PvP has never been the downfall of a game that was designed for it from the start. The poor design choices and shitty development / coding of PvP games has been their downfall. The only cases that have been made are a) Lots of people want a highly polished & well designed PvE themepark game b) People do not want a poorly designed broken piece of crap for a PvP "sandbox" game *coughdarkfall&mortalcough*.

We have yet to see a well funded & highly polished game resembling anything close to a sandbox with any sort of focus on PvP rather than just being tacked on half-assed PvP. The closest were games like UO and SWG, which for their time were amazing games... then they were changed. But just as the PvE market has grown since then, the PvP market has too. The void left by games like UO and SWG have not been filled by any newer games. Some have attempted, but failed horribly due to low budgets and inexperienced programmers and poor design choices. There is still a huge void waiting to be filled by an actual quality PvP game, rather than forcing PvPers to either choose between a bad game or a good game with only tacked on PvP.

If EQ Next does open PvP right, along with the rest of the game, it will only make it more succesfull.

BTW if they make it open PvP, PvPers are obviously their target audience. Being a PvE player and wishing a PvP game was a PvE game doesn't make you their target audience.

UO was changed because open world PvP was destroying the game.  That is a fact. A few people were ruining the experience of hundreds of other players, and if the devs hadn't done anything (ie Trammel) the game would have ceased to exist.

You open world PvPers are your own worst enemy to be honest. You lament not having a well-funded game, but no serious investor is going to risk tens of millions of dollars on a game system that has little to no proof of concept.  The reality is that most players do not want open world pvp.  That means you're stuck with the likes of Darkfall, and you should count yourself lucky to have that.

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/13/13 4:23:02 AM#12
Originally posted by Drakynn

Seems like more reaching on the OPs part because he wants EQN to be 100% OW non-consensual PvP.

Once more the statement could be applied to many things

There is a roundtable question that also might relate to PvP

https://www.everquestnext.com/round-table?poll=contested-content

That would seem to indicate that PvP may be limited to contested areas but also may have nothing to do with PvP theoretically.

Contest content does not mean PvP.  It means open dungeons, contested bosses basically how far do you want them to go with allowing kill stealing.  Most people are responding that they would like a balance between contested and non contested. 

The PvP discussions will be coming later.

  Bigdaddyx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1318

9/13/13 4:31:29 AM#13
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

This is why best solution is to separate PVP servers from PVE ones. If that is even a possibility with their game design.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1530

9/13/13 4:41:08 AM#14
Originally posted by Drakephire
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

Open PvP has never been the downfall of a game that was designed for it from the start. The poor design choices and shitty development / coding of PvP games has been their downfall. The only cases that have been made are a) Lots of people want a highly polished & well designed PvE themepark game b) People do not want a poorly designed broken piece of crap for a PvP "sandbox" game *coughdarkfall&mortalcough*.

We have yet to see a well funded & highly polished game resembling anything close to a sandbox with any sort of focus on PvP rather than just being tacked on half-assed PvP. The closest were games like UO and SWG, which for their time were amazing games... then they were changed. But just as the PvE market has grown since then, the PvP market has too. The void left by games like UO and SWG have not been filled by any newer games. Some have attempted, but failed horribly due to low budgets and inexperienced programmers and poor design choices. There is still a huge void waiting to be filled by an actual quality PvP game, rather than forcing PvPers to either choose between a bad game or a good game with only tacked on PvP.

If EQ Next does open PvP right, along with the rest of the game, it will only make it more succesfull.

BTW if they make it open PvP, PvPers are obviously their target audience. Being a PvE player and wishing a PvP game was a PvE game doesn't make you their target audience.

UO was changed because open world PvP was destroying the game.  That is a fact. A few people were ruining the experience of hundreds of other players, and if the devs hadn't done anything (ie Trammel) the game would have ceased to exist.

You open world PvPers are your own worst enemy to be honest. You lament not having a well-funded game, but no serious investor is going to risk tens of millions of dollars on a game system that has little to no proof of concept.  The reality is that most players do not want open world pvp.  That means you're stuck with the likes of Darkfall, and you should count yourself lucky to have that.

The highlighted portion is by far the most true statement when it comes to the discussion of open world PvP. OW PvP players have nearly negated any chance of their ever being a AAA OW PvP game, and that's because those types of games tend to bring the worst out of the general community. Even Darktide in AC1, which I really liked, was plagued with idiots ganking newbs in starting zones. I remember dropping from portal space and then having to run about 10 minutes away from town before I finally found an area where I could find mobs my level to kill, loot and the players were similarly leveled hence the pvp was actual pvp.

I could see EQN having zones dedicated to PvP, but I highly doubt SOE is going to be stupid enough to attempt to cut out the majority of the gaming public. It'll be interesting to see what they do, because their decisions will literally make or break the game even before it's released.

  ghorgos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 128

9/13/13 6:11:57 AM#15
Originally posted by Bidwood

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind. 

because being limited to 8 skills is no artificial limit? Seems like this statement is limited as well.

(I know different context for the above statement but the game already has some limits and talking about no limits is hard to believe)

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

9/13/13 7:37:01 AM#16
Originally posted by ghorgos
Originally posted by Bidwood

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind. 

because being limited to 8 skills is no artificial limit? Seems like this statement is limited as well.

(I know different context for the above statement but the game already has some limits and talking about no limits is hard to believe)

+1.  Good point.  Also, i laughed pretty hard.  

 

Considering how hard it is to create a challenging and balanced PvE encounter for an "artificially limited" number of players, I have serious doubts about their ability to create an encounter that is equally challenging and balanced regardless of whether it's being fought by 3, 30 or 300 people.  

 

Heck, just imagine the testing that would need to be done:  instead of testing every encounter with 6 people (i.e. 1 group), you now need to test it with 1, with 2, with 3, with 4, with 5, with 6, with 7, with 8...etc, etc.   Because the mob can't simply hit harder, it's gotta gain new abilities and stuff.

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- Raph Koster

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  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7937

9/13/13 7:40:50 AM#17
they wont need instancing!what they use doesn't need it!there is a racing game that use similar thing and ask the guys that play it.im not sure any have seen the whole world yet ! this is probably harder to code but it does have huge benefit!
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6955

9/13/13 7:45:45 AM#18
Originally posted by Bidwood

If so, will they have instancing-like abilities (ex, temp domes that prevent people from entering/exiting where they are fighting) that prevent more pc’s from showing up and always causing the mobs to run?

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind.

 

http://eqn.junkiesnation.com/2013/09/10/storybricks-and-soe-answer-some-questions/

 

I can't help but wonder if this extends into the PVP context...  teeheehee...  open-world PVP with a life of consequence, please.

 

 

This is the at the core of sandbox design.

 

yep yep, Idk how or why people keep saying, quote after quote "it doesn't mean that" Trust me guys you will be ok, and than SOE for it.

Elder Scrolls Online vs Wildstar Mass PvP you decide.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6955

9/13/13 8:32:58 AM#19
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by Drakephire
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
There is simply no way around it in today's market. If they come out and announce this game as open PVP it is going on dead before it ever launches because they didn't understand what the average player in their supposed target audience wants from a game. While I am not personally against such a feature, history has made the case.

Open PvP has never been the downfall of a game that was designed for it from the start. The poor design choices and shitty development / coding of PvP games has been their downfall. The only cases that have been made are a) Lots of people want a highly polished & well designed PvE themepark game b) People do not want a poorly designed broken piece of crap for a PvP "sandbox" game *coughdarkfall&mortalcough*.

We have yet to see a well funded & highly polished game resembling anything close to a sandbox with any sort of focus on PvP rather than just being tacked on half-assed PvP. The closest were games like UO and SWG, which for their time were amazing games... then they were changed. But just as the PvE market has grown since then, the PvP market has too. The void left by games like UO and SWG have not been filled by any newer games. Some have attempted, but failed horribly due to low budgets and inexperienced programmers and poor design choices. There is still a huge void waiting to be filled by an actual quality PvP game, rather than forcing PvPers to either choose between a bad game or a good game with only tacked on PvP.

If EQ Next does open PvP right, along with the rest of the game, it will only make it more succesfull.

BTW if they make it open PvP, PvPers are obviously their target audience. Being a PvE player and wishing a PvP game was a PvE game doesn't make you their target audience.

UO was changed because open world PvP was destroying the game.  That is a fact. A few people were ruining the experience of hundreds of other players, and if the devs hadn't done anything (ie Trammel) the game would have ceased to exist.

You open world PvPers are your own worst enemy to be honest. You lament not having a well-funded game, but no serious investor is going to risk tens of millions of dollars on a game system that has little to no proof of concept.  The reality is that most players do not want open world pvp.  That means you're stuck with the likes of Darkfall, and you should count yourself lucky to have that.

The highlighted portion is by far the most true statement when it comes to the discussion of open world PvP. OW PvP players have nearly negated any chance of their ever being a AAA OW PvP game, and that's because those types of games tend to bring the worst out of the general community. Even Darktide in AC1, which I really liked, was plagued with idiots ganking newbs in starting zones. I remember dropping from portal space and then having to run about 10 minutes away from town before I finally found an area where I could find mobs my level to kill, loot and the players were similarly leveled hence the pvp was actual pvp.

I could see EQN having zones dedicated to PvP, but I highly doubt SOE is going to be stupid enough to attempt to cut out the majority of the gaming public. It'll be interesting to see what they do, because their decisions will literally make or break the game even before it's released.

Man, just stop. Wipe a dungeon party, and see what happens to you. Even worse tell someone you never have been there, wtf? Why do you think no one plays tank or healer? New players in those roles, 9/10 times don't stand a chance. The worst possible thing you can be is a new tank, in a new dungeon. You'll have 4 our of 5 players with their finger on the kick button.

 

The pve only community can and regularly do, deny people content, based on gear, experience, or whatever it is they maybe feeling that day. Heck a addon was made to help them do it better. Gear score anyone? Oh, you don't want/know how to glitch the dungeon? /kick. 

 

There are idiots on both sides of the fence. 

 

edit - " I highly doubt SOE is going to be stupid enough to attempt to cut out the majority of the gaming public."

 

Really? the last time I checked, shows the vast majority of the gaming community play pvp only games, and it's not even close.

 

 

 

Elder Scrolls Online vs Wildstar Mass PvP you decide.

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 137

9/13/13 9:19:18 AM#20
Originally posted by Bidwood

If so, will they have instancing-like abilities (ex, temp domes that prevent people from entering/exiting where they are fighting) that prevent more pc’s from showing up and always causing the mobs to run?

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind.

 

http://eqn.junkiesnation.com/2013/09/10/storybricks-and-soe-answer-some-questions/

 

I can't help but wonder if this extends into the PVP context...  teeheehee...  open-world PVP with a life of consequence, please.

 

 

you should have quoted all of that question, because the context is wrong without it.

 

Are human AI-equivalent mobs going to be designed such that it is required that no more than x people can fight said mobs at the same time (given that mobs can potentially run away at any time if they are outnumbered/outclassed/outskilled)? 

If so, will they have instancing-like abilities (ex, temp domes that prevent people from entering/exiting where they are fighting) that prevent more pc’s from showing up and always causing the mobs to run?

Terry Michaels: This sounds exactly like the kind of thing we do not want in EverQuest Next. Artificial limits and mechanisms that enforce those limits are not the types of solutions we are designing for this game. You will just have to wait for more information about our combat to see what we have in mind.

 

Example i would think of are World Bosses in WoW. They got "tagged" by the one who got the damage on it first and his group. artificial locking everyone out of the boss rewards. This SOE don't want. What this means also. IF you help someone you can get rewards, instead of WoW's you help some not in your group, You dont get a thing at all. Sounds a little bit like GW2 where you only have to hit a mob and you can get loot. Lets hope SOE can make the right balance between these two.

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