Trending Games | Swordsman | World of Warcraft | Elder Scrolls Online | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,736,916 Users Online:0
Games:714  Posts:6,175,840
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Remember the good old MMO's? Taking off my rose-colored glasses and seeing reality

29 Pages First « 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 » Last Search
578 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/11/13 8:55:19 PM#181
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet

So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.

LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.

Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?

I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.

But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.

Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.

 

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

9/11/13 9:30:06 PM#182
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

When original EQ had 500k players, it had 500k people paying every month. And sold 500k boxes. How many boxes did lol or WoT sell?

Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.

Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.

 

 

The number I heard for LoL in an interview was under 4%, because of the model. The articles I have seen said "up to 10%" on a game to game basis. Which means for most it is much less.

And keep in mind, that is "players who ever pay anything".

How many of those meet or exceed a typical sub fee is anyone's guess. But likely not many do.

Sure, there are a lot of F2P players, but on a per user basis the revenue average is in the toilet.  And that is actually going in the wrong direction, as the number of users (for "eveything" ) climb but overall revenue does not keep pace on that increase and the graph bends even further the wrong way.

It does not bode well at all for the MMORPG industry, even if the "everything" numbers are increasing.

 

And frankly, if you are a non-customer that is an avowed "pay nothing" player, who is going to care about your opinions and playing preferences anyway? This is a for profit industry, like all the others.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

9/11/13 9:44:24 PM#183
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet

So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.

LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.

Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?

I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.

But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.

Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.

 

People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.

They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.

It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.

And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years?  Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).

It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

9/11/13 9:47:43 PM#184
Originally posted by Burntvet

 

The number I heard for LoL in an interview was under 4%, because of the model. The articles I have seen said "up to 10%" on a game to game basis. Which means for most it is much less.

And keep in mind, that is "players who ever pay anything".

How many of those meet or exceed a typical sub fee is anyone's guess. But likely not many do.

 2012's posted profit for LoL was 150 million...

Guess that would be the reason why Tencent invested 400 million into buying out Riot Games.

  User Deleted
9/11/13 11:19:49 PM#185


Originally posted by Burntvet
]People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.

They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.

It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.

And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years?  Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).

It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.



If the F2P model didn't work, Western companies wouldn't be trying to shift in that direction. The only problem working against them is mistrust developed by many Westerners that companies are trying to use it to nickle and dime them to death, it merely is just new and not quite understood. But if it works for Dota 2 and LoL, surely it can work for MMO's despite higher development costs, the online service part is pretty much in tact. Both companies constantly have to develop content to keep people happy and to keep developing customers.


Providing the players the option to pay on their own terms invites more people into their game where they otherwise wouldn't even be playing if a subscription was utilized instead. That's the part you forget is that subscriptions also act as a wall for some consumers and a wall that some might not care to pay. So even if only 10% of players that play an MMO actually pay for items on a monthly basis, those 10% probably would be the only ones in the game if a subscription was used instead.


The other point you forget too is the amount of money spent per spending player has much greater potential because you aren't pidgeon holing them into a set amount per month, the freedom to spend as little or as MUCH is there. Again, if you understood simple business, you definitely invest in potential otherwise the advertising industry wouldn't be taking over America, Idiocracy-style because that's all people pay when they invest in ads is for potential.


I can see future MMO's doing away with subs together or implementing free and sub options both into each MMO because giving the consumer freedom to spend as little or much is much better than forcing the profit out of them on a monthly basis.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 7:47:24 AM#186
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet

So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.

LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.

Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?

I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.

But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.

Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.

 

People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.

They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.

It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.

And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years?  Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).

It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.

Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

9/12/13 8:39:54 AM#187
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

When original EQ had 500k players, it had 500k people paying every month. And sold 500k boxes. How many boxes did lol or WoT sell?

Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.

Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.

 

Ok.. just a few numbers and facts to get some truth straight.

EVE yearly revenue $66 million - http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/

WoW yearly revenue above $1 billion - http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/11/analyst-world-of-warcraft-revenues-drop-54-in-7-months/

LoL yearly revenue (estimates) $25-50 million - http://www.businessinsider.com/digital-100#51-riot-games-51

 

LoL is incredible successful, especially considering for how less invested money, and production costs. It is just a MOBA, and MOBAs are a lot cheaper to develop than any MMO. But it is by far not that financial successful as you claim.

With other words.. your so poor EvE does generate more revenue than LoL.. and WoW of course do generate more revenue than anything else within the gaming industry. And in regards to EvE and WoW.. both do it more or less the last 10 years.

Amount of players don't mean a lot within the F2P revenue model.. you don't get steadily 15$/month, nor any initial sales. And paying players can mean players, which spend once in five years 5$ or less.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

9/12/13 9:37:29 AM#188
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet

So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.

LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.

Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.

Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever.  So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.

Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?

I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.

But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.

Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.

 

People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.

They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.

It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.

And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years?  Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).

It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.

Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*

Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.

Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 10:03:46 AM#189
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Burntvet

People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.

They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.

It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.

And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years?  Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).

It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.

Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*

Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.

Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.

Zynga's mistakes were a) reskinning, b) saturated platform (FB) and c) being tied to another's platform(FB)  - the least significant factor was the microtransaction business model. Please, do some research.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

9/12/13 10:04:48 AM#190
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.

Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.

 

And i hear Riot Games subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and they are so successful that someone want to buy them out for $400M.

 

  Stone_Fountain

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/13
Posts: 69

"Death is certain, life is not."

9/12/13 10:36:22 AM#191
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.

Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.

 

And i hear Riot Games subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and they are so successful that someone want to buy them out for $400M.

 

Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here. 

 

The argument/discussion revolves around older, standard MMOs vs. the newer MMO models. The F2P vs. P2P arena is so polarized that the same people jump in different threads and hawk their opinion about the pricing models. *head desk*

 

If a game gives me all the content I am after in F2P or P2P price model. If it gives me joy to play it and has the addiction factor to continue to log in after months and months. (Note I am a >20 hours/week player) Then I am there. Argueing F2P and P2P when it is the game itself that brings people in. If a game is simply spectacular, people will find a way to play and afford it. We are ALL RPGers and we ALL are looking for that one game that we simply love to play. Some of us have found it and some of us are still looking. Some of us like older games alot but want something similiar reinvented with modern graphics and features.

My take is many newer games are set up like Single Player games. SWTOR and RIFT were P2P but man did it take like no time to cruise into the dailies and repetitiveness of them. Collect everything, max level and get the best gear. The truth remains if you haven't played them as of today there is real value in picking up the software as cheaply as possible and playing them for free if you are on a budget. If you find them fun then who really can argue?

 

I personally do not like cash shops. I am older and I prefer (just my own preference right or wrong) to pay 1 price and have access to all existing content without having to pay more. I do not like having to pay for appearance items or skills or xp potions. These things should be available through player made crafting or in game plat. To me if in-game plat earned in game is used to buy an xp potion then its ok. People who use REAL money in alot of games to buy the same thing are cheating. Some games though it's not cheating. I prefer to play my games with what is available in the game. If I need to spend money to make the game fun for me (content notwithstanding) then I am kidding myself about said game and how much fun it really is.

 

The 'rose colored glasses' the OP wrote about has merit but some new games are and look promising. Not many, but a few.

 

First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

9/12/13 10:48:07 AM#192
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

 

Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here. 

Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 11:25:43 AM#193
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here. 

Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.

If he wants to stick with traditional MMOs, here's a link:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/wow-microtransactions/

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

9/12/13 11:38:32 AM#194
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here. 

Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.

If he wants to stick with traditional MMOs, here's a link:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/wow-microtransactions/

 

heheh .. yeah. Cash shop is the norm now. I wonder when WOW is going to get rid of the sub-only model.

 

  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3605

9/12/13 11:44:12 AM#195
Lamenting over MMOs from what they were 10 years ago is like pining for the days when gas was a quarter.... Different time, different circumstances......Some things were better, but the payment model was not one of those things.......
  Stone_Fountain

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/13
Posts: 69

"Death is certain, life is not."

9/12/13 12:33:48 PM#196

Isn't Wow F2P Now with a choice?

 

So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think. 

First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

9/12/13 1:37:34 PM#197
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Isn't Wow F2P Now with a choice?

 

So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think. 

No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.

but the sub-only model is dying. 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/12/13 1:40:22 PM#198
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Isn't Wow F2P Now with a choice?

 

So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think. 

No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.

but the sub-only model is dying. 

The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.

Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.

My computer is better than yours.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

9/12/13 1:47:21 PM#199
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Isn't Wow F2P Now with a choice?

 

So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think. 

No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.

but the sub-only model is dying. 

The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.

Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.

True. That is why whales are important to devs.

And if devs don't want leeches, they dont have to make it possible. And if they make it possible, i dont see a reason why i should not take advantage of it. I dont play games to contribute to anything. I play them for entertainment.

  FlyinDutchman87

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/10
Posts: 163

9/12/13 2:00:17 PM#200

The issue with MMO's is the same issue with the entire gaming industry ATM. Dev's are making shallow games to please the masses and make tons of money. The reasons are obvious and at the end of the day it's likely to never change. 

 

Lets say an MMO costs 50 million to make(some are less some are more)....

 

Sell a million boxes at 50$ +3 monthes of 15$ subs. = 95 MILLION dollars.

 

Even with infrastruture costs and post lauch development that's still ove50% ROI which is huge.

 

Why waste more time and money to make a good game when you can just milk the cash cow?

 

Hell TOR supposedly costs like 200 mil to make and THEY even made money even though it was supposely one of the worst MMO flops ever. they sold like 4 million boxes or something ridiculous.

 

 

Dev's arn't going to change their tune until they stop making money and sadly they arn't going to stop making money any time soon.

29 Pages First « 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 » Last Search