Trending Games | Trove | Elder Scrolls Online | Darkest Dungeon | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,769,220 Users Online:0
Games:720  Posts:6,186,896
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs too Massive?

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
137 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

9/12/13 11:36:42 AM#101
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

The actual size of the world doesn't matter except in relation to its population. This is why people think Eve is so amazing that every game should be like Eve and be 1 server!

 

Let's address that too.

Many MMOs are focused on small group instanced gameplay. So "massive" is irrelevant except the city lobby that you are in. Most of the time, you won't see more than a few players (may be up to 40 in a big battleground?).

 

You need a large population to do that though. Lets say there are only 40 players on the server, they cannot be on 24/7 ready for a big battleground. And they want to do other things, they only do big battleground once a week in the evening. So you need tons more. I would point out the even a FPS like Battlefield can handle more then 40 players in a match. And you have played the MMO FPS PS2 Nari, those mega battles need a lot more as I imagine GW2 does.

Large population ... yes .. no different that LoL, WoT, and many online games need a large population to keep the matching with groups fast, and so on.

But the gameplay itself is not massive.

You may as well say CoD is massive in population, which is true.

 

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

9/12/13 11:49:02 AM#102
I dont remember the last game I played that was too massive.....Even WoW never felt massive because there were so many servers.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 11:51:26 AM#103
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

The actual size of the world doesn't matter except in relation to its population. This is why people think Eve is so amazing that every game should be like Eve and be 1 server!

What they don't realize is how small Eve's population is compared to these MMO releases. Its not even close and Eve's galaxy is so large and mostly empty space. A land game with that size would be a truly massive beast of an undertaking to populate. Perhaps as our programing Algo's get better we can have AI create us that large of render world, but for now its just not possible (or hasn't been so far..)

Of all the reasons I've heard for and against the single-server architecture, that seems to be one I've rarely seen presented, most likely because it's an odd combination of two unrelated things - single server design and physical world size.

While in EVE, one *can* go to an isolated place and feel all alone, the reality is that most players are in populated and trafficked areas. It's very true that the size of the game world doesn't matter except in relation to its population. However, in more massive world environments, the difference lies in where the content is and what the content is. In a more themepark design (ex: WOW, LOTRO, AoC), the content is not only tiered but every last bit of space is used. When acquisition slows, bigger gaps of empty space start to build in the middle zones because there are less characters in that level range. The problem comes in the fact that in those games, the players must complete the content of those areas to progress to the later areas. This creates undesirable empty space, as players feel they are alone in the world or on a 'dead' server.

To give you a better understanding of why some players and developers like single-server MMOs, here are a few links:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/05/opinion_designing_a_single_ser.php

http://themess.com/gamestuff/2009/02/single-shard-universe-eve-online/

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132563/infinite_space_an_argument_for_.php  (a very great read on the topic)

 

My affinity for the single-server design is one of the reasons I've been watching several of the indie games. They tend to focus on a single server for their games, allowing for greater player control and more dynamic storytelling since less resources have to be devoted toward maintaining and controlling it all. The things we could learn from a game like The Repopulation, combined with what we've seen in existing single-server worlds (ex: ATITD, EVE) could prove invaluable for game designers, as it allows us to watch a new community grow, whereas the existing games already have very formed core communities due to how long they've been around.

 

 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/12/13 11:58:11 AM#104
Single server game also remain niche for only catering to a single section of the player base. See Darkfall and MO, and their refusal to add non-PvP servers. Those games would double their player base with PvE servers with optional PvP, instead of forcing it on everyone playing.

My computer is better than yours.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 12:50:57 PM#105
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Single server game also remain niche for only catering to a single section of the player base. See Darkfall and MO, and their refusal to add non-PvP servers. Those games would double their player base with PvE servers with optional PvP, instead of forcing it on everyone playing.

Are you suggesting that Free Realms and ATITD would double their playerbase if they offered PVP combat servers, too? That seems a hard sell, as I don't see the correlation between the server architecture and the game design choices that you are suggesting.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3143

9/12/13 1:21:05 PM#106

     Too massive?    More like not massive enough..  Sure some games will have 100k or millions of accounts, but  when was the last time you saw or felt the zone was full of adventures?..  This is a classic reason why I hate instancing.. All it does is make the game nothing more then "group" RPG..  Nothing massive about it..  I would love to see zones again when you have multiple groups across the zone doing their thing.. Soloer's spaced out over here and there..  Occasionally the reason for ALL of them to unite to take down the invasion (Rift comes to mind) or the big bad Dragon (EQ)..  With the exception of meeting places, such as your cities, every game in the past 5 years has felt like a ghost town.. 

    Currently I play around in GW2 and most of the zones feel like ghost towns.. Hell , most of the waypoints in the high level zones are locked out, and no one is in the zone to help take them back.. What a waste of space..

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/12/13 1:57:47 PM#107
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Single server game also remain niche for only catering to a single section of the player base. See Darkfall and MO, and their refusal to add non-PvP servers. Those games would double their player base with PvE servers with optional PvP, instead of forcing it on everyone playing.

Are you suggesting that Free Realms and ATITD would double their playerbase if they offered PVP combat servers, too? That seems a hard sell, as I don't see the correlation between the server architecture and the game design choices that you are suggesting.

Except that Full PvP players are a minority. That was my point. If those "extreme" games were offering options, they would at least double their player base.

My computer is better than yours.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

9/12/13 9:33:25 PM#108
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Too massive?    More like not massive enough..  Sure some games will have 100k or millions of accounts, but  when was the last time you saw or felt the zone was full of adventures?..  This is a classic reason why I hate instancing.. All it does is make the game nothing more then "group" RPG..  Nothing massive about it..  I would love to see zones again when you have multiple groups across the zone doing their thing.. Soloer's spaced out over here and there..  Occasionally the reason for ALL of them to unite to take down the invasion (Rift comes to mind) or the big bad Dragon (EQ)..  With the exception of meeting places, such as your cities, every game in the past 5 years has felt like a ghost town.. 

    Currently I play around in GW2 and most of the zones feel like ghost towns.. Hell , most of the waypoints in the high level zones are locked out, and no one is in the zone to help take them back.. What a waste of space..

Yes, and that is how many players like it. Otherwise, why would that becomes the dominant design?

Personally, i like small group dungeon run much more than open dungeons with hundreds of players in it. That is just not how i envision a dungeon run should be.

 

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 9:34:28 PM#109
Originally posted by Scot

In reply to Foehammer:

Yes it is an oversimplification to say big is better. But I am pointing out here what the gaming industry is doing as much as my own preference. One of the results of having more computing power is larger games.

I take your point on population size, they can get too big. But that size is needed for large scale battles and so on, gameplay that smaller MMO like games struggle to deliver on.

I do agree that the ratio of population size to game size is important. I am not saying just throw in as many players as you can as that makes the game more multiplayer and somehow better. But most of the smaller MMO like games remove possibilities of interaction and that is important. If you have no housing, crafting that has no relevance, no need to group, no guild HQ etc, the population of a MMO will seem more impersonal and the experience of playing with others will seem somewhat pointless.

The problems with large communities is the feeling of being lost in the crowd, but that is as much to do with the changing nature of the MMO community. Which roughly changed over the years like this - roleplayers and PC RPG fans to console players and now to anyone with a social media account. This led to a lack of common interests and a schism as to what gameplay elements were important in MMOs. These factors I think were more important than the unwieldy size of the population.

Scot, thanks for the reply. I agree that there is a bit of a schism that the larger over-all population of gamers have brought into the genre. I think its a big concern as well. The #1 aspect I think we've lost is the dangerous world full of creatures you were afraid to fight alone and places you simply didn't journey to alone.

I do think you are creating some specific circumstances for a smaller population game that I have never advocated. I.E. the lack of current MMO standbys such as guild, crafting etc.

I have not indicated that any such game should have any fewer features than a large population server. On the contrary, I think a smaller community makes many of those features much better!

Lets take Housing! Currently, the solution to housing is to instance it. Server and world size limitations currently limit the amount space 25-50k people are having to share. Imagine a game world the same size as EQ2 or FF14 even, you could have houses and guild houses for everyone, completely UNINSTANCED. Now imagine said guild houses/keeps etc were destructible in clan warfare. That would certainly be much more meaningful and consequential than current MMOs.

Now let's look at Crafting! Currently, the only solution to crafting is Auction Houses. Every game that ships without one is bashed until it gets one. And that's because 25-50K people are a swarm, and it requires fast access to exchange the very high number of goods being exchanged.

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

9/12/13 9:37:02 PM#110
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

How many players want to spend 30 min walking around finding people just to buy a sword?

Personally i prefer a AH. I don't play games just to go around and barter. I play them mostly for combat, and a little craft & trade. I don't want to haggle, or have to spend time knowing crafters. That is not why i play games.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 9:43:33 PM#111
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now let's look at Crafting! Currently, the only solution to crafting is Auction Houses. Every game that ships without one is bashed until it gets one. And that's because 25-50K people are a swarm, and it requires fast access to exchange the very high number of goods being exchanged.

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?

Most players don't want to go visit that great blacksmith, though, which is one reason why auction houses exist. Also, personally haggling requires the other player to be online at the same time you are, which is another reason auction houses became the preferred system by players. The smaller the community, the lower the chance of player interaction.

All that aside, the presence of auction houses isn't what broke direct trading or personal trading. Universal auction houses, banks and inventories did. The more regionally restricted the goods and access to them are are, the more demand there is for crafters and the more opportunities there are for them to carve their own niche and make a name for themselves.

 

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 9:47:09 PM#112
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

I happen to believe that a part of the problem with that formula is that the MMO is like a New York street:

Thousands of faces that you happen across briefly and then move on. Occasionally you pick up something they dropped and hand it to them with a quick smile, but then you move on. I feel like I man that lonely New Yorker surrounded by thousands all to busy with whatever it is they are doing alone to notice there are people around they could interact with. And that's the issue, there is no reason or reward for much meaningful interaction.

And yet, somehow, New Yorkers do manage to belong to multiple communities, social circles and intimate groups.
It seems the more sensible approach would be to emulate how they go about doing that rather than to create contrived scenarios or conditions to force an environment that human beings (present day, at least) simply aren't wired for.

 I was speaking metaphorically. I know that a city where people actually live their entire lives will be more full of community that a game world visited for a few hours each day.

I like your ideas about creatively providing new ways for player to interact in a meaningful way and I agree it sounds great.

Yet, I see no evidence of this in the upcoming/current games. I don't see a trend here towards more group play. I see a trend towards more solo content and instant cross server queue content with people you will likely NEVER meet again.

Unless you can provide specific evidence that grand new schemes are in the works by developers to provide more meaningful community interaction; I still respectfully that someone try a smaller more intimate game world where how you treat others around you has meaningful impact.

I get the feeling the two lines highlighted above are one in the same to you - group play and meaningful community interaction, that is.  Am I reading you correctly on that one?

 I should have worded that better you are right.

I do NOT consider the current instant queue dungeon runs on ez mode to be "group play". At best they are a multiplayer rush to get loot. This includes "Massive" 25 man instant queue raids.

Meaningful community interaction is what I think is most missing in today's latest MMO releases and I believe the #1 culprit is the huge player pools these games have evoked. I realized that during this exchange. It isn't "Massive in world scope" its "massive in player pool" that most concerns me. Too many people, too little real estate, too little need to interact with each other.

Massive Auction Houses make trade completely disconnected from interaction.

Easy group play/content results in a rush mentality that lacks tactics or interaction by the players.

Guild "rewards" and instant raid queues have eroded the glue that used to hold many guilds together: their need to band together.

Single player quest grinds have invaded, conquered and enslaved every theme park game to the point that the vast majority of leveling consists of a single player experience with "others" nearby "doing the same stuff" with no meaning or challenge.  

I'd like to see an intrepid developer challenge the norm. Create a world where player interaction is more meaningful and you are accountable with how you treat those around you. Eliminate some of the anonymity that these million player cross server instance/raid finders have created. Let's see if something different could work a bit better!

  Shreddi

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 316

"The decisions you make today will effect the rest of your life"
-Danny Devito

9/12/13 9:50:18 PM#113
Agree.  Do the F2P have an ignore feature?  Those work but depending on game might be talking to your self haha. 

This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 9:53:28 PM#114
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now let's look at Crafting! Currently, the only solution to crafting is Auction Houses. Every game that ships without one is bashed until it gets one. And that's because 25-50K people are a swarm, and it requires fast access to exchange the very high number of goods being exchanged.

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?

Most players don't want to go visit that great blacksmith, though, which is one reason why auction houses exist. Also, personally haggling requires the other player to be online at the same time you are, which is another reason auction houses became the preferred system by players. The smaller the community, the lower the chance of player interaction.

All that aside, the presence of auction houses isn't what broke direct trading or personal trading. Universal auction houses, banks and inventories did. The more regionally restricted the goods and access to them are are, the more demand there is for crafters and the more opportunities there are for them to carve their own niche and make a name for themselves.

 

 I'd like to see a poll on that. I don't necessarily doubt that "most players" would agree with you. The game I am talking about wouldn't be for "Everyone". I'm not talking about building WoW 2 or GW 3. I'm talking about a different kind of game that instead caters to those would like to know the guy that spent 2 hours finding that metal, and working to make the highest quality weapon he could. I want to talk to that smith, and get to know him.

If you wouldn't want to do that, its fine. Merely, post that you disagree with me, and want to see tens of thousands of NPCs..i mean other people you don't talk to, in the world around you. it's cool, you can enjoy that.

I do have to disagree with the Auction House issue. If you are trading with a chart, you are trading with a chart.

If you want to go buy something from a store you have to wait til its open. (I.e., online.)

I'm looking for people that want to see something different :).

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 9:55:15 PM#115
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

How many players want to spend 30 min walking around finding people just to buy a sword?

Personally i prefer a AH. I don't play games just to go around and barter. I play them mostly for combat, and a little craft & trade. I don't want to haggle, or have to spend time knowing crafters. That is not why i play games.

 

 That's great Nari. There's a lot of games waiting for you to go slay mobs in!

I'm hoping to find one that piques my interest and gets me interacting with other players online again.

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 9:58:45 PM#116
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

The actual size of the world doesn't matter except in relation to its population. This is why people think Eve is so amazing that every game should be like Eve and be 1 server!

 

Let's address that too.

Many MMOs are focused on small group instanced gameplay. So "massive" is irrelevant except the city lobby that you are in. Most of the time, you won't see more than a few players (may be up to 40 in a big battleground?).

 

 Massive is the size of the player pool. When queuing for what passes as multiplayer content these days. You are queued from a pool of hundreds of thousands up to millions. People you will never see again. This has created a situation, where there is a distinct lack of community and player interaction.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/12/13 10:51:39 PM#117
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now let's look at Crafting! Currently, the only solution to crafting is Auction Houses. Every game that ships without one is bashed until it gets one. And that's because 25-50K people are a swarm, and it requires fast access to exchange the very high number of goods being exchanged.

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?

Most players don't want to go visit that great blacksmith, though, which is one reason why auction houses exist. Also, personally haggling requires the other player to be online at the same time you are, which is another reason auction houses became the preferred system by players. The smaller the community, the lower the chance of player interaction.

All that aside, the presence of auction houses isn't what broke direct trading or personal trading. Universal auction houses, banks and inventories did. The more regionally restricted the goods and access to them are are, the more demand there is for crafters and the more opportunities there are for them to carve their own niche and make a name for themselves.

 

 I'd like to see a poll on that. I don't necessarily doubt that "most players" would agree with you. The game I am talking about wouldn't be for "Everyone". I'm not talking about building WoW 2 or GW 3. I'm talking about a different kind of game that instead caters to those would like to know the guy that spent 2 hours finding that metal, and working to make the highest quality weapon he could. I want to talk to that smith, and get to know him.

If you wouldn't want to do that, its fine. Merely, post that you disagree with me, and want to see tens of thousands of NPCs..i mean other people you don't talk to, in the world around you. it's cool, you can enjoy that.

I do have to disagree with the Auction House issue. If you are trading with a chart, you are trading with a chart.

If you want to go buy something from a store you have to wait til its open. (I.e., online.)

I'm looking for people that want to see something different :).

So, you're suggesting that auctions houses have been adopted and used for a decade because no one wanted them? Are you also suggesting that most players would rather wait for a guy to be online or a shop to open?

As for the yellow part, it would be cool if you left the assumptions and passive aggressive stuff out of this. There was nothing in my post that indicated my playstyle or preferences. Personally, I enjoy personal shops. Krom Flaa. That was the blacksmith I used to visit for all my PVP weapons. Exceptional quality and deadly poison. Haven't played that game in years but I still remember his name because that gameplay made an impact for me. However, I'm not about to suggest that the quirky RP and hometown socializing crap that I enjoy doing in MMOs is any indication of how others want to play.

"Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?"

You asked how it was better and I gave you an answer as to some ways that it is. If you didn't want an answer, don't ask.

 

  FoeHammerJT

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 149

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

 
OP  9/12/13 11:22:19 PM#118
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

Now let's look at Crafting! Currently, the only solution to crafting is Auction Houses. Every game that ships without one is bashed until it gets one. And that's because 25-50K people are a swarm, and it requires fast access to exchange the very high number of goods being exchanged.

Now, shrink that population to 400 people. Instead of an anonymous auction house you go visit that great blacksmith in that other city and see what he has in his shop. You would have to seek out crafters, get to know them and have the opportunity to personally haggle for your goods. (maybe even thru an NPC interface as an offline option.)

Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?

Most players don't want to go visit that great blacksmith, though, which is one reason why auction houses exist. Also, personally haggling requires the other player to be online at the same time you are, which is another reason auction houses became the preferred system by players. The smaller the community, the lower the chance of player interaction.

All that aside, the presence of auction houses isn't what broke direct trading or personal trading. Universal auction houses, banks and inventories did. The more regionally restricted the goods and access to them are are, the more demand there is for crafters and the more opportunities there are for them to carve their own niche and make a name for themselves.

 

 I'd like to see a poll on that. I don't necessarily doubt that "most players" would agree with you. The game I am talking about wouldn't be for "Everyone". I'm not talking about building WoW 2 or GW 3. I'm talking about a different kind of game that instead caters to those would like to know the guy that spent 2 hours finding that metal, and working to make the highest quality weapon he could. I want to talk to that smith, and get to know him.

If you wouldn't want to do that, its fine. Merely, post that you disagree with me, and want to see tens of thousands of NPCs..i mean other people you don't talk to, in the world around you. it's cool, you can enjoy that.

I do have to disagree with the Auction House issue. If you are trading with a chart, you are trading with a chart.

If you want to go buy something from a store you have to wait til its open. (I.e., online.)

I'm looking for people that want to see something different :).

So, you're suggesting that auctions houses have been adopted and used for a decade because no one wanted them? Are you also suggesting that most players would rather wait for a guy to be online or a shop to open?

As for the yellow part, it would be cool if you left the assumptions and passive aggressive stuff out of this. There was nothing in my post that indicated my playstyle or preferences. Personally, I enjoy personal shops. Krom Flaa. That was the blacksmith I used to visit for all my PVP weapons. Exceptional quality and deadly poison. Haven't played that game in years but I still remember his name because that gameplay made an impact for me. However, I'm not about to suggest that the quirky RP and hometown socializing crap that I enjoy doing in MMOs is any indication of how others want to play.

"Houses and Crafting are made better with huge server populations in what ways exactly?"

You asked how it was better and I gave you an answer as to some ways that it is. If you didn't want an answer, don't ask.

 

 You and I are having a disagreement on premises. Your premise is that whatever is most popular must also be best.

My premise is that just because a lot of people like something, doesn't mean I need to like it as well. I'm not saying Auction Houses don't appeal to the masses. Clearly they do, for if a game dares try to implement trade in any other fashion its a cardinal sin; and they must repent!

So for the record: Auction Houses are popular. I don't like Auction Houses because they have eliminated trade between players for a majority of the time.

Next point: I feel like there is a rather large difference between Trade and Crafting.  You need not do one to do the other.

I hardly believe Auction Houses are friendly to crafters.

Point of fact: Since the advent of Auction Houses, gathered materials have tended to out trend craft items. There has been some progress in this area, but in GW2, WoW, EQ2, gathered materials tend to sell for more than a finished product. FF14's HQ and complex crafting system, long grind, and fairly significantly learning curve (all good things by me) are making some impact. By further eliminating the randomness in gathering they have made some progress towards goods being valuable vs materials and that's great!

I still think Crafters are better off without an Auction House, but not necessarily traders (And certainly not gold farmers!) This is my opinion and probably not the opinion of the masses, we are talking about the same masses lining up to instant queue and play Call of Duty 76: Yellow Ops Part 4, and instant queue for instances with people they neither speak with or will adventure with again.

I was asking for players' personal opinions on this forum regarding the subject matter. Not what you or anyone else holds to be "The Truth of the Majority" .

I dissent.

 

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5140

9/13/13 3:11:54 AM#119

Replying to multiple posts:

@Nari - Well I am talking about the size in memory and number of polygons. But also the level/game world size as well. I think the only reason you think Splinter Cell is not getting bigger is the console effect as I mentioned.

I am not a CoD player Nari, but this is all relative. Put enough players in a FPS and I would call it massive. PS2 qualifies there. Gameplay in AoC, WH, GW2 is massive; not in all areas of course, just certain 'battelzones'. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here, but if WoT had enough players on a big enough map I would call it massive multiplayer, just not a MMORPG.

@Single servers - I am not adverse to one server, for game play reasons it has many advantages. But as a roleplayer I have found official rp servers to always be better. I am sure there would be others who must have PVP servers as well, so you can see why this has remained a niche area.

@Foehammer - I don't think that things like housing work better with big populations. What I was saying was that smaller population MMO's tend to have smaller funding, which in turn means they leave features like housing out. I can see the appeal of a small, tight knit community, I know these work on unofficial RP servers for example. Just about everything you said in your subsequent post is where I stand. You cannot even call modern easyMMOs the successors of the old MMOs, they are so different they are in their own genre.

@Auction House Lovers - You go to a hub area where all the crafters are, you don't have to go on an adventure to find a blacksmith. :) In fact you would travel the same amount of time, just going to see players rather than an AH.

@Popular - This is the argument they always roll out whenever anything about modern easyMMOs is questioned. There are many MMO's with said gameplay, MMOs are doing well so everything must be great! Lets look at cars, they are popular, the companies that make them are making huge amounts of money. So the car industry must be fine! For heavens sake don't bring up the need for hybrids and start talking about CO2 emissions. Just because something is popular does not mean it is perfect.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/13/13 7:56:20 AM#120
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT

 You and I are having a disagreement on premises. Your premise is that whatever is most popular must also be best.

I was asking for players' personal opinions on this forum regarding the subject matter. Not what you or anyone else holds to be "The Truth of the Majority" .

False. I at no points said anything was best, rather that the design is currently most common because it is the most desirable. Good, better, best or bad is irrelevant. You seem to confuse fact and opinion. Actually, that seems to be your problem with each post that you don't agree with, but you're having trouble seeing that.

 

 

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search