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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The continuing rise of the cash shop

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105 posts found
  laserit

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1367

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

9/09/13 10:45:52 PM#81
Originally posted by 123443211234

 

Nah f2p is more like going to a bar that gives you  free drinks and then charges you $50 every time you need to use the bathroom. 

Haha

 

Great analogy

Zenimax kicked my dog

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

9/09/13 10:56:09 PM#82

No but you do get them going to f2p forums stating how evil f2p is.

And you get others going into every forum saying they should all be p2p.

Same crap different pile.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

9/10/13 12:39:38 AM#83

"What goes up, must come down."

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/10/13 6:34:18 AM#84


Originally posted by NaughtyP
"What goes up, must come down."


Only if it doesn't take off fast enough!

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/10/13 7:02:50 AM#85
Originally posted by Hitman211

Some people are fine with second rate entertainment so long as its free.

Others not so much.

I get why f2p games exist...I get why some like them.

I don't get why f2p gamers flood into p2p game forums and try to protest...

You don't see p2p gamers begging f2p games to go p2p...mostly because the f2p games are not very good..but still.

Can you link to where you see that happening?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

 
OP  9/10/13 11:31:40 AM#86
Originally posted by NaughtyP

"What goes up, must come down."

Yeh. We are seeing sub-only MMOs coming down now.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

 
OP  9/10/13 11:34:12 AM#87
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

It doesn't matter what YOU need. We already know what you get. You play a game until you hit a paywall and then move to the next game. But that's where the best experiences these games have to offer are kept. So you play these games but always getting the 3rd rate experience. And while you are fine with that, to almost everyone else, it's a crappy way to play. Not making any real progression, not having any sense of investment in what should be a long term experience, not caring what you do when, how where or why. Overall it seems less than a generic experience, It seems absolutely mindless to me.

LOl .. you seem to care about if i have fun or not. Don't worry, i am having loads of fun.

"Sense of investment"? I don't play games to "invest" and i certainly don't play for "long term experience".

I finished Marvel Heroes story missions. 30 hours of free fun. I may go back a little, and certainly when they have more content. Now tell me, where is the pay wall?

BTW, it is more fun than WOW (may be i am sick of WOW) for me, of course.

It's fine that you can do that since there are companies out there who give that to you, However, the primary reason you have it the way you do, is not because it's the future, but because all the games that have come and gone F2P have sucked bad.

Sour grapes?

Nothing last for ever. I don't need anything to be the future. Who knows what happen with entertainment in 5 years. I may not be even playing games then. What matter is that there are fun f2p games now.

 

  spaniard81

Novice Member

Joined: 7/31/12
Posts: 62

9/10/13 12:14:47 PM#88
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by 123443211234

Nah f2p is more like going to a bar that gives you  free drinks and then charges you $50 every time you need to use the bathroom. 

Haha

Great analogy

 

More like...

F2P = free shots, but if you want pint-size drinks you got to pay.

B2P = Most drinks (shots & pints) are free after paying an initial one-time free.

P2P = Most drinks (shots & pints) are free after paying an initial one-time fee, but before you even get to drink any of the "free" drinks you already paid for, you have to pay an entry fee every month, regardless of whether you show up or not.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4391

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

9/10/13 12:19:07 PM#89
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

It doesn't matter what YOU need. We already know what you get. You play a game until you hit a paywall and then move to the next game. But that's where the best experiences these games have to offer are kept. So you play these games but always getting the 3rd rate experience. And while you are fine with that, to almost everyone else, it's a crappy way to play. Not making any real progression, not having any sense of investment in what should be a long term experience, not caring what you do when, how where or why. Overall it seems less than a generic experience, It seems absolutely mindless to me.

LOl .. you seem to care about if i have fun or not. Don't worry, i am having loads of fun.

"Sense of investment"? I don't play games to "invest" and i certainly don't play for "long term experience".

I finished Marvel Heroes story missions. 30 hours of free fun. I may go back a little, and certainly when they have more content. Now tell me, where is the pay wall?

BTW, it is more fun than WOW (may be i am sick of WOW) for me, of course.

It's fine that you can do that since there are companies out there who give that to you, However, the primary reason you have it the way you do, is not because it's the future, but because all the games that have come and gone F2P have sucked bad.

Sour grapes?

Nothing last for ever. I don't need anything to be the future. Who knows what happen with entertainment in 5 years. I may not be even playing games then. What matter is that there are fun f2p games now.

 

It's not sour grapes. If this was a parallel phenomenon, I'd never even look twice at it. Unfortunately, what we have seen is the greed of developers who are trying to suck money out of gamers instead of operating under the idea that happy gamers spend money. And it's attitudes like yours that tell them they are right.

Your "happiness" with the games you play is relative.  It's because its not the games that make you happy, it's the fact that you don't have to pay. So picking the best from the worst makes you happy, while you overlook other games that are far better. But then you spread this garbage around like it's the new wave of things to come.

It's not. SWTOR launched with 2M sales. Those were people wanting and hoping to pay a sub for a great game. They didn't get it. It was the same for Rift. Now we are looking at FF14 as an initial runaway success. If the game can deliver, it will maintain the subs. We are looking at ESO and WildStar Launching with Subs required. If they sell a large number of boxes, and I am sure they will, then it means that these F2P games are just bad games. And if any of those 3 deliver what they promise, they will succeed. Your title, Rise of the cash shop, is really the same as saying the demise of games worth playing.

You go ahead and keep bellying up to that trash can in the alley and continue to tell everyone how well you are feasting.

Recently started playing SWTOR. I am posting updates to my experience in this thread:
SWTOR Experience

  User Deleted
9/10/13 12:25:51 PM#90
It's not a problem for me, I just won't participate. Cash shops galore!!! Have at it. Back when mmorpgs were fun cash shops took a back burner. Now that they are forefront, well that's still fine by me, I have other things I can do and will be doing. One of them will be shaking my head at the cash shop culture that is very much second class compared to the culture of yesterday, of course I will be doing that from the comfort of my fishing boat. Twas fun though while it lasted just like so many of my other hobbies.
  psiic

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 550

9/10/13 12:34:21 PM#91
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by spaniard81
Originally posted by nariusseldon

So GW2 has one.

WOW is experimenting with one, and most likely making it into the game.

Star Citizen is going to have one.

EQN? I bet EQN will be F2P with a cash shop.

It is the age of the whales.

So long as Cash shops do not ruin gameplay I have no issue with them. I think Anet has done a great job in managing the cash shop in GW2 and I believe it is a great model for other devs to follow.

If none-gameplay-interrupting cash shops mean we get F2P/B2P AAA mmorpgs then I say the more the merrier!

Oh i agree. I don't have a problem with them. In fact, they are great to extract money from whales to pay for the games.

I can totally ignore cash shops, which i do in every F2P games i play.

Problem is, its not whales paying the bills. Mostly it is people with impulsive compulsion disorders, addicts with real spending control issues.  Sadly item malls are designed to exploit people with these issues, the bright lights, loud design, the sparklies, all compulsion triggers. 

They aren't after a whale that spends $100 a month, they are after the people that max out a credit card each month.

I am a gambling addict I avoid casinos,  the US government realized online casinos were predators praying on people with compulsive disorders so they made them illegal, suddenly video games added their version of online casinos. 

Just wish we could go back t a flat monthly sub again.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/10/13 12:56:53 PM#92
Originally posted by psiic

Problem is, its not whales paying the bills. Mostly it is people with impulsive compulsion disorders, addicts with real spending control issues.  Sadly item malls are designed to exploit people with these issues, the bright lights, loud design, the sparklies, all compulsion triggers. 

They aren't after a whale that spends $100 a month, they are after the people that max out a credit card each month.

I am a gambling addict I avoid casinos,  the US government realized online casinos were predators praying on people with compulsive disorders so they made them illegal, suddenly video games added their version of online casinos. 

Just wish we could go back t a flat monthly sub again.

I'm interested in what data you base any of that on, as it contradicts everything I've seen so far.

 

As for the last line, that's simply feeding a personal illusion that the presence of a monthly sub means the absence of people who will spend beyond that on their game.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2901

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/10/13 1:07:24 PM#93


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by oilthu
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.

And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.

Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.

When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.



You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2901

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/10/13 1:08:34 PM#94


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by PAL-18

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
That is a strange definition of affecting.  Typically things you ignore do not affect you.  It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.

I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather.  I ignore people walking by my window.  I ignore the drone of the lights.

Most things that people ignore do not affect them.

These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.

Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you.  Weird.



That means you never got any candys and never will ?

Ok.  But that doesn't mean the lack of it affects you.

Yes it does. You are sknnier and have better teeth!

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

 
OP  9/10/13 1:19:22 PM#95
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by oilthu
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.


And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.

 

Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.

When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.



You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

 

It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.

 

  laserit

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1367

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

9/10/13 1:51:44 PM#96
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by oilthu
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.


And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.

 

Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.

When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.



You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

 

It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.

 

What would be interesting to find out is.

 

If the average P2P player spends say $15 a month, what does the average F2P player pay. The average, includes those that pay nothing.

Zenimax kicked my dog

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2901

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/10/13 1:55:17 PM#97


Originally posted by nariusseldon
It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.



Not quite what I was looking for. That does not answer my question, does it. How many F2P players spend money in cash shops, not how many spend money in MMOs.

I am having a tough time finding a report that is this specific. Most I see are gaming in general and buying virtual goods, or like yours, not making a distinction between F2P and P2P just lumping all gaming into one big pile.

What I am trying to find out is if the "whales support my gaming" is a valid claim. If over 50% of F2P players buy an item in the cash shop, than it is not a "whale" thing.

It is hard for me to believe that a small percentage of players spend enough every month in the cash shops to warrant numbers like the averaging of monthly revenue as each and every player pays more than the usual sub fee. I could be wrong, but that just does not add up for me.

It could all also be irrelevant :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

 
OP  9/10/13 2:00:36 PM#98
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Not quite what I was looking for. That does not answer my question, does it. How many F2P players spend money in cash shops, not how many spend money in MMOs.

 

I am having a tough time finding a report that is this specific. Most I see are gaming in general and buying virtual goods, or like yours, not making a distinction between F2P and P2P just lumping all gaming into one big pile.

That kind of detailed data probably costs money.

Go to newzoo.com and contact their rep. They may have access to such data. Free reports are usually not detailed, for the reason that if they give away the farm, who would buy the detailed data?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

 
OP  9/10/13 2:02:15 PM#99
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

What I am trying to find out is if the "whales support my gaming" is a valid claim. If over 50% of F2P players buy an item in the cash shop, than it is not a "whale" thing.

It is hard for me to believe that a small percentage of players spend enough every month in the cash shops to warrant numbers like the averaging of monthly revenue as each and every player pays more than the usual sub fee. I could be wrong, but that just does not add up for me.

 

from an old post of mine . focusing on whales.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php

Some snippets.

- some whales will spend thousands, even 10s of thousands of dollars on a game.

- pretty much solidify the convention wisdom that most players don't play.

"While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth." ... we are talking about sub-10% here .. many much lower.

- some devs exploits players, some don't and those don't believe that the brand is more valuable.

- a small number (since only a small % of whales, which themselves is of a small percentage of the paying customers) of players got exploited BAD. However, some don't even regret it.

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

9/10/13 2:19:02 PM#100

While not  a focused study on MMOs here is a Q1 2013 report from Playnomics. (http://www.playnomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Playnomics-Q1-Engagement-Report.pdf)

 

Page 6 has the economic data for a study of 1.7M new players out of a 50M player pool of social, casual and mobile game players. In that first quarter only 14K out of the 1.7M purchased anything. Granted that this is not a MMO report, but I would not be surprised if the figures noted in the report change significantly in a MMO.

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