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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Remember the good old MMO's? Taking off my rose-colored glasses and seeing reality

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578 posts found
  Pyuk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 659

9/09/13 4:51:28 PM#121
Originally posted by Cephus404

I absolutely don't agree.  The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then.  People need to stop pretending that it is.  As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase.  There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.

The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.

Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P. The poster child for this type of success is still EVE, imo. Yes, they have mainstreamed to some degree, but at it's foundation it's still catering to a hardcore niche market. Marc Jacobs seems to be going this route, which looks like so far will be the correct decision. ESO, on the other hand and even though being P2P, is trying to be all things to all people (the proverbial WoW mentality) and will unltimately fail, again imo, but all signs are pointing to true SWTOR failure - big budget, disregard to what made the IP popular in the first place, WoW inspired, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3512

9/09/13 4:52:08 PM#122
Ah well Venge the poster is opening a nigh empty can of worms there :)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/09/13 5:15:15 PM#123
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by DrCokePepsi
...The majority of MMO players are lost in MMORPG limbo waiting for a legitmate MMORPG to come out..

 


I am in agreement with this.

Obviously not the tens of millions who are actually playing MMORPGs.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/09/13 5:19:09 PM#124
Originally posted by Pyuk
 

Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P.

nah .. the future is to make online games other than MMOs. The big success is LoL, and WoT, which now many categorize as MMOs. They are f2p, and some here don't even consider them MMOs.

They are much bigger successes than Eve.

 

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1223

9/10/13 1:33:51 AM#125
Originally posted by Jairoe03


The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do.

Um. What? Every new MMO is the same damn thing with a different skin. I wake up, I go see someone who tells me I'm the last remaining hope for blah blah blah, I'm the hero of the story. Oh, but there's another thousand behind me that's also the last remaining hope and the hero of the story. I go to area A, I do quest chain 1, 2 and 3, I progress to area B, I do quest chain 4, 5 and 6, I go to area C..

It's the same game repackaged with different graphics. There hasn't been any 'strides' since World of Warcraft, because all the greedy devs want a slice of the WoW pie and are making carbon copies. Modern MMO's fear change, they don't want to risk building something different because it might not sell and they'll lose their investment. Look at ESO for a perfect example; instead of sticking to the vision of Elder Scrolls, it's yet another reskin of the standard MMO.

  User Deleted
9/10/13 1:43:51 AM#126


Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

As for this, I could reply with my last answer, I myself am not the grand bookkeeper of game genre parameters, and could simply reword my last response to try and reflect my views, but I myself understand that the MMORPG genre is being wrecked because It's category/genre defining standpoints have been blurred beyond recognition.

I'll recite how the genre should be about exploring a living world and creating another version of yourself in a game to experience the community and explore the world with that community is the general definition of the genre, give or take minor/ medium quantities of change and revolution(all this i mentioned in my original post), but what it has become now is just a poor example of greed in society by the developers and the unfortunate collapse of the genre due to the casual player base claiming their territory in our land.

//


And as for this, Categories my friend. Categories, sub-categories, things have to be classified as something, calling football NOT a genre and then saying it's just governed by sports is incorrect, as football itself is a category (genre) of sports. This is what has happened to gaming, instead of having different sports, the MMORPG's individual category under 'sports' has been blurred to the point where it has just become a generalization of all sports rather than it's own.

and of course i called an MMORPG a sport as an example it is clearly not a sport, this goes to whatever wise-ass who would have pointed this out



So in regards to your first post, you answer the question of what made you the authority actually what defines MMO should be by not actually answering the question. No where in your posts states why your opinion is so highly placed above others (with no real justification), its just your opinion stated over and over again without any supporting argument. It's kind of the meat of debates is the argument (which you have) and the support (which you don't have). There's no basis listed to why MMO's should be the way you stated aside from the fact that you said so. I'll take your lack of answering my question not once but twice as concession to the fact that all of this is purely opinion and what you state isn't fact despite you trying to present it as "fact".


The misperception of greed btw is also derived out of lack of understanding of basic economics, which I'll forgive you for but shouldn't be grounds on your own perceived "destruction of a genre" which is actually flourishing and expanding ever further.


In your regards to your second argument in how genre is actually defined within the video game realm just presents ignorance. Like a politician, your arguing in pure semantics when I merely pointed out an obvious flaw in the poster's argument. The analogy wasn't applied correctly because it wasn't exemplifying a whole genre being redefined. Answer me one question, what genre does NFL Blitz or NBA Jam fall under? It changes rules and doesn't follow the same premise as actual football or basketball but yet its still covered under the same category and genre...sports.


There isn't a football management genre or football genre, otherwise it'll be a genre categorizing literally 3-5 games. I want to think genre is a bit more encompassing than that. Even the sports genre within video games doesn't cover that many games compared to RPG, Action or FPS. So again, the application of that poster's analogy was just wrong and doesn't properly support the argument. Just pointing out a fallacy within the actual logic itself. And quite obviously you have no idea or at least didn't maintain perspective on what I was posting so why respond (to that post) anyway when you totally took it outside of its perspective.

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1223

9/10/13 1:45:01 AM#127
Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

 My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.

The problem being that these multitudes of people don't actually want to play an MMO, they want a single player game with a large amount of content. It's actually been stated on the solo vs group play thread multiple times from multiple people; most soloers are playing these games due to the large content and regular updates, not for the multiplayer aspects. The perfect example from this thread is quoted by narrius': "I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.".

So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.

And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.

  User Deleted
9/10/13 1:49:13 AM#128


Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Jairoe03 The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do.
Um. What? Every new MMO is the same damn thing with a different skin. I wake up, I go see someone who tells me I'm the last remaining hope for blah blah blah, I'm the hero of the story. Oh, but there's another thousand behind me that's also the last remaining hope and the hero of the story. I go to area A, I do quest chain 1, 2 and 3, I progress to area B, I do quest chain 4, 5 and 6, I go to area C..

It's the same game repackaged with different graphics. There hasn't been any 'strides' since World of Warcraft, because all the greedy devs want a slice of the WoW pie and are making carbon copies. Modern MMO's fear change, they don't want to risk building something different because it might not sell and they'll lose their investment. Look at ESO for a perfect example; instead of sticking to the vision of Elder Scrolls, it's yet another reskin of the standard MMO.



If you overly generalize a category or a genre of video games, you can say every game is a reskin of the previous games within the genre. MMO's actually have more to explore than most other genres and if you can't pick out the subtleties and differences in these games, then I believe you are selling yourself short or MMO's just aren't your thing, not as a shot against you but an honest opinion. I see many differences between the MMO's. Yes each of these MMO's are going to play the same way IN GENERAL, but the differences from each MMO is how the systems are implemented, how its brought together, the content etc.


Sure I'm the hero in FFXIV, but World of Warcraft can't make me feel like a hero within the Final Fantasy world/settings. There's something inherently unique that FF brings in its lore, style and monsters that no other game provides. Sure EVE Online has an Auction House just like every other MMO because I sell things to other people in a shared market, but it actually is a very deep "auction house" or economy. Guild Wars 2 has warriors, wizards and archers, but its roles are entirely defined differently compared to most other MMO's. You have to look at the details for the differences and not the generalities.


By your logic, Call of Duty is a reskin of Counter Strike, all you do is shoot people in the face and fight bad guys. Call of Duty is a reskin of Goldeneye 007 because thats all you do is shoot people in the face and kill bad guys. But obviously most people can tell there's differences. All I did in those couple sentences about FPS was GENERALIZE each game. You see how people can easily blur things together based on perspective? A genre exists because it generally explains a type of video game, a type of experience. The differences are in the details. If you refuse to acknowledge that or don't feel like trying to look for it yourself, then your interest obviously isn't large enough for that type of game and it probably will not fulfill your need for entertainment as sufficiently as something else.



Originally posted by UsualSuspect
....

So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.

And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.



And who are you to deny those people the experience that they want? Who are you to say that they are playing for the wrong reasons? Its funny you mention all these things on how these things can be played "single player" but I still find these people looking for guilds/companies to be a part of. I still find myself REQUIRING a group to complete pieces of the game that I otherwise can't explore on my own.


So, I don't really see where that MMO's are entirely single player. Sure, parts of the game can be done by yourself, but I already experienced the game that required me to group to get anywhere in the game aka DAOC or Ultima Online. You don't experience the whole game once you hit max level. I don't know anyone that wants to solo a boss or raid. Maybe you do, but that person doesn't represent everyone just like your opinion on what MMORPG's should and shouldn't be isn't shared by everyone. Hence why MMORPG's currently exists in the state its in today because your opinion is in fact a minority.


The old school MMO players just have to accept the evolution of the genre rather than fight for what already existed. I will repeat again, I would rather not go backward, taking steps forward is a much better approach to progress.

  User Deleted
9/10/13 1:57:16 AM#129

EDIT: I was actually trying to attach to this to the post above, sorry for two posts. Let's try to keep this thread cleaner.

  moosecatlol

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1178

9/10/13 2:04:54 AM#130

I don't mind subscriptions, I just would like to be subscribed to something new, preferably something new that didn't revolve around an exploitable market society.

All the P2P games available right now are hyper-casual and extremely safe and boring in terms of game design.

 

Honestly with each day that passes I lean more and more towards free to play mmos because I can actually find new games, games with developers that are willing to try new things.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/10/13 11:42:13 AM#131
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
 

The problem being that these multitudes of people don't actually want to play an MMO, they want a single player game with a large amount of content. It's actually been stated on the solo vs group play thread multiple times from multiple people; most soloers are playing these games due to the large content and regular updates, not for the multiplayer aspects. The perfect example from this thread is quoted by narrius': "I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.".

So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.

And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.

Why is this a problem? It is a free market. Shouldn't devs be free to pursue whatever audience they want?

Secondly, making MMOs into SP games is not dumbing down. Many SP games have deeper mechanics than MMOs.

Lastly, as i said before, i am not here to change MMOs ... it is the opposite. I am here BECAUSE MMOs are changing to more of my liking.

 

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

9/10/13 11:58:35 AM#132
Originally posted by Pyuk
Originally posted by Cephus404

I absolutely don't agree.  The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then.  People need to stop pretending that it is.  As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase.  There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.

The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.

Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P. The poster child for this type of success is still EVE, imo. Yes, they have mainstreamed to some degree, but at it's foundation it's still catering to a hardcore niche market. Marc Jacobs seems to be going this route, which looks like so far will be the correct decision. ESO, on the other hand and even though being P2P, is trying to be all things to all people (the proverbial WoW mentality) and will unltimately fail, again imo, but all signs are pointing to true SWTOR failure - big budget, disregard to what made the IP popular in the first place, WoW inspired, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Why?  There aren't enough people in most niche markets to make much money.  If 1% of the overall market is more than 100% of the niche market, what would be their impetus to go for the niche?  If they want to go PvP, why not just go FPS, which is a much more successful genre?

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/10/13 1:28:34 PM#133
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

Why?  There aren't enough people in most niche markets to make much money.  If 1% of the overall market is more than 100% of the niche market, what would be their impetus to go for the niche?  If they want to go PvP, why not just go FPS, which is a much more successful genre?

Most companies look at ROI, instead of absolute revenue/profit when they make investment decisions.

So niche is certainly reasonable for many genre of games because the required investment is low. You can make a puzzle game on a 2-man team. That is why the indie gaming scene flourishes after the barrier to sell (i.e. retail channel) is destroyed by online distribution.

MMO, however, has a minimum level of investment. You need to create enough content, and maintain servers. That cannot be done cheaply, and hence the minimum required size of an audience is much larger than other genre of games.

I would not expect to see lots of indie MMOs. May be Chris Robert can do it, because he can raise $20M. But how many indie guys can do that?

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

9/10/13 1:48:55 PM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
 

The problem being that these multitudes of people don't actually want to play an MMO, they want a single player game with a large amount of content. It's actually been stated on the solo vs group play thread multiple times from multiple people; most soloers are playing these games due to the large content and regular updates, not for the multiplayer aspects. The perfect example from this thread is quoted by narrius': "I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.".

So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.

And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.

Why is this a problem? It is a free market. Shouldn't devs be free to pursue whatever audience they want?

Secondly, making MMOs into SP games is not dumbing down. Many SP games have deeper mechanics than MMOs.

Lastly, as i said before, i am not here to change MMOs ... it is the opposite. I am here BECAUSE MMOs are changing to more of my liking.

 

      Nari.. the problem is from where I sit, is that the genre is saturated with games..  There are not enough customers to go around, and why we see more and more F2P games with limited content..  It's the only way to be profitable..  We all know you are like a locus of F2P games and consume all you want.. However, have you ever thought of, or considered what your fellow games might enjoy?  Are you the type of person that constantly yells for more hamburger cafes in your neighborhood, even tho you are already saturated with them, while people that prefer seafood and chicken go hungry?   Isn't that rather selfish? 

     I'm wondering.. are you capable of championing another cause that isn't your private agenda.. or is everyone out for themselves..  And if that is the case why do you often get defensive when others voice their preference?   Just curious..  Example is that I'm not a PvP fan, but I will always ask for and back up those that do for THEIR benefit as well..  Variety is a good thing

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/10/13 1:58:20 PM#135
Originally posted by Rydeson
 

      Nari.. the problem is from where I sit, is that the genre is saturated with games..  There are not enough customers to go around, and why we see more and more F2P games with limited content..  It's the only way to be profitable..  We all know you are like a locus of F2P games and consume all you want.. However, have you ever thought of, or considered what your fellow games might enjoy?  Are you the type of person that constantly yells for more hamburger cafes in your neighborhood, even tho you are already saturated with them, while people that prefer seafood and chicken go hungry?   Isn't that rather selfish? 

     I'm wondering.. are you capable of championing another cause that isn't your private agenda.. or is everyone out for themselves..  And if that is the case why do you often get defensive when others voice their preference?   Just curious..  Example is that I'm not a PvP fan, but I will always ask for and back up those that do for THEIR benefit as well..  Variety is a good thing

"consider what your fellow gamers might enjoy" ... sure. How can i not be considering that when many different preferences are being championed here daily?

"are you capable of championing another cause that isn't your private agenda"? Of course not. I can't champion anyone's else cause with conviction. I am not playing games for other people's fun. i am only doing it for mine. In fact, "champion" is not the right word. I don't champion anything.  i have enough games to play. If MMOs are not trying to cater to me, i won't even be here. I don't need them to change. It seems that they are trying very hard to get me to become a customer. It is more like having some fun expressing myself here, and comment on the state of the market.

 

"why do you often get defensive when others voice their preference?" I don't think so. I fully acknowledge other preferences, and state mine as such, not the "truth" of gaming, unlike some others. Having said that, people are waving their preferences here all day (perma-death, pvp, ....), i don't see why i should not do the same. I have as much right to express my preference, as others.

Yes, variety is a good thing. In fact, the genre is saturated with games ... shows variety .. and hence a good thing.

 

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

 
OP  9/10/13 4:02:24 PM#136


Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by DrCokePepsi


As for this, I could reply with my last answer, I myself am not the grand bookkeeper of game genre parameters, and could simply reword my last response to try and reflect my views, but I myself understand that the MMORPG genre is being wrecked because It's category/genre defining standpoints have been blurred beyond recognition.

I'll recite how the genre should be about exploring a living world and creating another version of yourself in a game to experience the community and explore the world with that community is the general definition of the genre, give or take minor/ medium quantities of change and revolution(all this i mentioned in my original post), but what it has become now is just a poor example of greed in society by the developers and the unfortunate collapse of the genre due to the casual player base claiming their territory in our land.

//


And as for this, Categories my friend. Categories, sub-categories, things have to be classified as something, calling football NOT a genre and then saying it's just governed by sports is incorrect, as football itself is a category (genre) of sports. This is what has happened to gaming, instead of having different sports, the MMORPG's individual category under 'sports' has been blurred to the point where it has just become a generalization of all sports rather than it's own.

and of course i called an MMORPG a sport as an example it is clearly not a sport, this goes to whatever wise-ass who would have pointed this out



So in regards to your first post, you answer the question of what made you the authority actually what defines MMO should be by not actually answering the question. No where in your posts states why your opinion is so highly placed above others (with no real justification), its just your opinion stated over and over again without any supporting argument. It's kind of the meat of debates is the argument (which you have) and the support (which you don't have). There's no basis listed to why MMO's should be the way you stated aside from the fact that you said so. I'll take your lack of answering my question not once but twice as concession to the fact that all of this is purely opinion and what you state isn't fact despite you trying to present it as "fact".


The misperception of greed btw is also derived out of lack of understanding of basic economics, which I'll forgive you for but shouldn't be grounds on your own perceived "destruction of a genre" which is actually flourishing and expanding ever further.


In your regards to your second argument in how genre is actually defined within the video game realm just presents ignorance. Like a politician, your arguing in pure semantics when I merely pointed out an obvious flaw in the poster's argument. The analogy wasn't applied correctly because it wasn't exemplifying a whole genre being redefined. Answer me one question, what genre does NFL Blitz or NBA Jam fall under? It changes rules and doesn't follow the same premise as actual football or basketball but yet its still covered under the same category and genre...sports.


There isn't a football management genre or football genre, otherwise it'll be a genre categorizing literally 3-5 games. I want to think genre is a bit more encompassing than that. Even the sports genre within video games doesn't cover that many games compared to RPG, Action or FPS. So again, the application of that poster's analogy was just wrong and doesn't properly support the argument. Just pointing out a fallacy within the actual logic itself. And quite obviously you have no idea or at least didn't maintain perspective on what I was posting so why respond (to that post) anyway when you totally took it outside of its perspective.



So you just don't understand or see my point and keep reasking the same question though I give you an answer every time? I have plenty of explanation and reasoning to back it up, you simply have to read and try to understand what I'm saying. I'm not going to repeat myself to have you ask again.

And quite simply actually 'NFL' blitz would be designated under football videogame... NBA under basketball? People who like a specific sport wont just walk into Gamestop and ask for a sports videogame. They would want a football or basketball game. MMORPG players don't just want a videogame, they're looking for a specific experience WHICH INCLUDES (here i will repeat myself for the umpteenth time) massive world to explore, skills or attributes to increase to develop your character however you would like, community interactions needed to prevent the game from being played just solely, and the freedom to do what you want. The ability to live out an adventure.

Not some single-player game with other people in your world.

MMORPG's used to be a thing now the word has to be strictly defined or people don't know what they should be.

And I'm not overlooking your posts at all, I actually answer it point by point, it seems to me that you've just thumbed through my posts quickly only to repeat yourself.

  User Deleted
9/10/13 4:16:10 PM#137


Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

So you just don't understand or see my point and keep reasking the same question though I give you an answer every time? I have plenty of explanation and reasoning to back it up, you simply have to read and try to understand what I'm saying. I'm not going to repeat myself to have you ask again.

And quite simply actually 'NFL' blitz would be designated under football videogame... NBA under basketball? People who like a specific sport wont just walk into Gamestop and ask for a sports videogame. They would want a football or basketball game. MMORPG players don't just want a videogame, they're looking for a specific experience WHICH INCLUDES (here i will repeat myself for the umpteenth time) massive world to explore, skills or attributes to increase to develop your character however you would like, community interactions needed to prevent the game from being played just solely, and the freedom to do what you want. The ability to live out an adventure.

Not some single-player game with other people in your world.

MMORPG's used to be a thing now the word has to be strictly defined or people don't know what they should be.

And I'm not overlooking your posts at all, I actually answer it point by point, it seems to me that you've just thumbed through my posts quickly only to repeat yourself.



Well I don't see any support to your argument and I wouldn't be able to post such lengthy responses if I wasn't reading your posts. Simply stating well "this is what MMO players want" is not a support to an argument, that is your own opinion of what YOU think MMO players and the MMO industry should have. There are zero grounds in support to why does an MMO HAVE to be this way or why can't it work the other way? Where is the support for the actual MMO genre being "destroyed" or "declined"? Who's considered an MMO player and who isn't (since you are so adamant at making that distinction that these "non-MMO players" are destroying what you think is YOUR genre when it fact is more like their genre at this point. Again, all you have provided is opinion with little justification to back it up besides "because you said so" justifications


In regards to you not differentiating between a genre of video games and games that fit under a genre I feel like is a lost cause for me to further try and explain to you. If you don't even understand what a genre is within the video game industry then you will never grasp the logic I was trying to explain in my previous post (when I felt a poster's logic was wrong).


If you think football or basketball is an actual genre of video games so be it. I could care less at this point, just help me find the football genre section in my steam please because I been looking for a good football video game. Maybe it's listed under sports....

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/10/13 4:16:16 PM#138

Peeked into this thread to see how it was going and read one post. I shant read any further because I don't think it can get any better than this.

 

"The MMORPG genre is changing due to the larger population, not into a unique genre unlike any other, but it's molding into other genres simply because nobody enjoys specifically MMOs anymore." - DrCokePepsi

"The majority of MMO players now adays are people who don't understand what the genre was meant to be and who cry out on forums like these that these MMOs should be more like their games, completely diminishing the experience that MMO players used to enjoy." - DrCokePepsi

"...instead of catering to that niche group the developers just cater to the entire gaming genre completely removing what defines MMOs." - DrCokePepsi

Instead of not playing MMOs, people nowadays feel like they have the right to just clusterf**k into our genre with a mob of people into entirely different genres and have these games revolve around them." - DrCokePepsi

"Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them." - DrCokePepsi

 

"No where in your posts states why your opinion is so highly placed above others (with no real justification), its just your opinion stated over and over again without any supporting argument. " - Jairoe3



"It's not an opinion." - DrCokePepsi

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

9/10/13 7:34:05 PM#139
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them." - DrCokePepsi

That actually is good advice.

So people who don't like non-massive, solo-able gameply don't have to play modern MMOs. As far as i am concern, i like to solo through story content like that in Marvel Heroes, and i will play it because i like it and can have fun.

 

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6829

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

9/10/13 8:01:47 PM#140

I tried those games early on and the graphics were so bad that i preferred to stick to fps games instead.I don't care what anyone tries to tell me about gameplay>graphics,i am playing video games ,the word VIDEO does not mean gameplay,it means VISUALS.

So since the rpg genres back then offered average game play and poor graphics,i decided the much better game play was in fps and or single players games.

The first time i really got interested in a MMORPG was when FFXI came out,before that i was playing tons of single player,Unreal,UT99,Quake ,Doom ect ect.

SWG was simply horrid looking,it gave the term pixel a bad name,it as so bad i logged out the first day and vowed to never go back.IMO you cannot have fun if everything in a video presentation is poor to the eye.It is the equivalent of going to watch a really great movie then it turns out to be Black n White.You still have that great acting great movie design but yes those visuals do matter and a lot.

After my initial seize on FFXI,EQ2 really set the industry forward,by far the best  graphics and lighting of any MMORPG,i enjoyed it a lot and played for about 2 years straight.Since then i have seen glimpses of good game design but not much game breaking,Vanguard,AOC and now FFXIV with yet even better graphics.

Honestly people that say game play matters are lying because a very high majority are all playing every single game the Exact same way,trying to speed level to end game.So if game play is so great why the rush?You don't go to your favorite ride at a carnival and ask if they can speed up the ride so it is over in 30 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
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