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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why do modern mmos punish grouping?

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  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 866

9/09/13 10:21:44 PM#21

The way modern MMOs punish grouping has to do with LOOT more than it has to do with XP. When you defeat a boss solo you get all the loot for yourself. Solo players have 100% of getting any loot that drops. On the other hand if you duo the mob and it only drops one piece of gear you only have 50% chance of getting it. Defeat the encounter with a 5 man group and now you are down to a 20% chance at loot. Go to 24 man raids and it is down to paltry 4% chance. This low caused the player communities to come up with their own band aid solutions like DKP. However dealing with DKP and associated guild drama has been a turn off to many players. This is why MMORPGs have gone solo centric. It was kind of accidental the way loot divided the player base but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

Vindictus came up with the best solution I have yet seen to this problem. Kill a boss with a 6 man group and it drops 6 pieces of loot. One for each person. As a result of increased loot distribution between group members Vindictus has the best grouping scene I have witnessed in an MMO. It is even better than Everquest 1 grouping which at one time was considered the gold standard for social group play. The new gold standard for a social grouping game is Vindictus.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

9/09/13 10:28:40 PM#22
Originally posted by Novusod

The way modern MMOs punish grouping has to do with LOOT more than it has to do with XP. When you defeat a boss solo you get all the loot for yourself. Solo players have 100% of getting any loot that drops. On the other hand if you duo the mob and it only drops one piece of gear you only have 50% chance of getting it. Defeat the encounter with a 5 man group and now you are down to a 20% chance at loot. Go to 24 man raids and it is down to paltry 4% chance. This low caused the player communities to come up with their own band aid solutions like DKP. However dealing with DKP and associated guild drama has been a turn off to many players. This is why MMORPGs have gone solo centric. It was kind of accidental the way loot divided the player base but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

Vindictus came up with the best solution I have yet seen to this problem. Kill a boss with a 6 man group and it drops 6 pieces of loot. One for each person. As a result of increased loot distribution between group members Vindictus has the best grouping scene I have witnessed in an MMO. It is even better than Everquest 1 grouping which at one time was considered the gold standard for social group play. The new gold standard for a social grouping game is Vindictus.

How  is that different from old MMO's (not vindicatus, just the new mmo statement).  Old mmo's had the exact same set up, except you'd roll a /roll 100 to see who got it. or you waited for your turn at the bat and hoped the peice dropped.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1134

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

9/09/13 10:29:28 PM#23
Originally posted by Bootez

I have never understood this logic. When in a group you get less experience. Why wouldn't they just boost the XP to get people grouping like crazy? 

Seems counter productive to me to create a multiplayer game and then make it not worth while since it isn't the most efficient way to level up. 

If they simply made all dungeons, quests, etc give more XP in a group than solo, these games would be social again and probably a hell of a lot more fun for most people. 

 

I have ALWAYS said it should be a simple incentive formula for grouping:

 

In an 8 member group (using Dark Age as an example):

 

+12.5% for each member of a group, starting with the first player once he/she has invited one other person. 

Hence, 2 players = 25% bonus xp

3 players = 37.5% bonus xp

4 players = 50% bonus xp, and so forth until 8 players = 100% bonus xp.

 

Such a basic formula for grouping.  And yet - what developer will even ponder this as logical.  This is the problem with the genre - such limited common sense and a sickening trail of failed or mediocre mmorpgs since 2004.

 

 

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 866

9/09/13 11:04:18 PM#24
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

How  is that different from old MMO's (not Vindictus, just the new mmo statement).  Old mmo's had the exact same set up, except you'd roll a /roll 100 to see who got it. or you waited for your turn at the bat and hoped the peice dropped.

When you /roll 100 against 6 other people most of the time you walked away empty handed. Under the Vindictus model nobody walks away empty handed. Everyone gets loot. Sitting around and waiting to get lucky just isn't worth anymore since loot comes faster solo in most games and that is where the majority of the player base is.

  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1106

9/09/13 11:10:34 PM#25
Originally posted by Bootez

I have never understood this logic. When in a group you get less experience. Why wouldn't they just boost the XP to get people grouping like crazy? 

Seems counter productive to me to create a multiplayer game and then make it not worth while since it isn't the most efficient way to level up. 

If they simply made all dungeons, quests, etc give more XP in a group than solo, these games would be social again and probably a hell of a lot more fun for most people. 

 

Because they aren't MMOs.  They're single player rpg's with other people running around in the same world as you.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

9/09/13 11:24:11 PM#26
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Bootez

I have never understood this logic. When in a group you get less experience. Why wouldn't they just boost the XP to get people grouping like crazy? 

Seems counter productive to me to create a multiplayer game and then make it not worth while since it isn't the most efficient way to level up. 

If they simply made all dungeons, quests, etc give more XP in a group than solo, these games would be social again and probably a hell of a lot more fun for most people. 

 

I have ALWAYS said it should be a simple incentive formula for grouping:

 

In an 8 member group (using Dark Age as an example):

 

+12.5% for each member of a group, starting with the first player once he/she has invited one other person. 

Hence, 2 players = 25% bonus xp

3 players = 37.5% bonus xp

4 players = 50% bonus xp, and so forth until 8 players = 100% bonus xp.

 

Such a basic formula for grouping.  And yet - what developer will even ponder this as logical.  This is the problem with the genre - such limited common sense and a sickening trail of failed or mediocre mmorpgs since 2004.

 

 

You already get these bonuses naturally due to synergy of the group.  8 players grouped and working together should easily get 100% more xp than 8 players working solo.  Players should be rewarded for working together as a group and not merely for plaing solo while in a group.

  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 740

9/09/13 11:29:11 PM#27

Team Level

Ever wondered what the Team Level in the Team Window actually affected? After a little research through the Official Forums, a post by ARK Regulas from March 2004 provided the answer.

Team level is a bonus given to your team for sticking together. It grants the following:

-Increased chance of disarming a trap/opening a door successfully

-Increased chance of landing nano programs successfully.

-An AMS/DMS (attack and defense) boost

The 2005 Official Game Manual from FC gives the following information:

Teams that stay together for a long period of time get more coordinated, and fight better together. With time their team level increases, and they gain a small bonus to offensive and defensive skills.

The team level starts at 1, and can be no higher than 5. Getting your team level to 5 takes several hours though, and each time a member of the team leaves (or is kicked out), the team level decreases by 1.

The theory of Team Level affecting the percentage of valuable items dropping has never been proven.

---------------------------

http://www.ao-universe.com/index.php?id=14&pid=533

It can be more than just xp :) .

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  npr71570

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/12
Posts: 2

9/09/13 11:48:12 PM#28

HeroesGo is one of those games that discourages grouping.

In dungeon if you team up, you get:

_ Increased mob difficulties per player in the group 

_ Much higher risk of death (difficulty is scaled weirdly due to from the above)

_ Longer clearing time (due to the aboves)

_ Decrease in exp for all players

_ Less loot as this one is not increased and must be shared among all players.

So there you go, if you team up, you'll get less exp, more death (and more repair cost, death involved or not), slower clearing time, and less loot. 

As such, who wants to party?

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

9/09/13 11:54:11 PM#29
Originally posted by Novusod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

How  is that different from old MMO's (not Vindictus, just the new mmo statement).  Old mmo's had the exact same set up, except you'd roll a /roll 100 to see who got it. or you waited for your turn at the bat and hoped the peice dropped.

When you /roll 100 against 6 other people most of the time you walked away empty handed. Under the Vindictus model nobody walks away empty handed. Everyone gets loot. Sitting around and waiting to get lucky just isn't worth anymore since loot comes faster solo in most games and that is where the majority of the player base is.

Yes.  I get that, and Vindictus sounds really.  But you said that new MMO's only gave a chance for someone to get the loot, then said the benefits of vindictus.

So my question was old mmo's do that as well, the same as your new mmo's statement, so whats the difference then between old and new?  Not between vindictus and all the others.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  ropenice

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

9/10/13 12:12:18 AM#30
I believe the OP has a good point but just stated it in a bad way to make point. If you just look at gaining xp, grouping was way more efficient than soloing, while more modern games the xp discrepancy between solo or group is very close, instead of tilted enough to encourage grouping. In EQ for example, soloing was very difficult. Many classes couldn't do it well, or at all, at higher levels and it was usually slow going, with long mana breaks. You couldn't solo most bosses for better loot solo. Grouping gave better xp and with the speed of taking down mobs, most chose to group because the game mechanics rewarded it enough. With xp being so close now, solo and group, many don't want to wait to form group or put in time or effort to start or maintain a group. It's not the only reason grouping is less used but mechanics can create the atmosphere for grouping.
  TheCrow2k

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 956

9/10/13 12:34:22 AM#31
It is generally because games are geared toward balance of progression for solo players. Because of this players who group up tear through content & level "too quickly".

Group centric MMO's used to make solo leveling a lot slower & then when grouped you leveled faster sheerly by faster progression through areas & killing mobs faster.

So yes sadly solo centric MMO's are to blame.
  Konfess

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 737

9/10/13 12:56:34 AM#32

I have been explaining this for the past 15 years.  What the OP is talking about is the tendency for MMOs to split XP over the group.  If a Mob is worth 100 xp to a solo player, then that same mob is worth 100xp / 4 to a single player in a group of four.

 

What the OP and millions of players that can't do the math fail to realize is that in a group you blow through content at a faster rate.  This faster rate makes grouping far superior to solo game play and doesn't punish grouping.  This is why every player that power levels to level cap does so in a group.

 

In the same time ( 1 hour ) that a solo player completes 1 quest (200 xp) and kills 5 mobs  (5 x 100xp)for that quest and earns 700 xp.  The group of four does 10 quests (10 x 200 xp) and kills 200 mobs (200 x 100xp/4) and each players earns 7.000 xp.

 

If it takes that solo player 12 months to reach level cap, it takes that group of four 1.2 moths to reach level cap.  But really it takes that group 3 months.  Why?  Because they also have time to do their homework, go to their min-wage jobs, earn a little money, and take their girlfriend to the movies on Friday nights.  They do all of that and still make it to level cap before the solo player making full xp on mobs.

 

Groups finish zones faster and move on to higher level zones faster than solo players.  Groups Get better gear first, before solo players can get it.  Ever notice that quest mobs drop gear 6 to 4 levels below them?  Most players call this Vendor Trash, because they solo these mobs at the mobs level or greater.  This looted gear is useless.  But the group players are doing these quest at 8 to 6 levels below the mobs.  So the gear is still useful to them.  These same groups are running dungeons long before the solo player.  They run it multiple time and equip each member with blue items.

 

Group level faster and make XP faster.  They acquire items faster, take less damage, and make money faster.  You can solo any game, but it will take longer, and be harder to do.

Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
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  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1175

9/10/13 1:08:41 AM#33

If it matters any KRPGs have gone through one by one taking up the task of rectifying such backwards thinking. Of some of the more recent ones give additional exp to groups are Dragon Nest, Vindictus, and Blade and Soul. I'm all for abolishing the split exp syndrome of game design, it never made sense.

Why did split exp ever exist, it never made sense.

  Bootez

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  9/10/13 1:14:27 AM#34

I definitely see a lot of good points in this thread. But for games like WoW, or GW2, or Rift, or even the terrible SWTOR, the solo focused play is still very dominant. The slight extra xp from grouping isn't enough to make the majority of players want to team. GW2, there is no incentive at all since it is based on tagging mobs. Once you get into exploration mode dungeons, teaming is something more important. But general level progression? Why bother teaming?

Yes, a group, even with split xp, will kill mobs faster and net a bit more xp, but it still isn't enough to make it the main route. It's very rare to see "LFG XP Farm" in chat for a modern mmo. Actually, I don't think I've since it in anything after WoW. Dungeons, yes. But grouping for quests of hunting parties? Sadly I haven't.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

9/10/13 1:16:05 AM#35

As a solo player, I've never encountered an MMO where I've felt like I had an advantage over grouped players (except for a few rare bottlenecks where there aren't enough mobs to go around)

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

9/10/13 2:07:22 AM#36
Originally posted by Boneserino

Lets not forget the phenomenom called the "Power Leveller"!

If there is one thing I hate in MMO's these days it is this guy.   You know the guy who starts at level 1 and immediately wants to group with you so that he can do level 50 content in a group while achieving ridiculous amounts of experience points as well as skipping the majority of low level game content.  

And he does all this just so he can get to endgame and complain that there is not enough content to keep him amused.

But aside from that I agree with most here, in that I don't really see grouping being punished in the games I have played.   If grouping isn't necessay to do the content then generally there is always some bonus offered as incentive to group.  But it shouldn't be excessive as other have stated.

Well powerleveling still happens for sure (every time WOW releases a new expansion, it's a grouping player who hits max level first) but what you're describing hasn't happened in MMORPGs for years, maybe even a decade.

I think Asheron's Call is the only MMORPG where a level 1 player could actually benefit from lugging alongside a level 50 player, and actually earn rewards for doing so (and I'm not even sure how good that was; I might just be mixing it up with the vassal system.)

Arguably you could do something similar in City of Heroes too, but that game maintained the difficulty with its sidekick system. Basically you would have the stats (health/damage/etc) of a level 50 player, earn rewards about equal to your own level's content, but lack any of the higher-level abilities.  So it was actually a bit harder (considerably harder in some cases) to do the level 50 content while sidekicked up, but it wasn't so hard that you weren't a worthwhile group mate.  Because MMORPGs should let friends play together, you know?

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

9/10/13 2:10:44 AM#37
Originally posted by ropenice
I believe the OP has a good point but just stated it in a bad way to make point. If you just look at gaining xp, grouping was way more efficient than soloing, while more modern games the xp discrepancy between solo or group is very close, instead of tilted enough to encourage grouping. In EQ for example, soloing was very difficult. Many classes couldn't do it well, or at all, at higher levels and it was usually slow going, with long mana breaks. You couldn't solo most bosses for better loot solo. Grouping gave better xp and with the speed of taking down mobs, most chose to group because the game mechanics rewarded it enough. With xp being so close now, solo and group, many don't want to wait to form group or put in time or effort to start or maintain a group. It's not the only reason grouping is less used but mechanics can create the atmosphere for grouping.

Thats the thing though it wasn't that way in the genre as a whole, just in EQ.  In UO you could solo well, in SWG you could solo well, in AC you could solo well. Just in EQ it was harder.

So since the genre wasn't that way in the past, why do they want to be that way now all the while saying it changed to be more solo?  It doesn't make sense, it was always solo friendly, just one game wasn't and they are claiming the whole genre was like that.  It wasn't... just one game.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2344

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

9/10/13 9:11:23 AM#38
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Axehilt
Which ones punish grouping?  Nearly all the MMORPGs I've played over the years provide a slight XP buff to groups.

 

Sometimes it's not enough to make it worth grouping, but usually it's pretty close.  For example, throughout WOW's lifespan it's kinda bounced back and forth with updates (sometimes it's been way faster to solo, sometimes about even, and sometimes it's been the fastest way to level.)

Certainly I'd agree it's best when grouping provides a slight advantage to overall progression.




The problem is that people expect group xp to be considerably faster than going solo. There is an advantage to groups, but often it's in the group's ability to work together to kill things faster. If the group doesn't work together as a group, or if everyone has different quests or something, then they think that grouping has been nerfed.

 

That's the key.  A group that consistently works together will get a nice xp boost from grouping.  PUG's, on the other hand, are often chaotic making solo a more efficient choice.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19830

9/10/13 11:29:44 AM#39
Originally posted by Hrimnir

 

Because they aren't MMOs.  They're single player rpg's with other people running around in the same world as you.

Yeh. Many MMOs are not massive. The market seem to like single player RPG with other people running around better.

May as well change the meaning of "MMO", unless you can get the whole industry to adopt a new label.

 

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

9/10/13 12:12:40 PM#40
I don't know any MMOs that are actively discouraging grouping, but I do think there is a passive de-emphasis on grouping that results from the modern emphasis on solo play.  Group play still has benefits in most cases in speed alone if nothing else, but today, those benefits may not be sufficient to lure players away from the vastly-improved solo play that most games sport.
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