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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why waste time with useless loot?

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  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11913

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/08/13 12:58:30 PM#21
Originally posted by Morrok

But vendor trash is all BUT useless.

As was said above, it's another form of gold/plat that drops off mobs.
And as such QUITE useful!

 

It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become, that the majority in this thread can only see this in a binary manner - the presence or absence of junk loot - unaware that the same goals can be reached with loot that actually serves a purpose in the context of the game. Don't buy into the diseased rat's liver franchise. It's a sinister plot! :)

 

  Konfess

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 695

9/08/13 1:10:36 PM#22

Vendor Trash (VT) is there as part of the overall balance of the game.  When you don't make use of VT you are throwing off the multiple tiers of game balance. 

  1. Game Economy : as part of the anti-gold farming, anti-botting campaign VT is introduced to ensure that the economy flows at a rate to support the character with out having to resort to either buying gold or farming items.  The dumbing down of game is in direct result to gamers not taking full advantage of the economic tools provided by the Devs.
  2. Player Distribution & Network Stability : Devs plan for a near uniform distribution of players across their server architecture.  When this doesn't happen due to player divergent play style, we see Network failure as a result. 
  3. Breakfast :  I was going to write more, but it seems everyone here is waiting on me so we can go out to breakfast.  And football isn't going to watch itself.
 
If something is put in a game it serves a purpose.  Just because you can't or won't realize that is not the fault of the game.  It is yours.  Don't blame casual gamers for the faults with modern MMOs.  Re-read your posts, all of them and realize that you are the fault for everything you don't like in MMO.  When I complain that all gamers want in a game is exploits, I am not being mean or trolling.  I'm being accurate.

Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11913

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/08/13 1:41:54 PM#23
Originally posted by Konfess

Vendor Trash (VT) is there as part of the overall balance of the game.  When you don't make use of VT you are throwing off the multiple tiers of game balance. 

  1. Game Economy : as part of the anti-gold farming, anti-botting campaign VT is introduced to ensure that the economy flows at a rate to support the character with out having to resort to either buying gold or farming items.  The dumbing down of game is in direct result to gamers not taking full advantage of the economic tools provided by the Devs.
  2. Player Distribution & Network Stability : Devs plan for a near uniform distribution of players across their server architecture.  When this doesn't happen due to player divergent play style, we see Network failure as a result. 
  3. Breakfast :  I was going to write more, but it seems everyone here is waiting on me so we can go out to breakfast.  And football isn't going to watch itself.
 
If something is put in a game it serves a purpose.  Just because you can't or won't realize that is not the fault of the game.  It is yours.  Don't blame casual gamers for the faults with modern MMOs.  Re-read your posts, all of them and realize that you are the fault for everything you don't like in MMO.  When I complain that all gamers want in a game is exploits, I am not being mean or trolling.  I'm being accurate.

No one is saying it doesn't serve a design purpose or that they don't understand why devs created it. The OP presents the case that it is currently serves no use to the player other than just, well.. junk to sell.

  Aines

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/09/08
Posts: 42

9/08/13 2:00:59 PM#24
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Morrok

But vendor trash is all BUT useless.

As was said above, it's another form of gold/plat that drops off mobs.
And as such QUITE useful!

 

It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become, that the majority in this thread can only see this in a binary manner - the presence or absence of junk loot - unaware that the same goals can be reached with loot that actually serves a purpose in the context of the game. Don't buy into the diseased rat's liver franchise. It's a sinister plot! :)

 

I think that the topic of the thread changed a bit. OP considers that some dropped items are useless. This is not how all of us view them.

  Hedeon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/05
Posts: 904

9/08/13 2:02:35 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Morrok

But vendor trash is all BUT useless.

As was said above, it's another form of gold/plat that drops off mobs.
And as such QUITE useful!

 

It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become, that the majority in this thread can only see this in a binary manner - the presence or absence of junk loot - unaware that the same goals can be reached with loot that actually serves a purpose in the context of the game. Don't buy into the diseased rat's liver franchise. It's a sinister plot! :)

 

would love if the NPCs actually would make comments like this in games, oh god no, no more of those livers, cant you just grind them and make a paté or something! ><

anyway trash loot is just there to give people a feeling that they gain something from killing stuff - some gold added to your account which you hardly notice doesnt really give this feeling, and ofc to waste peoples time...

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/08/13 2:07:45 PM#26


Originally posted by Quizzical
If the goal is to give players gold, then why not give players gold?


As was also said above: immersion.
It doesn't make much sense that a rat carries gold pieces around, but it makes some sense that a NPC would be willing to pay for the rat's whiskers or tails, if only as a proof of extermination.
(Think of the skalping practice in the wild west, or the cutting off ears)

Same for a goblin (or other mobs):
Such a creature might carry some equipment that is crude to you, and perhaps have a different monetary/barter system (think salt or sea shells or stones that were used for currency in some parts of the world, but being totally useless to the conquistadores).
But the goblin's beads might be worth something for someone.

I mean, why did euopeans in the 19th century pay big money for mummies only to unwrap them at a party?
Think that the egyptian grave robber much cared WHY got his money instead that he simply cared THAT he got it?

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/08/13 2:23:03 PM#27


Originally posted by Loktofeit
It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become


*sigh*
And it's quite interesting too how easily some people try to elevate themselves above others by using terms like "become wow'd".
It'd almost have earned you a block from my side had you not followed up by the next post where you at least make a tangible point that shows where your misinterpretation comes from:

Originally posted by Loktofeit
The OP presents the case that it is currently serves no use to the player other than just, well.. junk to sell.


I haven't seen the OP make such a claim.
What i saw is "Shouldn't by now all loot be useful in someway to use at least for crafting?".
And my answer to that is: why?
Would it really make sense for EVERY item to have a use in crafting?
Or wouldn't exactly THAT mean "just to help sell bag slots?" yas the OP claimed?

I mean, if it's useful for crafting, wouldn't you keep it anyways, to either work with your own chars on that tradeskill or to sell it to other players?
Where's the difference to selling to a vendor if you're going to sell it anyways?
And if you keep it, what's the OP's point?
After all, vendor trash gets sold off right at the next possible NPC (or the NPC that pays the most if there's a difference).


Again:
Vendor trash isn't "useless".

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/08/13 2:29:19 PM#28

Test your dev staff and ask them.

"Hey, is there any way you can make autoloot ignore grey items?"

If they're an intended time sink, that answer will always be some variation of "no", with or without a plausible-sounding smokescreen.

 

Oh, wait, modern MMOs, you can't ask a dev anything and get an answer, in most cases. Sorry bout that.

Of course, you could always think of it as an EvilEmpire plot, intended to force you into crafting/buying/acquiring bigger bags regularly.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/08/13 3:09:36 PM#29
  SoulStain

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/12
Posts: 204

9/08/13 3:32:37 PM#30
Originally posted by Morrok

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=24

I don't mind vendor trash. I hate more the fact that in most MMOs...when you're sent to get "x" number of "y" body parts of animal "z". That animal "z" may actually be lacking that particular and sometimes very vital body part..

My prime example would be in pre-Cata WOW. There was a quest to get a shit-load of skulls from the Hillsbrad Farmers. Yet apparently...many didn't have skulls.I know I would've taken care not to strike the skull so it would not be destroyed during my blood thirsty assault . I can only conclude that they are apparently a community long perpetuated by inbreeding. So long that many are born sans-skull. I Imagine a bunch of floppy-headed farmers stumbling aimlessly as one non-socketed eye looks this way and another looks that way..their brain sloshing around inside their skin-bag noggin like a gigantic, lone testicle wearing a straw hat (which would , for obvious reasons, always fall off)

I guess imagination gets me through stupid stuff like this and useless loot.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1000

 
OP  9/08/13 4:04:59 PM#31

How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

 

Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

 

My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1053

9/08/13 4:20:09 PM#32
Originally posted by Hedeon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Morrok

But vendor trash is all BUT useless.

As was said above, it's another form of gold/plat that drops off mobs.
And as such QUITE useful!

 

It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become, that the majority in this thread can only see this in a binary manner - the presence or absence of junk loot - unaware that the same goals can be reached with loot that actually serves a purpose in the context of the game. Don't buy into the diseased rat's liver franchise. It's a sinister plot! :)

 

would love if the NPCs actually would make comments like this in games, oh god no, no more of those livers, cant you just grind them and make a paté or something! ><

anyway trash loot is just there to give people a feeling that they gain something from killing stuff - some gold added to your account which you hardly notice doesnt really give this feeling, and ofc to waste peoples time...

In some games the loot is merely a metagame stand-in for XP or money.   I think of it as a shallow gamification.   When a chicken drops a staff, it messes with my sense of immersion.  Unless it was a big chicken.  And it was beating me with a staff.

 

A lot of it just comes down to developer conveniance.  I imagine it  is far more difficult to design a quasi-working economy, where the wolf you killed can be harvested for saleable, useable parts (if you have the proper hunting style skills), with or without the player crafter element. 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1053

9/08/13 4:25:47 PM#33
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

 

Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

 

My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

Problem there is, you can actually sell lion's teeth.  Same with eagle or owl feathers, or a sawfish snout.  Or bird's nests.  That's real world.  Now, without an actual skill in preparing carcasses, you'd have difficulty getting anything but the simplest elements (teeth or feathers, for example).  So it's not an unreasonable idea at all, unless presented in an unreasonable manner.  (Like, exactly why DO they want those monkey butts?)   Just take a look at the trade in animal parts to the Asian market for some pretty unusual examples.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Vrika

Elite Member

Joined: 10/03/05
Posts: 1989

9/08/13 4:30:08 PM#34
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer? 

It represents the idea of obtaining something valuable from the corpse, and the selling that thing, much better than gold just magically materializing into your pocket after you make the kill.

It's also more rewarding to get some item, and then sell it to earn gold, than just having your gold stat raise by n points after successful kill.

If you don't like it, I'm sorry. But there are people who honestly like it.

 

But since you seem to want crafting -related loot (at least in your OP post), I'd like to make an attack at your point of view too: In most of the games, high level players are all superheroes who have saved the world several times over. Isn't it completely unrealistic, that they'd be bothered to craft and barter themselves. They'd just sell all their loot to some trusted friend, who'd do the boring job of crafting and trading for them, while they do the more important world-saving business. All crafting loot should be removed in favor of vendor trash, because world's best fighters crafting and bartering crafting materials is unrealistic and breaks immersion.

  Morrok

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/08
Posts: 132

9/08/13 6:03:36 PM#35


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?


Excuse me for quoting myself:

Originally posted by Morrok
I mean, why did euopeans in the 19th century pay big money for mummies only to unwrap them at a party?
Think that the egyptian grave robber much cared WHY got his money instead that he simply cared THAT he got it?

So your OP is about vendor trash after all?
And that you don't like it, but want (at least) crafting items instead?

Very well, can't blame you for your preferences.
It's not mine though, as i said, i do not call vendor trash "useless".

I do not find it "better" if the mob dropped plat right away either, just to save me the trip to the vendor (which i will look up anyways to restock food+drink and expendables).

If the mobs would drop crafting items INSTEAD of vendor trash, wouldn't that merely inflate (and thus devalue) the crafting?
(as an example, look at all the poison-drops that drop off mobs since EQ has changed the mob's loot tables into something "global")

  generals3

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/04
Posts: 3306

9/08/13 6:06:04 PM#36
Originally posted by Vrika
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer? 

It represents the idea of obtaining something valuable from the corpse, and the selling that thing, much better than gold just magically materializing into your pocket after you make the kill.

It's also more rewarding to get some item, and then sell it to earn gold, than just having your gold stat raise by n points after successful kill.

If you don't like it, I'm sorry. But there are people who honestly like it.

 

But since you seem to want crafting -related loot (at least in your OP post), I'd like to make an attack at your point of view too: In most of the games, high level players are all superheroes who have saved the world several times over. Isn't it completely unrealistic, that they'd be bothered to craft and barter themselves. They'd just sell all their loot to some trusted friend, who'd do the boring job of crafting and trading for them, while they do the more important world-saving business. All crafting loot should be removed in favor of vendor trash, because world's best fighters crafting and bartering crafting materials is unrealistic and breaks immersion.

It is only unrealistic if you want it to be. And if the loot was all craftable nobody would force you to actually craft anything. Consequently your immersion is not broken. And what's so unbelievable about crafting heroes? (didn't spiderman make his own web shooting device) And what about non-world-saving-heroes crafters? (not everyone farms end-game raids)

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

9/08/13 6:19:12 PM#37

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if games went the complete opposite direction - when I loot a dungeon, there's a part of me that  wants to loot a dungeon, right down to the rusty nails.  It appeases my inner hoarder to sit down after an eventure and sift through a great pile of odds and ends for collectables, additions to my library, quest clues while sorting everything else into recycling bins.

I'm frustrated when there's *nothing* I can do with items and have to just manually junk them, but even just dumping a pile of stuff onto a vendor for a few coins feels far from useless.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11913

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/08/13 6:55:39 PM#38
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

Problem there is, you can actually sell lion's teeth.  Same with eagle or owl feathers, or a sawfish snout.  Or bird's nests.  That's real world. 

Yes, there are people somewhere in the world that will buy them. It's usually not the baker or the tailor, though.
See, you're starting to get at the OP's point.  If players are going to have to collect monkey butts, spider eyelashes and ratman navel lint, then having some use for them in the game world

  • - the alchemist NPC creates potions from it
  • - you can pulverize them into powder/serum/etc for potions
  • - the trophysmith makes things from them (maybe even a trophy of your kill!)

A reason or use for them would be nice. Context would be nice. The items would then be something more than "junk" loot.

 

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

9/08/13 7:05:49 PM#39

I've been playing an MMORPG on my phone recently called Celes Arca Online.  Every item in the game is used for crafting and there's no such thing as junk loot.  The only things that actually drop equipment in the game are bosses that can drop cosmetic headgear.  Every other enemy in the game drops a bunch of miscellaneous items that are used for crafting, upgrading and remaking equipment.  

It's a cool system and all but there's a reason MMORPG's have junk loot.  You can't really go with the useful loot route if you don't want your game to be focused on crafting.  The junk loot drops are just there to keep you interested/occupied between rare/magical item drops.  Would you be happier if every junk/white item in a game was removed and you only found one rare item drop every couple hours and nothing else?  It kind of helps with the feeling of progression when you see that you're obtaining items (useless or not).

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11913

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/08/13 7:06:10 PM#40
Originally posted by Icewhite

Test your dev staff and ask them.

"Hey, is there any way you can make autoloot ignore grey items?"

"You know what we don't have in our game? Junk loot. Can we put that on the table for the next expansion?"

*jots down idea for an April Fool's Day devblog*

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