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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 10 thinks MUDs did right in the mid-80s, that your MMO never has.

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45 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

 
OP  9/07/13 1:28:51 PM#1
I hate ‘good old days’ threads. But another player asked me to make one, here goes:
  1. Timely development; more content turned out, by much tinier staffs, in a quarter the time. We did not have to wait for the Animators to create a new /emote that was fine-tuned for every race and sex. A new verb was a matter of hours (sometimes delayed by QC for days or weeks, of course). A new critter did not require models and textures.
  2. Personal. How many of your GMs have you met and shook hands or had a drink with?
  3. Standards. Players were ejected and accounts canceled for misbehaviors of various varieties. Consequences existed.
  4. Events. We could throw together an invasion in minutes or a major merchant event in a few months. Had entire teams dedicated to doing so, in fact.
  5. Interaction. MUD GMs weren’t hidden behind a wall of lawyers. You could speak to one of them, on the forums, every day of the year. Customer Experience GMs, or even Devs answered tickets In minutes, rather than days.
  6. Scale. Your corporation insists on a player/staff ratio on the order of 50k:1…and your services have been greatly reduced throughout the lifetime of MMOs.
  7. Text. Deep lore, full descriptions, able to be played on a 1200 (or even 300) baud modem, no “lag” to speak of, the term did not even exist yet. Players could/had to type!
  8. Imagination—yours; the finest ‘graphics engine’ that could ever be marketed. You want unique items? We created them to request, several times a year. Remember character customization, what’s the last mmo that really took a stab at that (CoX?)
  9. Roleplay—yeah, sorry, you don’t got it, and haven’t had it for many years.
  10. Community—ditto.

All this being said-No, I’m really not pining.

I live in 2013, not 1987. Adapt and overcome.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/07/13 1:53:11 PM#2

* Throws Blue Shell *
which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'"

:-)

**

Reading about MUDs makes me wish that I had not spent so much time out in the world getting into trouble. I would have constantly thought of ways of adding graphics to the MUDs, but I think I would have really enjoyed them, maybe even contributed stuff or made one of my own.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2205

9/07/13 3:11:29 PM#3
Originally posted by lizardbones

* Throws Blue Shell *
which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'"

:-)

**

+1, I thought, whattheheck, let's check it, maybe he wanted to write "10 things" and "mid-90s" :) (but ofc there could've been MUDs in the '80s as well, I dunno since I was just into Speccy and C-64 back then)

 

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

9/07/13 3:14:56 PM#4

I know the point this thread is supposed to make but it's not even the same genre anymore.  I also enjoyed Return of Hercules on my Atari 800 and Crush Crumbe and Chop game that was on a tape cassette that took over 30 minutes to load.  Pharoah's Curse or Mountain King or Realms of Impossibility.  But  it's really beyond the point since MUDs are not even comparable to the genre anymore.

 

But I think many gamers are talking about the divergent path MMORPG's have taken.  MMORPG's have done little beyond emulating a game from 2004 while slowly stripping what many players liked in MMORPGs.  This is why you see so many threads about the other ideas that were mostly killed off at certain point in the development of MMORPG's.  Many of the games we play today are stuck in 2004 with attempts to capture an audience that probably doesn't even exist.  

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1188

9/07/13 3:18:33 PM#5

"Never"

Any facts to back this up?

 

Also "sorry, you don't got it" come on now, are you even trying?

 

 

This is a bait thread.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/07/13 3:31:56 PM#6


Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by lizardbones * Throws Blue Shell * which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'" :-) **
+1, I thought, whattheheck, let's check it, maybe he wanted to write "10 things" and "mid-90s" :) (but ofc there could've been MUDs in the '80s as well, I dunno since I was just into Speccy and C-64 back then)

 

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)




Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford.

Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Angzt

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/07
Posts: 233

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional."(Bob Monkhouse)

9/07/13 3:57:12 PM#7
Originally posted by Icewhite
I hate ‘good old days’ threads. But another player asked me to make one, here goes:
  1. Timely development; more content turned out, by much tinier staffs, in a quarter the time. We did not have to wait for the Animators to create a new /emote that was fine-tuned for every race and sex. A new verb was a matter of hours (sometimes delayed by QC for days or weeks, of course). A new critter did not require models and textures.
  2. Personal. How many of your GMs have you met and shook hands or had a drink with?
  3. Standards. Players were ejected and accounts canceled for misbehaviors of various varieties. Consequences existed.
  4. Events. We could throw together an invasion in minutes or a major merchant event in a few months. Had entire teams dedicated to doing so, in fact.
  5. Interaction. MUD GMs weren’t hidden behind a wall of lawyers. You could speak to one of them, on the forums, every day of the year. Customer Experience GMs, or even Devs answered tickets In minutes, rather than days.
  6. Scale. Your corporation insists on a player/staff ratio on the order of 50k:1…and your services have been greatly reduced throughout the lifetime of MMOs.
  7. Text. Deep lore, full descriptions, able to be played on a 1200 (or even 300) baud modem, no “lag” to speak of, the term did not even exist yet. Players could/had to type!
  8. Imagination—yours; the finest ‘graphics engine’ that could ever be marketed. You want unique items? We created them to request, several times a year. Remember character customization, what’s the last mmo that really took a stab at that (CoX?)
  9. Roleplay—yeah, sorry, you don’t got it, and haven’t had it for many years.
  10. Community—ditto.

All this being said-No, I’m really not pining.

I live in 2013, not 1987. Adapt and overcome.

@1: it's much easier to enter a text line than a whole animation + graphic set

@2: that's a game feature? seriously?

@3: happened in mmos (RP servers and whatnot).

@4: happened. in neocron actually that didnt happen rarely.

@5: not true. you actually seem to be comparing the big company's mmos to old muds, not mmos in general.

@6: are you even making a point here?

@7: there are masses of texts even in WoW. no point here again.

@8: so, how many books did you read lately, and how many movies you watched? ^^ just saying.

@9: there are RP server even for WoW ^^ some handle those rules scrictly others don't

@10: community? how many muds you played had a community over 300 people ^^

"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid… and i did it anyway!"

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

9/07/13 4:04:43 PM#8
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by lizardbones * Throws Blue Shell * which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'" :-) **
+1, I thought, whattheheck, let's check it, maybe he wanted to write "10 things" and "mid-90s" :) (but ofc there could've been MUDs in the '80s as well, I dunno since I was just into Speccy and C-64 back then)

 

 

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)




Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford.

Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.

 

 

The was the Sierra Network was around the late 80's or early 90's.  I used to play it sometimes but it was pretty expensive if I remember correctly and mostly my brothers and my cousins who are 10 years or more older than me played that.  

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/07/13 4:13:14 PM#9


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by lizardbones * Throws Blue Shell * which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'" :-) **
+1, I thought, whattheheck, let's check it, maybe he wanted to write "10 things" and "mid-90s" :) (but ofc there could've been MUDs in the '80s as well, I dunno since I was just into Speccy and C-64 back then)     For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)
Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford. Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.  
 

The was the Sierra Network was around the late 80's or early 90's.  I used to play it sometimes but it was pretty expensive if I remember correctly and mostly my brothers and my cousins who are 10 years or more older than me played that.  




Oh yeah. Hourly charges anyone?

* looks up stuff in Wikipedia *

Holy cats, they sold the whole thing for $100M by 1994. Talk about something making money in the 'old days'.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1119

9/07/13 4:18:41 PM#10
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by lizardbones * Throws Blue Shell * which says, "You misspelled 'Things' as 'Thinks'" :-) **
+1, I thought, whattheheck, let's check it, maybe he wanted to write "10 things" and "mid-90s" :) (but ofc there could've been MUDs in the '80s as well, I dunno since I was just into Speccy and C-64 back then)

 

 

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)




Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford.

Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.

 

I was playing MUDS on my C-64 in the early 80s thru Quantum -Link .. was great fun ..

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

9/07/13 4:36:03 PM#11

A lot of the items in the list seems to come down to the fact that there was a much blurier line in the MUD days between admins and players, between producer and consumer.  I see echos of that those old communities in the way modern minecraft servers are run.

 

( disclaimer: I don't have a lot of personal experience with MUDs; my social group ~20 years ago included a lot of people who were deep into both playing and building them but my impressions are still almost all second hand )

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1179

9/07/13 4:51:17 PM#12
Originally posted by Po_gg
....

.....

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)

Yep, it allowed for all sorts of interesting convolution.

 

I give the sandbox set some grief over their idealized memories and expectations, but being able to make a real change in the game world is a fine thing.  I think it is just easier to do on a smaller scale.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

9/07/13 5:05:13 PM#13
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by Po_gg
....

.....

For the OP, great list. Chris had the column on MUDs earlier (Back to the roots) where I commented, my favourite parts of that era was the easy modding and the constant GM presence - most of your 10 points is based on these two things :)

Yep, it allowed for all sorts of interesting convolution.

 

I give the sandbox set some grief over their idealized memories and expectations, but being able to make a real change in the game world is a fine thing.  I think it is just easier to do on a smaller scale.

 

I think lack of a true GM is a big disappointment in the genre.  I always imagined that we would have dungeon masters and active developer minds behind the NPC factions.  If we had had more sandbox games maybe the tools and sets to allow GM's to be more personal with the community would exist. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

 
OP  9/08/13 6:28:50 AM#14
Originally posted by lizardbones
Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford.

Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.

 

Yes, dialup. MUDs evolved a bit over time too--first direct connections (via Procomm) then services GEnie...then AOL...later internet.

Anyway, let it die and leave the past in the past. Aborting the whole point of 'good ole days' threads.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2890

There... are... four... lights!

9/08/13 6:48:02 AM#15
Great signature, Icewhite. Not sure if you changed it recently or if I was too busy reading the posts to notice the signature, but it really says it all.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Gorilla

Old School

Joined: 6/07/04
Posts: 2218

9/08/13 7:01:14 AM#16
One of the big things was much smaller communities. Pretty much everyone was known to e everyone. I think there is a point (number) where it all starts to become impersonal simply because of scale. It's like living in a city or a small town. Actually that's a good analogy, especially when this virtual city has few laws or codes of conduct. Social fabric gets stretched and even broken, that's one if the reasons PvP proves so difficult in these larger communities but on the whole worked in MUDs.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2890

There... are... four... lights!

9/08/13 7:06:30 AM#17
Originally posted by Gorilla
One of the big things was much smaller communities. Pretty much everyone was known to e everyone. I think there is a point (number) where it all starts to become impersonal simply because of scale. It's like living in a city or a small town. Actually that's a good analogy, especially when this virtual city has few laws or codes of conduct. Social fabric gets stretched and even broken, that's one if the reasons PvP proves so difficult in these larger communities but on the whole worked in MUDs.

That was true even in earlier MMORPGs like UO or AC1. On my AC1 servers, everyone knew each other - we knew the nice guys, the event organizers, and also the scum and the cheaters/hackers/bot users. For sure, it was kinda nice.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3463

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/08/13 7:26:32 AM#18


Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by lizardbones
Some form of MUD definitely existed in the 80s. It would require connecting to a BBS instead of the internet though. The limit was mostly in the number of phone lines and modems the person running the BBS could afford. Dunno if IceWhite is actually referring to the 80s or not.

Yes, dialup. MUDs evolved a bit over time too--first direct connections (via Procomm) then services GEnie...then AOL...later internet.

Anyway, let it die and leave the past in the past. Aborting the whole point of 'good ole days' threads.



I get the point, but the difference for me is... If you desire to play a MUD again, can you? Are there still MUDs for you to enjoy when (or if) you get the itch?

Old MMOs were not perfect,by any standard. But there was something there that has been lost through the years. If a player has a hankering for that kind of game, where do they go for it?

For me, this is no comparison. MUDders can still play their MUDs whenever they get the itch. Old MMORPGers do not have that luxury. Watching a genre become a cheap imitation of what it once was makes me fight harder to NOT "just accept it and move on." MMOs may not have any standards anymore, but this player does. Once I lower that standard, the genre is lost to me.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

 
OP  9/08/13 9:15:43 AM#19
Originally posted by AlBQuirky
I get the point, but the difference for me is... If you desire to play a MUD again, can you? Are there still MUDs for you to enjoy when (or if) you get the itch?

Sure. Just like the 'old classic' MMOs haven't gone away, they are still there for anyone who wants to put their car in reverse.

^ See Above. Old MMOs were not perfect,by any standard. But there was something there that has been lost through the years. If a player has a hankering for that kind of game, where do they go for it?

You do not have to keep requesting that MMOs come to a dead stop and re-make what has already been made--that's still out there!! (well, except SWG and CoX, but there are revival projects in player's hands for those, too).

MUDders can still play their MUDs whenever they get the itch. Old MMORPGers do not have that luxury.

Did we miss the "classic" DAoC servers, or EQ's project 1999 (or whatever it's called)?

Yes, time did not stop. Yes, the developers probably (always??!?) made some decisions that individual players haaaaate. Trammel, ToA, NGE, the whole whining ball of wax.

Entropy always increases. You can't get the same G.I. Joe you played with as a kid, either (well, you can, for a few hundred bucks). Living with nostalgia does have some costs, generally.

For MMO players, the cost seems to be buying game after game searching for the "first time" thrill again. Perpetual Mid-Life crisis, buying the new red sports car over and over and over and over...

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3463

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/08/13 9:08:53 PM#20

Ice, you seem to think I want ALL MMOs to be made in some specific way. I don't think I have ever come across as wanting that, though I could be mistaken. I don't want every MMO in the future to stop progressing. It would be nice if they progressed in a way that I thought was actual progression, but that is a pipe dream. I have never been "mainstream" and do not expect the mainstream to come around to my way of seeing things in my lifetime.

Take old school MMORPG gameplay and throw in kick-ass new graphics and you have progress. Throw in some tweaking of systems and you have progress. Making MMOs more single player is NOT progression for me. Think about an MMO that had SWG's vaunted crafting (old school) with Vanguard's diplomacy (old school) add in some UO PvP (old school) and maybe EQ combat (old school) with new graphics and some tweaking and you could have a kick ass MMORPG.

That being said, what is wrong with wanting one, two, or five MMOs that embrace what made MMOs click in the first place for some of us? Change happens. Everywhere. It does not mean I have to cow-tow to it and praise it, even if it is not to me.

As far as player run servers (Emulation Servers), some people (not I) do not agree with the idea behind them. They may have a stricter morality on the issue of someone (or some people) using others intellectual property. What do these players do? Succumb to "the masses?"

I realize you get tired of "the good ol' days" threads and do your sniping in almost every thread. But if these players fall silent, what then? Well, other than boring "THIS GAME IS GREAT!" threads. It is one thing to succumb to "mainstream" if one agrees with the direction. It is quite another to just fall silent and fade away, though I think you may find it a better solution.

I don't want time to stop. But I do not agree with every advancement. What pushes the costs for making an MMO I disagree with as progression. I do not need voice-overs and cut-scenes and instances or phasing. I do not need epic "I save the world!" stories in my MMORPG. I need fully fleshed out worlds in which to have adventures in.

PS: Sorry for not quoting, but I use the BBML form of posting not the WYSIWYG and the formatting of your last post was pretty, but a pain to try to and reformat (to make it look like the original) for a reply.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

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