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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What if EQL>EQN?

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21 posts found
  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  9/02/13 8:14:00 PM#1

I made a blog about this but then thought it might be a good forum discussion as well. So, my question is, what if EQL ends up out performing EQN? Will EQN suffer? Will it be a win win for SOE? If that is the case should they make EQL more of a full MMO by adding features from EQN? For my long hypothesis, link below. But I'm terribly lame and merely a casual EQ fan, I'm more interested in what the serious EQ fans think.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas/092013/25468

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11563

9/02/13 8:29:09 PM#2

i'll do both games - I'm not much a crafter tho

 

for me, it doesn't matter that a mmo is immensely popular

as long as the mmo is fun for me and financially sustainable - I'm comfortable

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

9/02/13 11:14:46 PM#3

I think a sucess in marketing landmark will lead to sucess in selling EQ:N

 

by the time Next rolls around anyone who plays landmark will be use to a lot of the systems that will carry over into both games, Landmark isn't going to have much in the way of progression (even if Next isn't going to have much, landmark will only have gear progression and one class...and I am betting less races at roll out), Landmark will have no story line...at all, no real element of the world "moving" anywhere, other than moving around the world to see what other people crafted (which I find fun but recognize as not as engaging as setting up a guild hall in a desert once populated by giants).

 

If SOE is smart about going after a larger audience they will include elements in Next that don't have to be in Landmark, like mini pets, cosmetic gear, trophy hunting,and all that mini "game in the game" stuff hat I normally skip over but I know people who visit WoW just to experience...well to be honest I am a cosmetic gear whore and generally collect a lot if in Lotro.

So yea, if I want to play a gnome ranger who sneaks around and uses a bow and lives in the forest...I will have to be in Landmark....if I want to build a ranger home (with gnome dimensions), I will need to be in Landmark. If I want to be a crafter of weapons or armor I will need to be in Next, if I want to build a house with an armory style motif I will need to be in Landmark(or buy one someone else built in landmark).

 

  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 728

9/02/13 11:27:17 PM#4

One thing is for sure: EQL will at the very least have as much creative freedom as minecraft.

 

Now ask yourself- do you think a "re-imagining" of minecraft that is based off EverQuest and with more appealing graphics, more features, and more fame can be at least as successful as minecraft?

If the answer is yes, then YES.. EQL stands a good chance of ending up being more popular than EQN.

 

Edit: By the way I read some of your blog posts, they're very entertaining and well thought out. I almost thought I was reading MMORPG staff articles in some instances..

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5786

9/02/13 11:37:51 PM#5

Remember that the point of EQL is 2 fold:

1. To fund EQN (yes EQL will have a cash shop)

2. To let players do the development work and create parts of EQN world

If EQL fails - EQN will fail as well, the success of EQN depends on EQL doing well.

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1501

9/03/13 3:28:20 AM#6
Originally posted by DMKano

Remember that the point of EQL is 2 fold:

1. To fund EQN (yes EQL will have a cash shop)

2. To let players do the development work and create parts of EQN world

If EQL fails - EQN will fail as well, the success of EQN depends on EQL doing well.

 

No. Not really. Will they profit with EQN, if Landmark does well? Of, course. But after all they are more or less two independent games.. and i don't believe that SOE is THAT broken that they can't develop any further without a heavy money infusion from Landmark.

And in all honestly they are not dependentm, if some players create content for EQN or not. But players will create content, and a lot of it, and we will buy a lot of that stuff from the cash shop, and SOE will make profit out of the creativity from players. A good idea, a genius idea... but i really do hope that they are not to greedy. (5%-15% as middleman is most probably ok, but to take 25% or even more would be impertinence)

@Topic:

And yes.. it could be possible that Landmark will become more popular.. especially in the long run. There are a lot of people out there, which do like all the creativity and don't mind the lack of game(look at minecraft), although it depends how creative you can be in EQN.. EQN could be very successful and popular, too. With all the changing world stuff, the emergent AI, the most probably more fleshed out economy, the building and creativity within EQN, and the game elements.

We will see.

 

  Utinni

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 357

9/03/13 3:31:22 AM#7
I think landmark will out-populated next by a bit eventually. It's got a much broader appeal and no polarizing features. Everyone I know will play landmark and hearthstone, EQN not so much.
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5786

9/03/13 7:58:59 AM#8
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by DMKano

Remember that the point of EQL is 2 fold:

1. To fund EQN (yes EQL will have a cash shop)

2. To let players do the development work and create parts of EQN world

If EQL fails - EQN will fail as well, the success of EQN depends on EQL doing well.

 

No. Not really. Will they profit with EQN, if Landmark does well? Of, course. But after all they are more or less two independent games.. and i don't believe that SOE is THAT broken that they can't develop any further without a heavy money infusion from Landmark.

And in all honestly they are not dependentm, if some players create content for EQN or not. But players will create content, and a lot of it, and we will buy a lot of that stuff from the cash shop, and SOE will make profit out of the creativity from players. A good idea, a genius idea... but i really do hope that they are not to greedy. (5%-15% as middleman is most probably ok, but to take 25% or even more would be impertinence)

 

Then why even make EQL, why not focus on EQN solely?

Consider the following

EQN is in its 3rd iteration now (its been rebooted internally twice prior to Voxel reboot)- every MMO reboot sets the game back by at least 1-2 years, in Dev cost that translates to 10s of millions of dollars for each reboot (veteran game devs are very expensive - look at SoE videos that show their staff, there was not a single person in their 20s, no new blood)

But SoE did something to offset the cost of reboots, they cut their Dev team down to bare bones (some would say they cut into the bone actually), yes the Dev team for a next major AAA revolutionary title is very small - this is why EQN needs EQL to work, they need codevelopment from players! 

SoE is not doing this because it's a cool thing to do, they really need help as they cut their staff way down.

But the upside is that they also get an influx of cash if EQL does well from the cash shop (btw putting in cash shops into a game is not cheap, monetization teams and platform teams have a lot of work to get it done right - another multi-million dollar expense).

This is why EQL needs to be successful - SoE needs to offset their internal overbloated cost of 3 EQN reboots, and the cut down Dev straff needs help.

Even mighy SoE has budgets they need to stick to, they don't have endless cash to develop games, and EQN so far has been a financial drain on them.

EQL also is costing money to develop - so yes I say they need it to do well.

If EQL fails - I think EQN is in trouble.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

9/03/13 1:43:58 PM#9
Originally posted by DMKano
 

But SoE did something to offset the cost of reboots, they cut their Dev team down to bare bones (some would say they cut into the bone actually), yes the Dev team for a next major AAA revolutionary title is very small - this is why EQN needs EQL to work, they need codevelopment from players! 

SoE is not doing this because it's a cool thing to do, they really need help as they cut their staff way down.

 

They have officially denied a need for player generated content in the IGN interview, not saying they do or do not actually need it but they state that is not the case.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1501

9/03/13 2:03:39 PM#10
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by DMKano

Remember that the point of EQL is 2 fold:

1. To fund EQN (yes EQL will have a cash shop)

2. To let players do the development work and create parts of EQN world

If EQL fails - EQN will fail as well, the success of EQN depends on EQL doing well.

 

No. Not really. Will they profit with EQN, if Landmark does well? Of, course. But after all they are more or less two independent games.. and i don't believe that SOE is THAT broken that they can't develop any further without a heavy money infusion from Landmark.

And in all honestly they are not dependentm, if some players create content for EQN or not. But players will create content, and a lot of it, and we will buy a lot of that stuff from the cash shop, and SOE will make profit out of the creativity from players. A good idea, a genius idea... but i really do hope that they are not to greedy. (5%-15% as middleman is most probably ok, but to take 25% or even more would be impertinence)

 

Then why even make EQL, why not focus on EQN solely?

Consider the following

EQN is in its 3rd iteration now (its been rebooted internally twice prior to Voxel reboot)- every MMO reboot sets the game back by at least 1-2 years, in Dev cost that translates to 10s of millions of dollars for each reboot (veteran game devs are very expensive - look at SoE videos that show their staff, there was not a single person in their 20s, no new blood)

But SoE did something to offset the cost of reboots, they cut their Dev team down to bare bones (some would say they cut into the bone actually), yes the Dev team for a next major AAA revolutionary title is very small - this is why EQN needs EQL to work, they need codevelopment from players! 

SoE is not doing this because it's a cool thing to do, they really need help as they cut their staff way down.

But the upside is that they also get an influx of cash if EQL does well from the cash shop (btw putting in cash shops into a game is not cheap, monetization teams and platform teams have a lot of work to get it done right - another multi-million dollar expense).

This is why EQL needs to be successful - SoE needs to offset their internal overbloated cost of 3 EQN reboots, and the cut down Dev straff needs help.

Even mighy SoE has budgets they need to stick to, they don't have endless cash to develop games, and EQN so far has been a financial drain on them.

EQL also is costing money to develop - so yes I say they need it to do well.

If EQL fails - I think EQN is in trouble.

AS we don't know, so we can just speculate. But i don't think so.

First of all.. for making a theme for a game, you can not really count on players.. for that you do have your graphic artists and designers.. they are working on it

But as they switched to voxel and have seen what they can do.. they just wanted to profit from that, to offer their own kind of Minecraft creative mode.. especially because they know that they have to restrict terraforming/building somewhat in EQN.

And because of that they made EQNL so that the player can go crazy and build/terraform the hell out of it, with out any restriction about conflicting with the current EQ theme.

Another point is, that EQN Landmark does not really cost any additional money(or at least not a lot), because everything made for Landmark will be required for EQN anyway. And with the option that they can profit from player created content is just another advantage. And i really do think, that they will get a lot more money out of the stuff from players, which will be sold at the cash shop.. and not so much about the stuff they actually will take to EQN. Especially that they player made stuff will be sold ongoing and over years.. whereas all those, which they take is just for the release.. and even more important they do need the permission of the orginal creator.. which could be troublesome.

And about what would happen if Landmark would terrible fail. I don't know. It would be a setback for EQN in some way or the other. But in all honestly i can't imagine that Landmark could fail.. because they can't make a lot of things wrong with Landmark. Almost all Minecraft players want to try out Landmark.. and a lot of people interesting in Minecraft, but put off because of graphic or the investment, can now try out Landmark for free.

EQN can fail a lot easier, because there they can make a lot of mistakes, especially long term appeal. A lot of people wil try out EQN, as many as with most current AAA MMOs, millions.. but the more important question is how many will stay, how many will play EQN after 3 month? Especially with their F2P model without any Box sales. If the would put out a themepark like lets say Wildstar, they would really be in heavy trouble.. and therefore Wildstar does it right to get the box sale(which will be high) and don't give the game out for free. Nowadays a lot of people invest money to try out a new shiney game, but a lot less are really willing to stay long term in a MMO. What was the last MMO with any significant long term success? That is the real risk for SOE.. there they can make or break it.

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 643

9/03/13 2:33:27 PM#11

I'm wondering exactly how many dedicated players EQ:NL will actually have.  Sure, it will have a massive rush of players waiting to log-in when the game first launches, but how many will be there 3 months in?  If the purpose of EQ:NL is merely to try to co-opt some community artistic talents to building EQ:N  (not necessarily a huge assumption), how many people are going to be interested in a community focused almost entirely on building artwork?  Sure, it has a community showcase where artists can compare their efforts, but what if EQ:NL is more like Maya or Blender (or another art program) with a persistent, online workspace?  Will that hold people's interest?

From the building EQ:N aspect, will the players exploring the EQ:NL tool have the artistic ability that SOE is looking for?   To me, this seems like a huge risk.  The player talent will not be working to their schedule, and without direction.   If SOE wants the EQ:NL community to build a new cultural forge for Qeynos, what happens if the community chooses to build their own castle instead?   Even if the community responds with great enthusiasm, SOE is still left the rather arduous task of reviewing each entry, judging the buildings, and choosing a 'winner'.   Then the winning submission would need to be retouched by the SOE staff to ensure stylistic and aesthetic consistency and test the model's functionality.   And if there are 86 new clock towers, 7 new forges and 0 new docks, SOE would need to create the Docks artwork entirely, and probably after the EQ:NL deadline had expired (rush, rush, rush!)  And that process might take as much work on SOE's end as producing the artwork themselves.

So, if the end result requires SOE to do as much, if not more, work, cost the same or more, and may or may not hit their internal development deadlines, is SOE any better off?   To me, EQ:NL is an effort to monetize a development tool, by wrapping it in a very loose 'game' environment.  Clever if it works out.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

9/03/13 3:19:17 PM#12
Originally posted by Mendel

I'm wondering exactly how many dedicated players EQ:NL will actually have.  Sure, it will have a massive rush of players waiting to log-in when the game first launches, but how many will be there 3 months in?  If the purpose of EQ:NL is merely to try to co-opt some community artistic talents to building EQ:N  (not necessarily a huge assumption), how many people are going to be interested in a community focused almost entirely on building artwork?  Sure, it has a community showcase where artists can compare their efforts, but what if EQ:NL is more like Maya or Blender (or another art program) with a persistent, online workspace?  Will that hold people's interest?

From the building EQ:N aspect, will the players exploring the EQ:NL tool have the artistic ability that SOE is looking for?   To me, this seems like a huge risk.  The player talent will not be working to their schedule, and without direction.   If SOE wants the EQ:NL community to build a new cultural forge for Qeynos, what happens if the community chooses to build their own castle instead?   Even if the community responds with great enthusiasm, SOE is still left the rather arduous task of reviewing each entry, judging the buildings, and choosing a 'winner'.   Then the winning submission would need to be retouched by the SOE staff to ensure stylistic and aesthetic consistency and test the model's functionality.   And if there are 86 new clock towers, 7 new forges and 0 new docks, SOE would need to create the Docks artwork entirely, and probably after the EQ:NL deadline had expired (rush, rush, rush!)  And that process might take as much work on SOE's end as producing the artwork themselves.

So, if the end result requires SOE to do as much, if not more, work, cost the same or more, and may or may not hit their internal development deadlines, is SOE any better off?   To me, EQ:NL is an effort to monetize a development tool, by wrapping it in a very loose 'game' environment.  Clever if it works out.

I don't think Landmark will be hurting for players

a) it is free...people PAY to play minecraft

b) It is like minecraft given an overhaul from 1989 graphics.

c) 12 million people have bought minecraft in the last 24 hours 12,000 more just bought minecraft.

 

As for getting what they want out of Landmark, I think people might be overreaching with the amount of supposed need SOE will have for player developed content, people will design with norathian style if they want the product to be sold in EQ:N, that alone will influence a lot of people to build castles instead of spaceships and guildhalls over pyramids.

SOE can easily influence a singular design goal by hosting contest for content, like say... best small village farm house...I have no doubt with a massivle player base (see the first part of this post), you are going to get a large enough group of people building farm houses that something will op up that is nice.

I regularly interact with 3D artist who respond to such contest on other websites, Deviantart has a fan site for DAZ 3d for instance where they ask for "themed" responses. They get some really time intensive responses at times, or you can look to other games as examples, Skyrim...or any of the elder scroll franchise games, has a huge modding community...yes you will sometimes get junk but there are many examples of people putting out content that is superior to the original game designers content that still keeps full immersion (any of amidianreborns texture work comes to mind)...all of this is done without any real monetary compensation just a desire to create.

 

I think if we get out of the idea of SOE being dependent on this content and more towards the possibility of what such content could be, based on past examples in less MMORPG type games, it is a good system with good possibilities and something no MMO has had before, this will be the first time a game has both texture and item creation mixed in with landscape and housing creation in a player generated format. The only other game I can think of that has done this is The Second Life...and that is a vastly different type of sandbox game.

 

 

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 643

9/03/13 5:03:35 PM#13

We're not terribly far off, GK.  Dependency on an external provider is a huge project risk, especially when that relationship is non-contractual.   I really hope that SOE isn't putting itself into a dependent position here.   It would be bad for everyone.   I was trying to show that as a bad thing, but I guess I flubbed it.

Anyway, it's all just speculation.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  arieste

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3310

9/04/13 3:07:10 PM#14

EQL being more (or more clearly) successful than EQN is not actually that far-fetched.

 

From a marketing perspective, EQL has a clear audience in mind.  They know exactly who they're targeting and it's fairly easy to figure out what those people want.  Also, since there are few major competitors and few expectations, it'll be a lot easier to sell the game with whatever features it happens to have - people simply won't know any better.

 

EQN on the other hand is a lot more difficult sell.  SOE has pretty much decided to give up on their existing franchise base by going in an experimental direction that somehow manages to piss off both EQ1 and EQ2 players - who tend to want different things in their MMO in the first place.   I"m guessing that the strategy there is that those people will buy EQN just because of the name, whereas the focus needs to be on attracting NEW people with the actual product.  (This is just my opinion of course). 

 

EQN can pay off big time - after all, the things that the game is copying - combat, graphics, system requirements - are being copied from the more successful games on the market.  The bad thing so far is that the things that are unique and innovative in EQN - voxels, rally calls, etc. - are seemingly taking a back seat to concerns about those other things.   It's a big risk to purposely risk alienating your existing customer base in order to reach out to a broader market, but there is precedent for it working.  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  12/23/13 10:18:14 AM#15

After seeing the latest updates I'm more confident that ever that EQL is and will continue to overshadow EQN. While I'm excited for both and I think both will do well N looks to be more of a game for EQ fans while L looks to be a game for MMO and Minecraft fans. This will cause it to have more players and by default draw more attention than N.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

12/23/13 10:43:11 AM#16
Which one is better will depend on what the player wants to do. I do think the prospect of x amount if servers you can freely move around in, each with UGC to experience sounds great. Especially since there will be tools for quest and mob scripting functionality. I assume that more than one group of players will create and publish a whole area of lore based content, if not by server. The feeling of exploration will he huge but also dependent on player participation.

On the other hand in sure many will want to experience what SoE has for next. The way they plan to roll out content sounds like it will pull people in and it will of course have world story and the classes. I'm sure EQN will be instrumental in inspiring players to build their own stories as Landmark creations.

I think they will coexist very well.
  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 579

12/23/13 10:47:35 AM#17
Originally posted by arieste

EQN on the other hand is a lot more difficult sell.  SOE has pretty much decided to give up on their existing franchise base by going in an experimental direction that somehow manages to piss off both EQ1 and EQ2 players - who tend to want different things in their MMO in the first place.   I"m guessing that the strategy there is that those people will buy EQN just because of the name, whereas the focus needs to be on attracting NEW people with the actual product.  (This is just my opinion of course). 

Smedley (and SOE by association) already said that they made EQNext different from EQ1 and EQ2 because they didn't want to cannibalize those games playerbase. That's the whole point: get new players into the Everquest franchise with a different style of game. SOE do not want to compete with itself with a new game.

 

 

 

  Karble

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 695

I play therefor I am

12/23/13 3:28:50 PM#18

EQ landmark will be so different than EQ Next that I have no doubt they will attract different crowds.

 

EQ Landmark is about using  your imagination to build stuff. They have no plans of adding in multiple classes or lore of any kind. You pretty much run around planting your flag on spots of land you want to build on on multiple servers. Then build and explore and build and fight stuff and explore....sell stuff on the sony store for cash....rinse and repeat. Oh and you can see other player's stuff and allow friends to co-build with you.

 

EQ Next is full fledged MMORPG with lots of classes to find and switch between. Exploration, building cities, full lore spanning several time periods, dungeons, all manor of creatures and npc's. Destructable environments.

 

My honest opinion is that EQ Landmark will be very popular until EQ Next is released, then EQ Next will be popular until there are calls from sony for additional content for EQ Next expansions etc. It will be cyclical and alot of fun. They will feed off eachother in popularity and share the player volume back and fourth.

One thing that will drive more players to EQ Landmark will be more and more tools to make what players want to build, become possible. Time will tell.

There is still plenty of time to make or break either game at this stage.

 

 

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

12/24/13 6:48:53 AM#19

*shrug* there really is no predicting how it will go. Minecraft is popular, but a lot of other minecraft-like games are not.

 

People got bored by collecting resources pretty fast (I know I do).

 

We'll see.

  Zzulu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 455

King of Nerds

12/27/13 6:11:44 PM#20
Building a few buildings and other fun stuff is appealing to me but I'm not sure I see the long term appeal there. To me EQL feels like a game I might log into every now and then and fool around in for an hour or so while I'm hoping EQN will be something I can log into every day and stick around
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