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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why did MMOs become about the money and numbers?

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  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/29/13 4:44:14 PM#81


Originally posted by Axehilt

We're not even remotely talking about art people aren't buying.  We're talking about art which is being purchased.

Then I do not see your point since only 2 options are left:

1) There is no reason to starve when your products are being sold since you make enough money to feed you.

2) Your sales are low and then you should consider changing your business.


In either case, it is their choice to run a business that isn't making enough money for them, in a way or another.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/29/13 7:26:12 PM#82
Originally posted by Gdemami

Then I do not see your point since only 2 options are left:

1) There is no reason to starve when your products are being sold since you make enough money to feed you.

2) Your sales are low and then you should consider changing your business.

In either case, it is their choice to run a business that isn't making enough money for them, in a way or another.

The MMOs being complained about here are regular MMOs, which are reasonably profitable.  Players are apparently criticizing them for trying to make money, implying they should make less money, and no longer be profitable.

So as I said, the players here are essentially saying, "starve for me, artists!"

  free2play

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1811

8/29/13 9:30:10 PM#83

I'm pretty sure it was always about the money, we were just a little more naive back then.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5253

8/30/13 4:17:08 AM#84
Originally posted by free2play

I'm pretty sure it was always about the money, we were just a little more naive back then.

I don't think so, corporate giants had not eaten up every last MMO and cherry picked every small gaming company by the late 90's, early 00's. This has always been happening of course, it did not suddenly start, but I think there was a tipping point which started as we moved into the 00's and became more apparent with each passing year. New small gaming companies still emerge but far fewer than back then, the start up costs are just too prohibitive now. We do have a lot of new indie companies emerging but they are producing games which are seriously graphically behind the giants.

The days are gone when 2 guys can create one of the most advanced graphical games for the times (Elite). Many of the old entrepreneurs who produced MMO's in particular were gaming enthusiasts. Today it seems that when you are looking for a new CEO your first port of call is big corporate companies. Not former game producers or designers, not even executives working in the entertainment industry. Pepsi Cola is deemed a better source of executives for the gaming industry than those in the entertainment industry.

Today it is all about the money.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1175

8/30/13 4:28:35 AM#85
Bigger question is, when did the developers we trust start lying to us in order to have us purchase their game.
  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/30/13 10:37:27 AM#86


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Yes.  "Bangs Fist"

When did for profit companies start caring about money and numbers.

That really grinds my gears.



They make the games for money, not to make a good game and get money, see what I'm saying, of course Turbine, makers of Asheron's Call didn't say "I'm going to live in a box so this game can be amazing" the CEO's obviously had nice cars and nice houses when Asheron's Call was their main game, but they CARED for their game. They wanted it to be successful so people could enjoy it. Nowadays asshole businessmen have wedged themselves into the market to corrupt yet another place with their greed and make these games solely for the money.

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/30/13 10:41:11 AM#87


Originally posted by TheScavenger
A lot of good companies degraded when they saw the money Blizzard made with WoW. They didn't make MMOs because they enjoyed making or playing them, but they actually hated MMOs, but saw how much money there was in the business.

 

Anyone remember Ultima Online? That was decades ago. That was when EA wasn't all about the money. EA helped make UO, a truly great and probably the best MMO to date. People still talk about it to this day...ITS STILL PAY TO PLAY and...ITS STILL A SUCCESS. More successful than EA's recent MMOs.

 

Then remember SWG? Yeah so do I. While I personally enjoyed UO more (always liked fantasy), SWG was amazing. Then SOE, a great company at the time, completely changed it. Again, they saw how much money they "thought" they "could" make...in the end, it was a disaster for them. Then SOE re-made it into SWTOR...they took the recent changes of SWG and made it a bit more modern and added a linear story that has nothing to do with MMO. Didn't really work out for them and SOE turned it into a free to play game like the rest of their games.

 

Even Everquest was more of a sandbox (or maybe its better classified as an open world).

 

Then of course Asheron's Call was amazing, more niche than EQ and UO. But the developers of AC LOVED their game and the genre. They really wanted to make it great. Then their new MMO, just made for cash and numbers.

 

the point is...these companies used to be great, they loved MMOs and they really wanted to revolutionize the genre. heck, these companies even let their developers play their MMO. I remember talking to developers in UO and SWG (not GMs, actual developers...in chat)...now these developers never play the MMO. When was the last time you talked to a developer in a game where you didn't have to contact them for a support question? Probably back in the classic days.

 

So like the title says...why did MMOs become about the money and numbers? What happened to the love that went into them? In the old days, they never cared how many people played the MMO...as long as the ones who played it enjoyed it. Now they are factory made, no love at all...just feels like your playing a machine.



I completely agree sir. Greedy businessmen wedged themselves into the market because WoW's numbers sent an alert on the business radar making MMO's the new business hunting grounds. Personally, I'm going into game creation and business solely for the reason to make an mmo that I care about, and I WILL WANT TO PLAY.

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/30/13 10:45:06 AM#88


Originally posted by Rydeson
     Many people will always fight the idea that psychological tactics are used against them..  It's just natural for sheep to deny they have been duped and played like a cheap fiddle.. MMORPG games are riddled with psych tactics, to keep players playing.. From combat, to loot to social gathering in cities..  It's all part of manipulating the players mind.. 

Whether that's what you call it or not, It's simply developers realising what people like and incorporating it in the game to make a fun game. I realise that developers try to keep me playing, because im having fun. Now some sneak tactics CASH SHOP for example piss me off, and that BS can gtfo of the mmos, but things like pvp, dungeons, raids n such i enjoy and when developers put those in, cool it enjoy it.

  Reiken_Birge

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/13
Posts: 59

8/30/13 3:12:24 PM#89
Originally posted by TheScavenger

So like the title says...why did MMOs become about the money and numbers? What happened to the love that went into them? In the old days, they never cared how many people played the MMO...as long as the ones who played it enjoyed it. Now they are factory made, no love at all...just feels like your playing a machine.

Because development companies turned into corporations and publishers and at the end of the day what matters is the bottom line. This applies to more than just MMO's or gaming in general however.

We could sit here and blame developers and their publishers all day but at the end of the day it is the people who support these games that are the cause of the problem. If the masses buy into a game and subscribe, the company makes money and they are incentivised to continue making more games that don't have any love, vision or passion behind them.

But it's hard to derail the masses from buying something that has been built from the ground up to appeal to them and leech of their wallets rather than go after a project that tries to provide quality or just be different.

At least there are a few main stream games that are trying to be different and do their own thing now to a degree, but the vast majority of MMO's out there still feel like they were made with the exact same cookie cutter. Makes it hard to care about them really.

Kingdom of Knights - Community Manager

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12315

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 3:53:00 PM#90
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Yes.  "Bangs Fist"

 

When did for profit companies start caring about money and numbers.

That really grinds my gears.



They make the games for money, not to make a good game and get money, see what I'm saying..
 

No, because it is ridiculous. How are they getting money if they aren't making MMOs that people feel are good enough to pay for?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/30/13 3:56:10 PM#91


Originally posted by Scot

I don't think so

Yet, you post something so incredibly naive...or just flawed at best.

It was ALWAYS about the money, just now there are larger sums in play because of production costs.

And why the hell would anyone want a game designer for CEO of +200 employee company?!


Games are produced by same enthusiasts as always, you are just wearing epic rose tinted glasses of nostalgy. Back then, most of the games were crap as so is today.

  czombie

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/12
Posts: 83

8/30/13 4:00:27 PM#92
Originally posted by moosecatlol
Bigger question is, when did the developers we trust start lying to us in order to have us purchase their game.

Would you care to provide an example of developers lying to customers?  Being swayed by hype and being lied to are two entirely different things.  

A lot of companies make their money off of gamers who buy a game based just on hype because they want to be one of the first people to play it right away, and then said game ends up disappointing.  But this is something that could be easily avoided if people were more patient and waited for games to be released and thoroughly reviewed before buying them, or if gamers were just easier to please in general.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/30/13 4:05:32 PM#93


Originally posted by Reiken_Birge

the people who support these games that are the cause of the problem. If the masses buy into a game and subscribe

People enjoying a game and find it worth their money is a problem? People liking something else than you do is a problem?

No, that isn't a problem of anyone else but you, and with all respect, no one cares.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2586

8/30/13 4:15:28 PM#94
Originally posted by Icewhite

Rewind to Spring of 2004.

"EQ2 is gonna so rock!" "Pfft, have you seen Blizzard's cartoony graphics, no one's ever going to want to play that."

Spring of 2005.

"Subs don't mean anything!" "EQ's still a better game, damn WoW kiddies"

 

Well, those statements are true. The core MMORPG crowd, by and large, never went over to WoW. WoW found its market with the casual gamers and RTS players who liked Blizzard lore. They were the first big name game company to make an MMO, and the first one to support it with a 1 year long multi million dollar ad campaign. When they announced beta it was in every website and magazine available at the time. They were the first to hit true mainstream, and their momentum has kept them going ever since, with very little to do with the actual game mechanics, which are objectively poor.

  vandal5627

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/12
Posts: 319

8/30/13 4:18:33 PM#95
If you own a company wouldnt you want more money and numbers?  I mean, that's basically business common sense.
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/31/13 3:22:35 AM#96
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Icewhite

Rewind to Spring of 2004.

"EQ2 is gonna so rock!" "Pfft, have you seen Blizzard's cartoony graphics, no one's ever going to want to play that."

Spring of 2005.

"Subs don't mean anything!" "EQ's still a better game, damn WoW kiddies"

 

Well, those statements are true. The core MMORPG crowd, by and large, never went over to WoW. WoW found its market with the casual gamers and RTS players who liked Blizzard lore. They were the first big name game company to make an MMO, and the first one to support it with a 1 year long multi million dollar ad campaign. When they announced beta it was in every website and magazine available at the time. They were the first to hit true mainstream, and their momentum has kept them going ever since, with very little to do with the actual game mechanics, which are objectively poor.

Naw.  The core MMORPG crowd jumped to wow too.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5253

8/31/13 3:48:44 AM#97
Originally posted by czombie
Originally posted by moosecatlol
Bigger question is, when did the developers we trust start lying to us in order to have us purchase their game.

Would you care to provide an example of developers lying to customers?  Being swayed by hype and being lied to are two entirely different things.  

A lot of companies make their money off of gamers who buy a game based just on hype because they want to be one of the first people to play it right away, and then said game ends up disappointing.  But this is something that could be easily avoided if people were more patient and waited for games to be released and thoroughly reviewed before buying them, or if gamers were just easier to please in general.

EA's SimCity? Goggle 'EA SimCity Lies'

That should help you out. :)

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5253

8/31/13 4:16:15 AM#98
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Scot

I don't think so

 

Yet, you post something so incredibly naive...or just flawed at best.

It was ALWAYS about the money, just now there are larger sums in play because of production costs.

And why the hell would anyone want a game designer for CEO of +200 employee company?!


Games are produced by same enthusiasts as always, you are just wearing epic rose tinted glasses of nostalgy. Back then, most of the games were crap as so is today.

"Back then, most of the games were crap as so is today." If I read this right, you are wrong. Most games ten to twenty years ago were not crap. I am not sure you could say they are today. But there is a far higher volume of games being released today partly because players are more open to international markets and the advent of indie games. So it is far harder with such a large volume for me to confidently say you are wrong.

 

As to my point about how gaming background is important for CEO's, here is a table from a study showing the main areas of experience of Japanese gaming CEO's. Each CEO picked their three main areas. The link is below.

Table 21: CEO main areas of experience Share of CEO with significant experience from the area (%)

Production (e.g. game producer) 63.4

Design and Story (e.g. game designer) 43.7

Animation 0

Creative direction 40.8

Technology and programming (e.g. lead programmer, technical director). 21.1

Financial and administrative services 18.3

Marketing and sales 35.2

Human resources 8.5

http://www.gdconf.com/news/2012/02/16/Survey/Survey%20Report%20February%202012.pdf

As you can see gaming background is still seen as more important than business background. My argument is that over the past twenty years the importance of gaming background has been denigrated. It is still seen as important but a big business background can be a trump card. Maybe the Japanese are still getting it right and the West has gone of course? Also, I am cognisant that the study I showed depended on the answers of CEO's, who may well have massaged them a bit.

Unfortunately, data like you see in that link is rare, doing a comparative study going back twenty years is not easy.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/31/13 5:52:45 AM#99


Originally posted by Scot

Most games ten to twenty years ago were not crap.

Sure they were(crap being a market/business success, not some silly arbitrary personally biased qualifiers).

Only thing that has changed is that the market is much bigger these days thus you subjectively feel there is less good games while in fact, the choice is just broader - there is a number of good games that are not your cup of tea.

And then...

First you complain that Pepsi Cola is perceived as better source of executives, now you argue that it isn't a case?

You just twist and misuse facts to fit your already made up, invalid tho, conclusions.

Sorry, it's time to deal with reality.

  lizardbones

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Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10645

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/31/13 6:48:43 AM#100


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Icewhite Rewind to Spring of 2004. "EQ2 is gonna so rock!" "Pfft, have you seen Blizzard's cartoony graphics, no one's ever going to want to play that." Spring of 2005. "Subs don't mean anything!" "EQ's still a better game, damn WoW kiddies"  
Well, those statements are true. The core MMORPG crowd, by and large, never went over to WoW. WoW found its market with the casual gamers and RTS players who liked Blizzard lore. They were the first big name game company to make an MMO, and the first one to support it with a 1 year long multi million dollar ad campaign. When they announced beta it was in every website and magazine available at the time. They were the first to hit true mainstream, and their momentum has kept them going ever since, with very little to do with the actual game mechanics, which are objectively poor.
Naw.  The core MMORPG crowd jumped to wow too.



It's not like that was a big deal. The "core" MMORPG crowd was a tiny part of the market.

But really, when people are talking about the "core" MMORPG crowd, who are they talking about? Are they just talking about the people who played UO? What about EQ? Wouldn't the core crowd be the people who play MMORPGs, regardless of which ones they are? For instance, the "core" crowd would be someone who came into the genre when WoW released, but right now they are playing The Secret World, Rift or FF. They haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, they're just not playing the MMORPG that they started with, or one of the MMORPGs that kicked things off way back when.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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