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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Irony of the Sandbox MMO

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127 posts found
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2161

8/29/13 7:58:41 PM#121
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by OfficialFlow
...well i agree with the notion that MODERN MMORPGs are not designed for making friends its just a mindless race to the finish

 

a race that someone already finished

 


 

Nice conclusion. Yes Modern MMOs are single player experiences, sadly.

I don't know how more people don't see this. And if they do see it, how they can argue that themeparks aren't inferior mmo's compared to sandboxes. The genre was designed around virtual worlds. Instancing and mainlining quests for a few weeks straight are nothing more than developers bowing to every whim the playerbase has.

 

SOMETIMES the game developers are the parents and the consumers are the kids. If I'm playing an MMO, just because I WOULD press a button and be instantly showered with infinite gold and items if that button existed, doesn't mean they should put the button in. Somebody needs to start telling these kids "NO."

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1132

8/29/13 8:04:37 PM#122
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by OfficialFlow
...well i agree with the notion that MODERN MMORPGs are not designed for making friends its just a mindless race to the finish

 

a race that someone already finished

 


 

Nice conclusion. Yes Modern MMOs are single player experiences, sadly.

I don't know how more people don't see this. And if they do see it, how they can argue that themeparks aren't inferior mmo's compared to sandboxes. The genre was designed around virtual worlds. Instancing and mainlining quests for a few weeks straight are nothing more than developers bowing to every whim the playerbase has.

 

SOMETIMES the game developers are the parents and the consumers are the kids. If I'm playing an MMO, just because I WOULD press a button and be instantly showered with infinite gold and items if that button existed, doesn't mean they should put the button in. Somebody needs to start telling these kids "NO."

 

Polling gone wrong IMO.   It's like polling kids if they rather have candy or a balanced diet and feed them candy despite the health effects.  

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1883

8/29/13 9:51:30 PM#123
Originally posted by UNATCOII

EvE is a perfect example of a title that claims to be that its a sandbox game. But in reality the only sandbox feature to it is at the very lower level of playing. When a player gets beyond that narrow bubble, that game is a P2W. If the "end-game" was truly sandbox, players wouldn't hit a glass ceiling that RL money can't built. The Fountain war recently showed by how much a publisher would change their own game around, to give an advantage to one corp and *maintain* their M.O. for 3 years. That's not sandbox, that's a managed P2W game.

 

True sandbox games are organic enough that no entity is all encompassing, as there's many routes to overcome obstacles in their way. The problem in the Fountain war was resources. TEST didn't have that ISK fountain Goons had to fund their war. TEST is an example of the real EvE (a thousand players playing without a funding source so encompassing it drove the economy), where the Goons are an example of what CCP allows them to be (e.g., allowing the exploit to exist that gave them the wealth to begin with...then, changed the game around it).

 

In a true sandbox game the resources wouldn't be so centralized and controlled, as that is domination. Domination is a disservice in a sandbox, as it closes avenues of access, and is an obstacle that only RL money or dev direct involvement can fix.

 

So true sandbox games is decentralized of any one source of power or resource. It's you are in control of your sphere of influence, but world domination can't be achieved, it's too organic to allow it. It's an Utopian game.

FFA and Sandbox never mix.

FFA is forced PvP. No different than forced questing.

 

As for Test, they are on of many to get negated. Goonswarm made it public two years ago they had become unbreakable. ISBoxer, enough Plex to meta anything the game could throw at them. CCP ignored it.

  Arclan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1496

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/30/13 1:22:18 PM#124


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by OfficialFlow ...well i agree with the notion that MODERN MMORPGs are not designed for making friends its just a mindless race to the finish a race that someone already finished
Nice conclusion. Yes Modern MMOs are single player experiences, sadly.
I don't know how more people don't see this. And if they do see it, how they can argue that themeparks aren't inferior mmo's compared to sandboxes. The genre was designed around virtual worlds. Instancing and mainlining quests for a few weeks straight are nothing more than developers bowing to every whim the playerbase has. SOMETIMES the game developers are the parents and the consumers are the kids. If I'm playing an MMO, just because I WOULD press a button and be instantly showered with infinite gold and items if that button existed, doesn't mean they should put the button in. Somebody needs to start telling these kids "NO."

Polling gone wrong IMO. It's like polling kids if they rather have candy or a balanced diet and feed them candy despite the health effects.



Indeed. Very good analogy, too.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  TheLizardbones

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/30/13 1:26:49 PM#125


Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by OfficialFlow ...well i agree with the notion that MODERN MMORPGs are not designed for making friends its just a mindless race to the finish a race that someone already finished
Nice conclusion. Yes Modern MMOs are single player experiences, sadly.
I don't know how more people don't see this. And if they do see it, how they can argue that themeparks aren't inferior mmo's compared to sandboxes. The genre was designed around virtual worlds. Instancing and mainlining quests for a few weeks straight are nothing more than developers bowing to every whim the playerbase has. SOMETIMES the game developers are the parents and the consumers are the kids. If I'm playing an MMO, just because I WOULD press a button and be instantly showered with infinite gold and items if that button existed, doesn't mean they should put the button in. Somebody needs to start telling these kids "NO."

Polling gone wrong IMO. It's like polling kids if they rather have candy or a balanced diet and feed them candy despite the health effects.



Indeed. Very good analogy, too.




Reading this bit made me think, "Echo Chamber". I'm not sure why.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 5555

8/30/13 3:29:53 PM#126
Originally posted by Eyesgood

 

Finally, it is not enough to plop players down in a game world and have them duke it out to the death in a player-controlled environment.  Law and order has its proper place.  You can have a great PVP game when you properly match risk and reward for everyone, not just for the bullies.  Provide protection to keep the larger player-base alive and thriving.  Give them a reason to support the Great Cause.  Provide reward for those who wish to seek fame and fortune, yes, but with controls in place so their base nature does not drive away your base players.  You cannot eliminate the bullies and unfortunately, most want them in the game if not for any other reason that the hero/villain paradigm.  This is fine.  But in your attempt to be more exciting, more thrilling, more dangerous, and more real to life, don’t forget that there are vastly more peoples out of prison than there are in.  And they are the ones who pay the taxes!

 

Worth repeating.

Sandbox discussions here often read like 1st graders discussing politics. The concept that the logical outcome of anarchy is replacing the suppression of freedom by the state with the suppression of freedom by bullies seems to be lost on them.

Sandbox games, just like any other social environment need rules that reward good social behavior and punish anti-social behavior.

Sometimes I get the feeling that most developers and some sandbox proponents believe that the majority of potential virtual world dwellers are antisocial bullies. They cater to them or at the very least, turn a blind eye to their abuses in the name of "freedom."

Until they realize that freedom =\= anarchy, the same amateurish attempts at sandboxes will be the norm. And they will exclude many more than they will include.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1835

9/06/13 1:50:16 PM#127
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

The problem you illustrate, I think, has to do with the misconception among Developers and Players that "freedom" equates with a lack of meaningfull consequences. It doesn't.  Freedom also doesn't equate with the ability to do anything you want. It simply equates that you have the OPPORTUNITY to try to do what you want. A subtle but important distinction.

In the real world, anti-social types generaly aren't very successfull simply because accomplishing most things which are significant requires a very large degree of cooperation and interdependance. Where many MMO's start to run into problems is that they don't represent very well the degree of cooperation and interdependance neccessary for an individual to function. If you actualy need people to rescue you when you are in trouble, heal your wounds when you are injured, provide your food, repair your weapons and armor, help you take down difficult foes, etc.......it gets much more difficult to be truely anti-social. You may still have villians.....but they'll be ones that at least treat thier own "tribes" well....because they need them in order to be effective.

 

It is an opportunity to sell games to them that requires no cooperation and non itnerdependence to make them feel successful.

Remember games are entertainment. They don't have to mirror the real world, and they certainly are not educational tools.

If the goal is to entertain, what is better to give the anti-social what they cannot have in real life?

Sorry for the late response. I don't disagree with you but it depends upon the type of audience you are targeting and the type of game you are trying to build. It's going to  be problematic targeting a game that features a wide latitude of action to effect other players towards an audience that is anti-social since they will tend to piss in the pot, so to speak....running into the exact irony the OP pointed out. If your target audience is geared toward the anti-social, then you probably want to put in tighter controls over how they can interact with other players.

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