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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » I see not much has changed then

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43 posts found
  Davynelord

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 122

8/25/13 8:53:16 AM#21

The lag that people experience is often your computer not being good enough or not optimized to run a game and I find this true with SWTOR more than most games.  

 

For example, I always thought my PC was great for running any game (still think so for 95% of games)....SWTOR always ran good in my opinion but when I played on a couple of my friends PC's, I found out just how bad my pc was compared to theirs. 

 

The lag I experience when a new player comes within range of me for the first time?  

The hiccups or freezes during warzones (though happens very rarely, like once every 15 or so matches)?  

The long load times into warzones and flashpoints?

 

Well all those things are bad on my PC because of 3 things....poor RAM, Mechanical Hard Drive and crappy ISP connection (bad download speed).

Just going next door to my friends house and play on their rigs has shown me that all the problems I thought were because of SWTOR was just me being in denial that my PC isn't optimized nor have as good parts as I can have to play the game.   Without having playing the game on other computers, I would still swear to you this day that SWTOR was behind the problems of long load times, poor connections (lots of crashes to server screen for example) and lag...but I know that now it's on my end, not theirs.

Bottom line, gamers need to stop acting like their S***T don't stink and realize that nobody's rig is flawless....and all the issues we have aren't always the fault of the developers, servers or the game's we play.   Try to play a game on different PC's before you assume the problem lies with the game your playing....when a game runs near flawless on one PC and runs like trash on yours...guess what, it's your rig that's the issue, not the game.
  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1484

8/25/13 4:46:39 PM#22

^^^^

Doubt it but if so that would be a Bioware fail! Designing your game so it can only run on higher end rigs .... EQ2 fell into that trap but at least they had the (feeble) excuse that they assumed tech would have gotten better.

To maximise sales companies need to ensure that the game runs on as many rigs as possible. Not rigs that people might buy in 5 years time but rigs they bought a couple of years ago. And for the better rigs you have an option for better graphics. Once people start to complain - and a lot of people with very high end rigs did - that just damages sales.

But at least the reviewers got to review a product with better graphics than they launched with! 

  Vercin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/04
Posts: 293

8/25/13 4:51:35 PM#23

I thought I would give SWTOR a  try lately since I'm not playing any other mmo currently. I don't regret much in my life but slapping the 80 bucks down that I did for this game..I do regret.

The patcher keeps stalling around 50-60% which is enough to let me log in but not go to the worlds my main characters are on.

I go to the forums for the game and it looks like dozens of threads about this problem have been opened with people left with no answer at all from support. I can't apparently make a new thread since I am no longer a subscriber.

I've uninstalled and resinstalled the game several times, let it repatch it self. Always 50-60% it just quits.

Also they have something called Bitraider which seems to be throttling my download to a flat 512kbps when in the past it would go as high as 2 mb/s. 

Sigh...I should just start burning money in a barrel rather then buy some of these mmos. At least the fire would be useful in keeping me warm.

 

The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.

  Frostvein

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 160

8/25/13 9:59:43 PM#24
Originally posted by Davynelord
Bottom line, gamers need to stop acting like their S***T don't stink and realize that nobody's rig is flawless....and all the issues we have aren't always the fault of the developers, servers or the game's we play.   Try to play a game on different PC's before you assume the problem lies with the game your playing....when a game runs near flawless on one PC and runs like trash on yours...guess what, it's your rig that's the issue, not the game.

 

Let me try and understand this -

 

My PC, custom built new in January 2012 gets over 70+ FPS in battle situations in several newer, more graphically intensive games like TERA GW2, with performance usually running around 100 FPS. In several older MMO's (WOW, for example) I run upwards of 120+ FPS (all with zero lag, mind you) With single player games, Skyrim, Crysis, Bioshock, I'm consistently running over 100 FPS, spiking over 120.

Yet in SWTOR, I cant get more than 60, ANYWHERE, and as soon as someone comes on screen it drops to about 30, 35. Fleet runs at around 20.

 

So dspite all of this, you want to tell me that my rig is the reason why my performance suffers? Am I supposed to believe that my PC is the problem, even though every other game I am playing or have played recently has zero performance issues?

 

 

 

 

 

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

8/26/13 3:34:07 AM#25
Originally posted by Davynelord

The lag that people experience is often your computer not being good enough or not optimized to run a game and I find this true with SWTOR more than most games.  

 

For example, I always thought my PC was great for running any game (still think so for 95% of games)....SWTOR always ran good in my opinion but when I played on a couple of my friends PC's, I found out just how bad my pc was compared to theirs. 

 

The lag I experience when a new player comes within range of me for the first time?  

The hiccups or freezes during warzones (though happens very rarely, like once every 15 or so matches)?  

The long load times into warzones and flashpoints?

 

Well all those things are bad on my PC because of 3 things....poor RAM, Mechanical Hard Drive and crappy ISP connection (bad download speed).

Just going next door to my friends house and play on their rigs has shown me that all the problems I thought were because of SWTOR was just me being in denial that my PC isn't optimized nor have as good parts as I can have to play the game.   Without having playing the game on other computers, I would still swear to you this day that SWTOR was behind the problems of long load times, poor connections (lots of crashes to server screen for example) and lag...but I know that now it's on my end, not theirs.

Bottom line, gamers need to stop acting like their S***T don't stink and realize that nobody's rig is flawless....and all the issues we have aren't always the fault of the developers, servers or the game's we play.   Try to play a game on different PC's before you assume the problem lies with the game your playing....when a game runs near flawless on one PC and runs like trash on yours...guess what, it's your rig that's the issue, not the game.

if you were right, this would be a mediocre game, that needs a top end computer

wow can be played on a toaster,,so how is this helping swtor?

people wont pay 5 $ for a game box now,,and you want them to get a new computer for this game?

good luck with that

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

8/26/13 6:19:39 PM#26
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by Davynelord

The lag that people experience is often your computer not being good enough or not optimized to run a game and I find this true with SWTOR more than most games.  

 

For example, I always thought my PC was great for running any game (still think so for 95% of games)....SWTOR always ran good in my opinion but when I played on a couple of my friends PC's, I found out just how bad my pc was compared to theirs. 

 

The lag I experience when a new player comes within range of me for the first time?  

The hiccups or freezes during warzones (though happens very rarely, like once every 15 or so matches)?  

The long load times into warzones and flashpoints?

 

Well all those things are bad on my PC because of 3 things....poor RAM, Mechanical Hard Drive and crappy ISP connection (bad download speed).

Just going next door to my friends house and play on their rigs has shown me that all the problems I thought were because of SWTOR was just me being in denial that my PC isn't optimized nor have as good parts as I can have to play the game.   Without having playing the game on other computers, I would still swear to you this day that SWTOR was behind the problems of long load times, poor connections (lots of crashes to server screen for example) and lag...but I know that now it's on my end, not theirs.

Bottom line, gamers need to stop acting like their S***T don't stink and realize that nobody's rig is flawless....and all the issues we have aren't always the fault of the developers, servers or the game's we play.   Try to play a game on different PC's before you assume the problem lies with the game your playing....when a game runs near flawless on one PC and runs like trash on yours...guess what, it's your rig that's the issue, not the game.

if you were right, this would be a mediocre game, that needs a top end computer

wow can be played on a toaster,,so how is this helping swtor?

people wont pay 5 $ for a game box now,,and you want them to get a new computer for this game?

good luck with that

I think the other poster was just having some fun, taking a jab at the EA satire of blaming customers for the game not performing as good as competitors games.

 

Everyone who has been around with SWTOR knows that Illum was shut down because it was embarassing for EA to present a game that gave less than 1 frame-per-second (fps) during what would be otherwise considered a normal 60+ fps session of Alterac Valley in WoW (40 vs 40)... on the exact same computer.

 

Chat bubbles were even taken out from the game because it caused too much stress on an already stressed out graphics / game engine.  Small instanced planets, and .. well you get the idea.

 

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Drakephire

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 414

8/28/13 1:19:54 AM#27

Thought about playing tonight. Logged in and even thought about buying the expac Makib (or what ever it's called). But then I realized my characters had all run out of level-appropriate quests during the time I played on just premium account.

So now, even if I buy the expac and sub, my characters are woefully behind the leveling curve.  That's when I  logged off.

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

8/28/13 12:47:54 PM#28
Originally posted by Drakephire

Thought about playing tonight. Logged in and even thought about buying the expac Makib (or what ever it's called). But then I realized my characters had all run out of level-appropriate quests during the time I played on just premium account.

So now, even if I buy the expac and sub, my characters are woefully behind the leveling curve.  That's when I  logged off.

Not sure what you mean at all , ran out of level appropriate quests ? Can you elaborate a bit more ?

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  Drakephire

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 414

8/28/13 5:41:38 PM#29
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by Drakephire

Thought about playing tonight. Logged in and even thought about buying the expac Makib (or what ever it's called). But then I realized my characters had all run out of level-appropriate quests during the time I played on just premium account.

So now, even if I buy the expac and sub, my characters are woefully behind the leveling curve.  That's when I  logged off.

Not sure what you mean at all , ran out of level appropriate quests ? Can you elaborate a bit more ?

Cheers,

BadOrb.

yeah. As an example, my 23rd level Sentinel has finished all of Taris and is now on Tatooine. All the quests are orange or red. The leveling penalty for premium players eventually locks you out of content.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

8/28/13 7:46:24 PM#30

It is still as much fun as it was. Which means, moderate solid fun, but nothing to write home about.

It is sad that THE singlemost expensive MMo of the biggest IP ever fell so short. Can't say Bioware lacked good avise, because by all means they COULD have made better. Autopilot seems to describe it well. Though I assume the cash shops does at least bring back the money. Who knows how good their pofit is.

I recall Ohlen said some time ago, it wasn't the VO which was so expensive it was the crappy engine which could initially only handle a dozen people, if you can believe it. So I guess the game is stuck tech-wise. Sad to see they made so little of it in those 2 years they managed it. They never recovered from the narrow-minded, self-righteous and arrogant concept designed by the original crew which now is mostly gone; guys like "players can't identify with non-humans" Mr Erickson. God, I hope that man NEVER gets NEAR a MMO in development. Liek ever. This Joseph Campbell-like "Hero Story" archetypes are just so OVERUSED, and Star Wars simply didn't know whent to quit that idea.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

8/28/13 7:57:36 PM#31
Originally posted by Elikal

It is still as much fun as it was. Which means, moderate solid fun, but nothing to write home about.

It is sad that THE singlemost expensive MMo of the biggest IP ever fell so short. Can't say Bioware lacked good avise, because by all means they COULD have made better. Autopilot seems to describe it well. Though I assume the cash shops does at least bring back the money. Who knows how good their pofit is.

I recall Ohlen said some time ago, it wasn't the VO which was so expensive it was the crappy engine which could initially only handle a dozen people, if you can believe it. So I guess the game is stuck tech-wise. Sad to see they made so little of it in those 2 years they managed it. They never recovered from the narrow-minded, self-righteous and arrogant concept designed by the original crew which now is mostly gone; guys like "players can't identify with non-humans" Mr Erickson. God, I hope that man NEVER gets NEAR a MMO in development. Liek ever. This Joseph Campbell-like "Hero Story" archetypes are just so OVERUSED, and Star Wars simply didn't know whent to quit that idea.

We only got a gleam into SWTOR's budget because of the EALouse, which in turn caused a deeper look.  I'd bet that if any financial info on EQN was ever released it would be comparable.  While SOE is using a lot of COTS / pre-fab components, they are all quite costly, collectively.

 

SWTOR has the unique disadvantage of giving LucasArts (now Disney) a royalty, speculated by financial groups at 30%.

 

But yes, SWTOR was mismanaged.  There is a huge number of reasons why, but I feel EA buying BioWare was the #1 (5000 word essay condensed to a couple sentences, sorry).

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

8/29/13 2:26:17 AM#32

yea, they had resources and Manpower, that most other mmos can only dream of

i wouldnt be surprised, if the next incarnation is in the Works already,  since they began working on this one

in 2005

 

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

8/29/13 11:57:20 AM#33
Originally posted by Drakephire
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by Drakephire

Thought about playing tonight. Logged in and even thought about buying the expac Makib (or what ever it's called). But then I realized my characters had all run out of level-appropriate quests during the time I played on just premium account.

So now, even if I buy the expac and sub, my characters are woefully behind the leveling curve.  That's when I  logged off.

Not sure what you mean at all , ran out of level appropriate quests ? Can you elaborate a bit more ?

Cheers,

BadOrb.

yeah. As an example, my 23rd level Sentinel has finished all of Taris and is now on Tatooine. All the quests are orange or red. The leveling penalty for premium players eventually locks you out of content.

O you mean preferred player , I see well you have a number of choices there. I will mention a few , Flashpoints , Warzones , go back to taris and do some heroic 2's maybe with people. 

Here's my thread on how to get quick xp on tatooine.

Two heroic 2's are require to obtain 30,000 xp in 12 mins. They are on the republic side of Tatooine. It takes a bit of travelling to start with , if you are new on that character on the planet. Firstly you need to open two outposts , Thorazan in the Dune Sea ( the furthest left hand side taxi on the map ) and outpost Espelar Settlement speeder ( Far right taxi on the map). You can open them by just travelling ( so i guess this is for alt's or if you have the patience your first character). I did them both at level 26 but I guess you could be lower. Also at Outpost Espelar start and finish the mission off the Jawa called Krikit ( it's the mission were you rescue 8 caged Jawa's) , Expect to die a few times. After handing it in , a Mission terminal will glow and give you one of the missions).

So the first mission is Breaking the code [H2] , it's very easy , at outpost Espelar mission terminal. Run into the doorway , run right and up the ramp ( you might die once or twice ) , press the button. Now return and hand in the mission.

The second mission is at outpost Thorazan , it' s the alien on the right called Lapad Dula , he gives you the mission The Long Goodbye [H2] , it is also easy. Just get to the very edge of the sarlac pit and then throw in a bomb , return to Lapad Dula.

That's it 30,000 Xp , o and the 12 mins is from cantina to cantina ( once you open the ouposts ofcourse). It is expecially usefull if you leave a character on Tatooine for a few days , I should imagine you could do these two missions from about 25-33. If you have questions ask away and happy hunting. I also tested going there at 23 and it works.

TL;DR
Outpost Espelar Settlement speeder , do mission [H2] Breaking the code , then at Outpost Thorazan , do the mission [H2] The long goodbye.

link -: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=527953&highlight=heroic

That should do it  , good luck.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

8/30/13 3:38:04 AM#34

so , what youre saying is, that he has to grind XP, to continue his STORY DRIVEN mmo?

and furthermore, use exploits, to do so?

am i the only one seeing several problems here?

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

8/30/13 10:16:26 AM#35
Originally posted by simplius

so , what youre saying is, that he has to grind XP, to continue his STORY DRIVEN mmo?

and furthermore, use exploits, to do so?

am i the only one seeing several problems here?

If you think playing a game for 12 mins a day is a grind then I'm not sure what rock you have been living under and there was no mention of any exploits in my post. Also they can then do some heroic 2's on taris too , still no grind. I never told him to kill 1 mil rats now did I ? Mind you that is another option I guess but that would then be a grind , which I never mentioned. As to the exploit comment , again you must have a mansion under that rock.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

8/30/13 10:45:18 AM#36

I remember that EALouse bit, nobody believed him and responded with "source" "screenshot or it didn't happen" "troll" "fake and gay", etc. lol. But what EALouse said became true in many ways, Bioware was once a fantastic company only destroyed by EA, EA has destroyed quite a few companies besides Bioware.


I also remember midway through the CU in SWG I saw articles about SWG's "New Gaming Enhacement" tested by the writer and raving about how good it is, we ALL thought that was a joke article because there was NO way SOE would shove the NGE 5 months through the CU, but it happened and man did it ever suck.


  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

8/31/13 2:06:10 AM#37
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by simplius

so , what youre saying is, that he has to grind XP, to continue his STORY DRIVEN mmo?

and furthermore, use exploits, to do so?

am i the only one seeing several problems here?

If you think playing a game for 12 mins a day is a grind then I'm not sure what rock you have been living under and there was no mention of any exploits in my post. Also they can then do some heroic 2's on taris too , still no grind. I never told him to kill 1 mil rats now did I ? Mind you that is another option I guess but that would then be a grind , which I never mentioned. As to the exploit comment , again you must have a mansion under that rock.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

repeating a mission=grind, but of course, a 12 minute grind is not bad

but my point is the levelling curve,,something is borked there

even the most grindy Eastern mmos dont make the player REPEAT missions, before endgame

i have only seen this problem in 2 other games, STO, and scarlet blade

exploit was prolly too strong , but you have to admit, that it is not good gameplay

yes, i have a mansion..and if you get any skills, you might get one too

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

8/31/13 10:04:13 AM#38
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by simplius

so , what youre saying is, that he has to grind XP, to continue his STORY DRIVEN mmo?

and furthermore, use exploits, to do so?

am i the only one seeing several problems here?

If you think playing a game for 12 mins a day is a grind then I'm not sure what rock you have been living under and there was no mention of any exploits in my post. Also they can then do some heroic 2's on taris too , still no grind. I never told him to kill 1 mil rats now did I ? Mind you that is another option I guess but that would then be a grind , which I never mentioned. As to the exploit comment , again you must have a mansion under that rock.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

repeating a mission=grind, but of course, a 12 minute grind is not bad

but my point is the levelling curve,,something is borked there

even the most grindy Eastern mmos dont make the player REPEAT missions, before endgame

i have only seen this problem in 2 other games, STO, and scarlet blade

exploit was prolly too strong , but you have to admit, that it is not good gameplay

yes, i have a mansion..and if you get any skills, you might get one too

He could also do some heroic's on Nar Shadda. What i think is wrong really is that when they decided to implement the freemium model they didn't work out the levelling curve for  F2P and / or Preferred properly. the game was designed as a sub game and with all the xp and resting xp , so because of the xp restrictions for F2P and preferred then you might have to do other missions to level as well as the class stories and side stories.

Still don't know what you mean about what I advised isn't good gameplay ? He wouldn't have to just do those 2 missions he could at least try some of the side stories on Tatooine , but surely after doing some heroics on Taris , Nar Shadda and Tatooine then after say 1-3 days he would be more than ready to start tatooine properly.

I just need to get tha skillz to buy a under rock mansion , meh i bettar get training.( I don't normally spell that badly btw ).

Wait a min you played Scarlet Blade ? I hope you don't go blind and also that you don't compare SWTOR to that game ever again.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

8/31/13 2:12:45 PM#39

mmos are about choices, a player usually has 3 choices:

solo PVE (which most of the content is centered around)

PVP

raiding

when you remove solo PVE, you lose at least 50% of the players

and dont underestimate scarlet blade..yes it is a very primitive game, but its also cheap

seeing, that shaiya is still around, i have no doubt , that scarlet blade will outlive swtor

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

8/31/13 3:19:22 PM#40
Originally posted by simplius

mmos are about choices, a player usually has 3 choices:

solo PVE (which most of the content is centered around)

PVP

raiding

when you remove solo PVE, you lose at least 50% of the players

and dont underestimate scarlet blade..yes it is a very primitive game, but its also cheap

seeing, that shaiya is still around, i have no doubt , that scarlet blade will outlive swtor

Yeah that's why I mentioned those 2 missions , you can solo them. Also there is at least 2 heroic 2's on Taris that he can solo , so that's 4 missions. All in all though , I can see why some F2P and preferred players might stop playing. That's if they don't work things out like i did , even though I am a subbed. I like to be ahead of the leveling curve.

Scarlet Blade is cheap and primitive you say , well ill knock it on the head and drag it back to my cave. You might be right about it being around longer than SWTOR but that's only because of SWTOR's license of it's IP.

Well I'm off to solo 3 heroic 2's on tatooine on the Imperial side. Incase that one guy has an IMP that's apparently stuck as well. Here's a quick guide for it .

There are 3 Heroic 2's you can do on a daily basis ( if you have other characters to play on in the mean time ). The first one is at the first taxi drop off ( after the starting area ) , it's from a guy stood outside the burning transprter ( he says " aerial bombardment " when you hand in the mission ). This mission takes a bit of practice at level 24 but you can do it , just don't attack the mobs where there are 3 next to each other , you run and click on all the boxes and speeders then run off , then kill the 3 single walkers and any groups of 2 and you will be done.

The second Heroic 2 is called black box , I forget the outpost name ( which doesn't help , but just look t up on the net ) , now this one is even easier ( not sure at 24 though ) , you basically twist and turn and avoid every sand person , then you get to the tent with 3 sand people outside it , kill them , then pick up the black box. Then run for your life if you die just come back at the med droid and hand it in.

The third one is quite tough ( so maybe level up a couple on those first 2 ) , but you can finish it . It's at the dune sea outpost and it involves prisoners and jedi. The best thing to do is kill two prisoners next to the jedi then evade. Then kill two more , until you have killed ( 5 i think it is ) enough , basically you don't have to finish the bonus until you are level 27-28 really. Then hand it in. 

Cheers ,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

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