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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Successful MMO without progression

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82 posts found
  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 7:32:38 AM#61

A bit more on the player housing.

 

You could get trophies from defeating bosses, which you can display in your house. You could set up events where friends or guild members or even random players are invited to your house to play random minigames to win prizes. There could even be a new random cue system, the random house party finder. You could store outfits and weapons and toys, and generally anything you don't want to carry around with you, because your house is your bank. You could also just stuff something into a chest. Ideally, you would have complete control of the design of your house, including hidden passageways and secret rooms.

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 7:33:39 AM#62
Originally posted by sargos7
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.

First of all, that actually doesn't take place in progression based games, because your character's strength increases at the same rate that the level of difficulty of the content you are trying to do increases. However, it could be included in a game without progression, very easily. There could be regions with monsters and dungeons with bosses that have less forgiving AI than you find in the starter areas.

The difference between the two is that, in your scenario, you've now forced a skill progression on the player, whereas in  most modern MMOs, the player chooses his rate of progression and content difficulty by the level he chooses to complete it at.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 7:44:57 AM#63
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by sargos7
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.

First of all, that actually doesn't take place in progression based games, because your character's strength increases at the same rate that the level of difficulty of the content you are trying to do increases. However, it could be included in a game without progression, very easily. There could be regions with monsters and dungeons with bosses that have less forgiving AI than you find in the starter areas.

The difference between the two is that, in your scenario, you've now forced a skill progression on the player, whereas in  most modern MMOs, the player chooses his rate of progression and content difficulty by the level he chooses to complete it at.

 

That's not what's going on at all. There is nothing besides the players curiosity driving them into new dungeons. If they find that they are not skilled enough to do them yet, they can continue doing the lower difficulty dungeons, which don't give as much gold and have less cool looking trophies, etc until they feel more confident to try something harder.

<.<

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

8/30/13 7:46:08 AM#64
Originally posted by sargos7
Mmo does not exclude mmorpg. I am saying there is not a single mmo that does not have progression that is successful (as in popular) and that every new mmo is an mmorpg, even though there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression.

Where?

Substantial =/= six guys on a forum. If this market exists, someone will make an attempt to capture it.

Point a game designer at where they are hiding, and wait. Filling a new market is how you create a Behemoth.

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 7:51:34 AM#65
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by sargos7
Mmo does not exclude mmorpg. I am saying there is not a single mmo that does not have progression that is successful (as in popular) and that every new mmo is an mmorpg, even though there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression.

Where?

Substantial =/= six guys on a forum. If this market exists, someone will make an attempt to capture it.

Point a game designer at where they are hiding, and wait. Filling a new market is how you create a Behemoth.

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 7:54:29 AM#66
Originally posted by sargos7
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by sargos7
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.

First of all, that actually doesn't take place in progression based games, because your character's strength increases at the same rate that the level of difficulty of the content you are trying to do increases. However, it could be included in a game without progression, very easily. There could be regions with monsters and dungeons with bosses that have less forgiving AI than you find in the starter areas.

The difference between the two is that, in your scenario, you've now forced a skill progression on the player, whereas in  most modern MMOs, the player chooses his rate of progression and content difficulty by the level he chooses to complete it at.

That's not what's going on at all. There is nothing besides the players curiosity driving them into new dungeons. If they find that they are not skilled enough to do them yet, they can continue doing the lower difficulty dungeons, which don't give as much gold and have less cool looking trophies, etc until they feel more confident to try something harder.

Correct. You have just put progression on your terms instead of the character's. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for playing an MMO without the RPG progression component and going with player skill based systems like what you propose.

Puzzle Pirates does that rather effectively. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 7:58:02 AM#67
Originally posted by sargos7
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by sargos7
Mmo does not exclude mmorpg. I am saying there is not a single mmo that does not have progression that is successful (as in popular) and that every new mmo is an mmorpg, even though there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression.

Where?

Substantial =/= six guys on a forum. If this market exists, someone will make an attempt to capture it.

Point a game designer at where they are hiding, and wait. Filling a new market is how you create a Behemoth.

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

Actually, I'll second Antiquated's point and question. If the market exists, devs will attempt to capture it. However, if there is data showing that is exists, I'd really like to see it.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 8:04:05 AM#68
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by sargos7
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by sargos7
Mmo does not exclude mmorpg. I am saying there is not a single mmo that does not have progression that is successful (as in popular) and that every new mmo is an mmorpg, even though there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression.

Where?

Substantial =/= six guys on a forum. If this market exists, someone will make an attempt to capture it.

Point a game designer at where they are hiding, and wait. Filling a new market is how you create a Behemoth.

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

Actually, I'll second Antiquated's point and question. If the market exists, devs will attempt to capture it. However, if there is data showing that is exists, I'd really like to see it.

Ok, the question is stupid. No company finds their customers, they put out advertisements, and the customers find them.

I will grant you the point, though. You want evidence that there is a market, and I'm sure a corporation would want that evidence before funding such a project too. I hate to keep playing the same cards here, but look at Minecraft.

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 8:15:15 AM#69
Originally posted by sargos7
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by sargos7
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by sargos7
Mmo does not exclude mmorpg. I am saying there is not a single mmo that does not have progression that is successful (as in popular) and that every new mmo is an mmorpg, even though there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression.

Where?

Substantial =/= six guys on a forum. If this market exists, someone will make an attempt to capture it.

Point a game designer at where they are hiding, and wait. Filling a new market is how you create a Behemoth.

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

Actually, I'll second Antiquated's point and question. If the market exists, devs will attempt to capture it. However, if there is data showing that is exists, I'd really like to see it.

Ok, the question is stupid. No company finds their customers, they put out advertisements, and the customers find them.

I will grant you the point, though. You want evidence that there is a market, and I'm sure a corporation would want that evidence before funding such a project too. I hate to keep playing the same cards here, but look at Minecraft.

Minecraft is a good example of how people want a solo or personal group creative LEGO experience. It is not a tasked-based game, it is a tool-filled toy. Yes, players like housing. We know that.

Do you feel that it is compelling enough standalone content to create an entire MMO around?

If you feel that it needs the dungeon, quest and economy components as you describe in your first post, do you not feel those mechanics and systems would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Are you suggesting that a version of UO consisting of nothing but its housing component would do well as an MMO?

"Ok, the question is stupid. No company finds their customers, they put out advertisements, and the customers find them."

If you truly believe that and are not trolling, then advertising and marketing are topics you probably shouldn't try to speak authoritatively on in the future.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 8:20:57 AM#70

Minecraft is a good example of how people want a solo or personal group creative LEGO experience. It is not a tasked-based game, it is a tool-filled toy. Yes, players like housing. We know that.

Do you feel that it is compelling enough standalone content to create an entire MMO around?

If you feel that it needs the dungeon, quest and economy components as you describe in your first post, do you not feel that breaks those mechanics and systems would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Are you suggesting that a version of UO consisting of nothing but its housing component would do well as an MMO?

 

You don't know much about Minecraft.

Why are you saying that including more than one thing in a game would break the mechanics?

Why are you asking me about taking features out of a game?

Are you just trying to find something to argue about or something to use to discredit this idea, or are you actually here to discuss it?

<.<

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 8:23:11 AM#71

"Ok, the question is stupid. No company finds their customers, they put out advertisements, and the customers find them."

If you truly believe that and are not trolling, then advertising and marketing are topics you probably shouldn't try to speak authoritatively on in the future.

 

 

I did not say companies did not study their customers.

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 8:36:40 AM#72
Originally posted by sargos7

Minecraft is a good example of how people want a solo or personal group creative LEGO experience. It is not a tasked-based game, it is a tool-filled toy. Yes, players like housing. We know that.

Do you feel that it is compelling enough standalone content to create an entire MMO around?

If you feel that it needs the dungeon, quest and economy components as you describe in your first post, do you not feel that breaks those mechanics and systems would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Are you suggesting that a version of UO consisting of nothing but its housing component would do well as an MMO?

 

You don't know much about Minecraft.

Why are you saying that including more than one thing in a game would break the mechanics?

Why are you asking me about taking features out of a game?

Are you just trying to find something to argue about or something to use to discredit this idea, or are you actually here to discuss it?

sargos, I'm asking you a valid question. You stated in your first post that by progression, you are speaking solely about combat progression, correct?

So, if you contend that Minecraft is proof that "there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression" and claim Minecraft is that proof, then I'm simply asking if whether or not you l feel that the  mechanics and systems you present in the OP - quests, dungeons, economy - would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Yes, there are mobs to kill in Minecraft, but isn't the combat of Minecraft the most trivial part and least significant to its success?

 

I'm not trying to discredit your ideas at all, rather asking questions to try to understand your idea better, as I'm not seeing the connection you are drawing from one thing to another.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 8:52:29 AM#73

sargos, I'm asking you a valid question. You stated in your first post that by progression, you are speaking solely about combat progression, correct?

So, if you contend that Minecraft is proof that "there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression" and claim Minecraft is that proof, then I'm simply asking if whether or not you l feel that the  mechanics and systems you present in the OP - quests, dungeons, economy - would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Yes, there are mobs to kill in Minecraft, but isn't the combat of Minecraft the most trivial part and least significant to its success?

 

I'm not trying to discredit your ideas at all, rather asking questions to try to understand your idea better, as I'm not seeing the connection you are drawing from one thing to another.

 

 

I'll be fair, and explain to you why it is not a valid question. The Minecraft community has made a mod for an economy, and all of the serious servers have it. The Minecraft community has also created servers and custom maps with quests and dungeons, and many of those are really popular.

Guess what else the Minecraft community has made? It's a mod called MCMMO, which basically adds in skills with levels based on all the actions you can do in the game, such as chopping down a tree increasing woodcutting. And guess how popular it is? It's not. It does have a decent following, but the majority of the community is against it.

How do I know this? Server stats from dozens of different sites who's whole purpose is to provide server stats in an easily filterable and searchable format. The stats are actually taken directly from the servers- it's part of the server code, an option that can be, and typically is enabled. Such stats include what mods the server has. Then there's other stats that are available even without that option enabled, such as the number of players logged in.

 

And just because the combat is not complicated does not mean it is not central to the game. It is. And it can be challenging too.

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 9:13:18 AM#74
Originally posted by sargos7

sargos, I'm asking you a valid question. You stated in your first post that by progression, you are speaking solely about combat progression, correct?

So, if you contend that Minecraft is proof that "there is a substantial community that is crying out for an mmo without progression" and claim Minecraft is that proof, then I'm simply asking if whether or not you l feel that the  mechanics and systems you present in the OP - quests, dungeons, economy - would violate the design choices that have made Minecraft successful?

Yes, there are mobs to kill in Minecraft, but isn't the combat of Minecraft the most trivial part and least significant to its success?

I'm not trying to discredit your ideas at all, rather asking questions to try to understand your idea better, as I'm not seeing the connection you are drawing from one thing to another.

I'll be fair, and explain to you why it is not a valid question. The Minecraft community has made a mod for an economy, and all of the serious servers have it. The Minecraft community has also created servers and custom maps with quests and dungeons, and many of those are really popular.

Guess what else the Minecraft community has made? It's a mod called MCMMO, which basically adds in skills with levels based on all the actions you can do in the game, such as chopping down a tree increasing woodcutting. And guess how popular it is? It's not. It does have a decent following, but the majority of the community is against it.

How do I know this? Server stats from dozens of different sites who's whole purpose is to provide server stats in an easily filterable and searchable format. The stats are actually taken directly from the servers- it's part of the server code, an option that can be, and typically is enabled. Such stats include what mods the server has. Then there's other stats that are available even without that option enabled, such as the number of players logged in.

And just because the combat is not complicated does not mean it is not central to the game. It is.

You're bringing up aspects outside of the combat progression, and I'm not questioning that at all. You're also saying 'the stats show' but not linking to any of them, which is kind of odd but since they supposedly show something unrelated to the topic that's kind of moot.

If you feel those are relevant then we go back to the statement your post is based around:

"A lot of people seem to think that a successful mmo without [combat] progression is not possible. I disagree."

My question is then - Can you link to where you see this abundance of people that believe that, as games such as There, Kaneva, Second Life, and A Tale in the Desert have been around for almost as long as MMOs have.

Now, if you are, in fact, talking about combat-based MMOs, then, again, Minecraft is irrelevant unless you have some kind of data showing that people are playing Minecraft primarily because of the combat. Your contention that combat is core to Minecraft is false, as one can toggle off the combat and enjoy the actual core features just the same. Many do. 

 

So let's nail down what your stance is here so that we're all on the same page:

  • - There is a large group of people that believe that a combat-based mmo without combat progression is not possible.
  • - A combat-based MMO without combat progression can be successful
  • - There is a substantial community that is crying out for an MMO without combat progression

Is that an accurate view of what you are presenting in this thread?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5269

8/30/13 9:24:06 AM#75

Progression is building upon something that contributes to game play. It doesn't have to be combat. I can be economic. It can be trade. Etc.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

8/30/13 9:32:49 AM#76
Originally posted by sargos7

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

Nice try, but you missed. I've been here for years.

Easy dismissal of a question you have no answer to?

Given your previous responses, you feel that the Minecraft audience is big enough to do the job. Okay, how/why does another game company pry the Minecraft fans away from Minecraft? They seem happy enough where they're at--so, as a developer, what more do you offer them to steal the show and the cash?

You can't just offer the same; WoWClone result. You need to offer them the things they already find attractive...plus...??

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1164

8/30/13 9:37:23 AM#77
Originally posted by sargos7

I never once said anything about role playing games. I said mmos. Mmorpgs are massively multiplayer online role playing games, mmos are massively multiplayer online games. Yes, the heart of rpgs is progression, and yes progression appeals to a lot of people, I am not denying that at all. All I am saying is that there is a market for an mmo without progression.

 

Perhaps it is the term successful that you are getting confused with. I am not talking about financially stable, I am talking about popular.

Yup, scrolled up and checked. Still mmoRPG.com.

You are indeed correct, there is a HUGE MOBA market that could be called MMO, that generally lacks progression.

 

Me, I play RPG for character "progression".

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 9:38:30 AM#78

You're bringing up aspects outside of the combat progression, and I'm not questioning that at all. You're also saying 'the stats show' but not linking to any of them, which is kind of odd but since they supposedly show something unrelated to the topic that's kind of moot.

If you feel those are relevant then we go back to the statement your post is based around:

"A lot of people seem to think that a successful mmo without [combat] progression is not possible. I disagree."

My question is then - Can you link to where you see this abundance of people that believe that, as games such as There, Kaneva, Second Life, and A Tale in the Desert have been around for almost as long as MMOs have.

Now, if you are, in fact, talking about combat-based MMOs, then, again, Minecraft is irrelevant unless you have some kind of data showing that people are playing Minecraft primarily because of the combat. Your contention that combat is core to Minecraft is false, as one can toggle off the combat and enjoy the actual core features just the same. Many do. 

 

So let's nail down what your stance is here so that we're all on the same page:

  • - There is a large group of people that believe that a combat-based mmo without combat progression is not possible.
  • - A combat-based MMO without combat progression can be successful
  • - There is a substantial community that is crying out for an MMO without combat progression

Is that an accurate view of what you are presenting in this thread?

 

Toggle off the combat? Are you serious? I'm talking about multiplayer Minecraft, on a server. SMP, as it's called, which stands for survival multi player. That means the game is set in survival mode, aka with combat, and you can't change it. SMP is the most popular type of Minecraft server. Combat is a core part of Minecraft, particularly pvp, although there are also mods that introduce new, more challenging mobs and bosses.

<.<

  sargos7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 57

 
OP  8/30/13 9:47:42 AM#79
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by sargos7

This comment doesn't surprise me at all, considering the date you joined this site. I'm not recommending you become a necromancer but there are plenty of dead debates about this subject on this site. I'm merely bring some fresh meat to the table.

Nice try, but you missed. I've been here for years.

Easy dismissal of a question you have no answer to?

Given your previous responses, you feel that the Minecraft audience is big enough to do the job. Okay, how/why does another game company pry the Minecraft fans away from Minecraft? They seem happy enough where they're at--so, as a developer, what more do you offer them to steal the show and the cash?

You can't just offer the same; WoWClone result. You need to offer them the things they already find attractive...plus...??

Oh, I don't know, maybe real graphics, servers big enough to have thousands of people, combat abilities, all the features that people are making mods for included in the game itself, dungeons, quests, all the minigames, etc etc...

<.<

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/13 10:10:14 AM#80
nm

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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