Trending Games | Pirate101 | World of Warcraft | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Wizard101

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,899,645 Users Online:0
Games:751  Posts:6,268,314
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Subscription vs Free To Play

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
41 posts found
  TheCrow2k

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 956

8/28/13 8:45:37 PM#21
Originally posted by Zaradoom

In my opinion a game will ALWAYS be better if it was designed to be a Sub based game. Let me explain this.

 

If a game wants to launch as a FTP,...

 

developer need to spend alot of time thinking about what features they can "reduce in quality", so a cashshop can offer a fix for the shortcoming. This is actually my number one gripe about FTP. Games designed to be loved by the masses, but features that are disliked just enough to want to spend money to fix it. This simply feels wrong!

 

Their intentions have to be,...

 

focused on creating semi broken / unbalanced aspects to make sure people use the shop.

 

If a game is designed with subs in mind,...

 

the Devs can focus on what players want: Making a great game with features that never feel "wrong" and features that are complete.  If something comes up that sounds great, they can just toss it in and not first think about if they need to keep that shop only.

 

Their intentions have to be,...

 

focused on creating a game that feels awesome from the start and never stops feeling good, so people STAY and pay monthly. If something sounds like an upgrade for a feature they will usually just put it in asap to make people feel good about the game and stay.

 

Another point against FTP is the community for me.

 

I have played about every MMO there was since EQ1 and i jumped ship in the FTP games really quick usually, due to dreadful communities (not always, mind you, but most of the time). If the community was ok the cashshop usually was not.

I have yet to find a FTP game that made me feel like i am playing a well designed game, without having my credit card next to my keyboard all the time.

 
 
 
 

If a game wants to launch as a FTP,...

&

Their intentions have to be,...

Games that Launch as P2P or Microtrans (lets try not to call them F2P) actually dont have to "hold things back" at all, infact the holding back mechanic is generally the realms of games that launches as sub only then transitioned to Microtrans and their first (and poorly conceived) Idea on this road was putting paygates on content (Turbine & Funcom I look at you in particular) with games that launched as Microtrans like Neverwinter, Marvel Heroes, MWO etc (I am aware not all 3 are technically MMO's but its the model that is important).

None of the above 3 games actually have pay gates. instead they offer you the ability to achieve things faster such as in neverwinter buying a bag or companion from the store instead of earning enough Astral Diamonds in game to buy one from the player A/H, or in MH buying a new character to play or costume to wear from the cash shop instead of Earning enough Eternity Splinters to pay for them, or in MWO buying a new mech from the cash shop instead of earning enough cbills in game to purchase it.

Granted some Microtrans games do launch with abherant models but in 90% of cases where the cash shop sucks the actual games themselves suck as well so its no real loss.

Buy 2 Play is another beast entirely and actually my preffered model nowdays, Buy 2 play doesnt need to really put up any roadblocks at all except not allowing players to access expansion pack content if they do not own them whcih given the model of paying for content out right with box prices + expansions makes total sense.

If a game is designed with subs in mind,...

Well I think I managed to Debunk this in the above, if anything some Sub games have become too greedy and now want you to subscribe monthly so they can fund their next expansion, then they want you to pay outright for the expansions which if you think about it is like gating content you already paid for the development of. Then some of them even have the gall to affer you a cash shop....

Their intentions have to be,...

 

"focused on creating a game that feels awesome from the start and never stops feeling good,"

Sorry but you are dreaming.... did SWTOR feel awesome from the start ? did it "never stop feeling good ? was it not designed as a Subscription game ? A Myriad of other games have launched as sub to play that felt very much less than awesome from the start (FFXIV anyone) so yeah. Being subscription based doesnt guarantee anything except that you will be required to pay $10-$20 per month after the first month you paid for (first month is not free people !) in the box price. I can see you want this to be their intention but lets just say their real intention is "to make money from subscriptions" which generally translates to trying to make your trip from level 1 to level cap as slow as possible to keep you subbed as long as possible without making it so slow people give up too early.

Most Sub games dont even give you decent content updates (patches are not content updates, patches is developers fixing the broken game they sold you that you already paid for) for free, instead you pay a sub just to be able to pay the OOTB content & then pay for expansions + subscription to pay any new content. Neverwinter has a massive ammount of content from both users & official channels & it is being added all the time, has for the last 3 month had one large content patch every month, MWO is a bit slower that the previous 2 but they are adding new content & maps all the time. I am happy to kick a bit of money to these microtransaction games because I enjoy them and in all 3 of the games I listed here for the time I have played them and the money I have spent, I have spent far less than i would have had to spend for a box + ongoing sub in a sub game and in NW and MH cases I have had far more new content added for free than I have ever gotten from the developers of a subscription game.

Another point against FTP is the community for me.

Here it is, I always know this is coming. Dreadfull communities abound in every game, the only difference is in Buy2Play and Sub games the trollops usually have to regulate themselves to just within the rules (rules and how moderators/GM's handle them is usually the governing factor) so they can still be offensive but stay just within the rules so they dont get banned (unless mummy and daddy are rich) and lose their accounts, the thing is they are still in Pay 2 Play communities and every now and then they get banned but for the most part the percentage of asshats in any game at launch is about the same. Where in Microtrans/F2P they can be that bit more obnoxious and step over the line of the rules & if they get banned they can just make a new account. In the later scenario they do however still lose anything they bought from the cash shop so it does hurt & anyone who isnt buying from the cash shop is likely a general troll anyway which can be found in any game or internet forum anywhere. The Community itself and the community moderators generally decide how the broader community will act, antisocial NW players are named & shamed ingame then left out in the cold for group runs which more or less wrecks endgame for them so the people who want to actually play NW get on and stay within the rules. Marvel Heroes the reception you will find is much  the same as NWN, people who enjoy the game get on and play with likeminded players while trolls and haters are left unable to really function after mid 30's leveling is done because no one wants to play with them.

In both cases the community has just said no which (if you ever played older MMO's like UO you will know) is always a far more powerful response and sends a far clearer message to the wider community than the developers banning some players. Perhaps your experience is truly your experience and nothing more or perhaps your couple of negative experiences have been compounded by reading about the negative experiences of other players which seems ot happen a lot only you will know, but keep in mind players who complain on forums usually seem like legion but the players who are having fun with a title are generally playing it not moaning about it on the internet.

 

Lastly as I said Buy 2 Play is actually my prefered posion nowdays & I have been having a lot of fun with Payday 2 and Baldurs gate HD online (Even neverwinter Nights Pw's back in the day) and I would absolutely Put down $30-50 for a box price on Neverwinter or Marvel Heroes without hesitation if they were Buy 2 Play. If any of these titles were Buy2Play MMO's and managed to transition their gameplay to the genre then I suspect they would do exceedingly well in that space.

 

if a Studio & Publisher can offer me an MMO with a subscription were I am actually getting something for my subscription beyond simply access to the game I already paid a box price for I am happy to pay a subscription, trouble is with the MMO market foetid and stagnant the way it is today there is no such game, no such game on the horizon and Publishers and studios dont even grasp such a concept.

  Sajman01

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 208

8/28/13 10:14:07 PM#22
The fact that Bill points to GW2 as being one of the better F2P games out there is why I will never touch one again.

From diminishing returns to real time gating to temporary content, it comes as no surprise to me to see ARR booming despite it's rough launch. The quality of the game when you get to play is just so much better.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6829

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

8/28/13 11:19:36 PM#23

I like to look at simple math.If a developer is going to make further content,they need money,they will factor that into the original design and the cost of running the game.

I will use Arena net as the prime example.GW1 was designed to run cost free,full of instances cheap 2d models instead of 3d,example buildings with no insides ect ect.They took some heat and wanted to be with the big boys so set out to tell everyone ,not only did they change but did it better.Nice speech but they did nothing of the sort,they actually found a way to mimic GW1 exactly by doing it slightly different.Then the selling point was that cheaper design was called "dynamic events".Again a nice speech,nice wording of something simple all to get people to accept another GW1.

If a developer has to make a profit from JUST box sales AND finance further content and all it's overhead from that same box sale,how in depth and how hi end is that game going to be?Answer is not very.A developer that does NOT rely on only box sales has the ability to go a little further with it's game,ability to go high end and with more depth and systems.

They all have budgets,there might be slight differences in wages/salaries and overhead but for the most part,they all work under the same conditions.A developer is not going to invest 100 million to get back 110 million and use that same 10 million to finance the company until the next xpac.They all aim for that simple math,a set profit/loss margin and will design and charge for the game accordingly.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  DeanGrey

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 140

8/28/13 11:54:13 PM#24

F2P has allowed me to play games I otherwise never would have. I have been playing APB: Reloaded over a year now because the barrier for entry was so low. I have put more time into APB than I have any other MMO in the last few years, probably more than all of the MMO's I have played in the last two.

I don't think F2P is a dirty word. I think mishandling of a payment model is an issue, not payment models. ESO is one upcoming game that I think is playing dirty. Charging a monthly fee and having a cash shop is wrong. Even if only fluff is sold, what if my playstyle is one that loves fluff and lives for it? You are attacking how I want to play the game despite already taking a monthly subscription from me. Not to mention the $60 box I paid for.

  GameByNight

Columnist / Podcast Host

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 83

8/28/13 11:58:09 PM#25
You guys so much make this column worth it. I got into MMO blogging to start and take part in conversations. PVP and its readers consistently make me smile, agree or disagree :-)

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  Precusor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 4725

Aim Bot

8/29/13 2:01:42 AM#26
Using a buy to play game such as GW2 to further the f2p talking points shows how crappy the f2p model really is. 
  Anthur

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 627

8/29/13 4:16:46 AM#27

Imo there is a market for P2P and F2P MMOs. And of course also B2P. ;)

They are just aimed at different customers. Personally I prefer P2P as I tend to play only one MMO at a time, 15$ is really not the world for me and it is usually much more expensive for me to play a F2P game than to pay those 15$. Considering how much time I spent in MMOs those 15$ are a joke. And those cash shops just break immersion for me. Just like asking me to pay 1$ every 10 minutes when I watch a movie in cinema. No thanks.

But that's just me. There are different people with different preferences and needs. As long as there are a few quality P2P MMOs around to choose from I am happy.

Maybe MMOs should start and offer different servers with different payment models. Why not have F2P and P2P servers ?

  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 336

8/29/13 4:25:20 AM#28

Considering GW2 needs perfect content even more so then a PTP Game to keep players investing later on, it is indeed funny how it is used to present a "FTP"-Cash sho´p done right.

I just went trough the list here at MMORPG and counted the games i have played since 1999. A number of 58 came up. I consider that quite alot, but i am a gamer at heart. Actually the first 7 years, up to mid 2007, i have only played EQ1 and did a 12 month trip to DAOC. All other games started when i left EQ1. That makes 56 different MMOs in only 6 years! Did WoW for about 3 years in between, not quite sure what years, but i had short breaks and always tried new stuff inbetween.

 

So the only 3 games that got me hooked enough used Subs, sure back then FTP was not even there, i give you that. But why do all current games feel so shallow and crappy i ask? I have yet to find a game that offers even remotly as much content as EQ1 does and i am not talking zone content, but features of stuff you can actually DO. Of corse the EQ1 world is like 10times the size of the next biggest game, but that is another topic.

I consider my long gaming list a trial to find something new that suits me and feels right / makes me have fun. Right now i stopped playing new MMOs alltogether since i just can't stand the craptastic FTP games that lack features that have been done 20 years before.

 

Really looking forward to any Sub game coming out and hoping my theory was right and games developed with PTP in mind feel better still. Hard to compare, since nothing PTP came out for a few years haha. Sadly FF does not interest me, but Wildstar and ElderScrolls will come. And then there is EQN and the hope Sony does their FTP model right, just like they do in their other EQ games.

 

Talking about that: Hybrid Sub / FTP without needing to buy ANYTHING if you pay a sub is a totaly ok with me. At least in those games that where developed with PTP in mind...  those few examples with hybrids actually support my theory :-/

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 636

8/29/13 4:37:23 AM#29
Exactly why are you bringing GW2 in "f2p vs subscription" debate? GW2 is not f2p game, as soon as someone pays to enter a game it is no longer f2p. f2p means that players don't have to pay to enter the game and don't have to pay to experience a certain portion of the game; if not the entire game. GW2 is not at all f2p, we are barred from entering the game by a paywall. so if you can bring up several "real life" good f2p mmo then come back to argue. there is only one good f2p mmo out in the market now and that is Rift. Rift alone does not speak for the entire f2p market because it has only started as f2p and no one knows exactly how much it is earning to continue it's "complete f2p" mentality. 

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 636

8/29/13 4:50:29 AM#30
Originally posted by Vorch

GW2 is B2P; NOT F2P.

That isn't a simple difference in symantecs; those are two VERY different models.

 

B2P has a barrier to entry to make the player invested; however, that barrier is the only door. You OWN your character.

F2P has no barrier to entry...essentially an open door policy. However, many times in order to do anything one must pay a fee. You OWN your character; however, you often must pay frequently to experience the game as intended.

P2P has an initial barrier to entry. Then, it adds barriers to entry every month. You never really own your character...you're paying rent.

 

Here's my final argument against P2P:

You can pay 8 bucks a month to watch 75,000 movies and 20,000 tv shows on Netflix.
You can pay 5 bucks a month to play PS+ games for free.
You can pay 6 bucks a month to rent games from gamefly.
B2P and F2P games don't have any fee associated with them.

So why would you pay 15 dollars a month, on top of a 40-60 dollar box fee, to play one game?

 

 

1. I am not into movies or tv show, if any website can give them free to me i will watch them free, i won't ever spend a dime on those stuff.

2. i don't like console, maybe i will use a console if someone gives on free but not spending  dime on it.

3. i don't like renting game and  i am not into console and single player games

4. b2p has a paywall to enter the game as you have mentioned and let's be honest, 99% f2p games are crap. f2p games taunt the player to either spend shit load of money in cash shop or slave themselves in game to buy cash ship item from sellers or leave the game totally.

This is where subscription games come, you pay box price and 1st month is free of charge. 15$ per month starts from 2nd month. and you can just play the game as much as you like as long as you are paying and no player has been given any advantage if they are spending money in cash shop(if the game has any) because everything in a cash shop of subscription game is worthless vanity which are there to milk the idiots(my opinion). on top of that subscription games don't put me in a position to make me feel like i am 2nd class citizen like some f2p games do; like free players can't contact support or ask for help with a ticket or sometimes can't even post bug report in forums. you pay only a meager 15$ per month for top notch support and gameplay experience. of course everything depend on your taste, if you don't think that the game is worth the money just ask your bank to push the publisher for refund. simple. after all you did not like the game, why does it matter if the publisher blacklists your IP or credit card? 

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1367

8/29/13 5:23:35 AM#31

Why pull the GW2 card in F2P - P2P discussion?

GW2 is B2P, thus should not be used as a card in this battle.

I say Bill lost this one by a mile, not one single valid "winning" argument was given based on anything BUT GW2.

 

ALSO, GW2 is the only game currently that does the "no-subscription" (after initial purchase) somewhat right and non-segregating. That makes it 1 in a thousand and it's still not F2P to begin with.

my2c

 

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1933

8/29/13 5:27:56 AM#32

Free to paly is better if the item shop contains nothing but style items that have zero impact on the actual gameplay. Such as with DOTA 2. But 99% of all item shops are different and turn the game into a pay 2 win game.

I don't like "free" games where I'm punished for not paying with having to spend 10 times as much time to level  up, have only 4 slots on the bank and lose any pvp fight because I don't have the pay 2 win equipment.

Because of that I prefer subscription games, where everybody has the same chances and the same game.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  FrinkiacVII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 45

8/29/13 9:43:18 AM#33
I want to point out that Subscription and F2P are not the only business models that have been attempted in games in the past.  In the early pre-historic era, when I was a teenager, we had videogame arcades where they had coin-operated machines that allowed you to play Pac-Man for a quarter.  Then they decided that model was pretty poor and started selling people home systems whereby you'd make the customer assume the cost of manufacturing the games (buy a console) and powering it (plug it in) and then make them pay like $10-$20 for the games they wanted in the form of cartridges.  This was an improvement (for the game companies) because the didn't need to make free-standing pinball machine-sized games and truck them all over the country anymore.  Then people eventually started buying computers and getting games for them on floppy disks, which meant the game consoles had competition now.  But even then, the model was "buy it once, play it as much as you want until you get tired of it".  Then the internet exploded and people could play games with other people via a modem or some such.  This meant people had to have infrastructure in place to support that (which in the early days took the form of servers most often called "Bulletin Boards" as I recall, I remember playing a game called Solar Realms Elite on one in the old days, like 1990).  Pretty soon it became clear that you could make even MORE money if you got people to pay a subscription fee (like magazines had) to keep playing every month.  This was a huge money maker because instead of making something new every few months and trying to get people to buy it (by making it more fun than the last thing you sold them) you could just keep hitting people up for money every month for the right to keep playing the same game you already sold them.  This is the model my beloved City of Heroes originally had whe it was first rolled out.  In the very beginning, you had to BUY CoH in a store and install it, not just download it (or at least, you COULD buy it in a store, I know I did).  So there was an up-front cost AND a monthly fee.  Then the people at Magic the Gathering came out with a videogame version called Magic Online and they found that by selling VIRTUAL product to people in a series of seemingly cheap micro transactions, people spent a LOT more money per month than any subscription fee you could reasonably charge them.  Of course, Magic has a real-world analogue  (the cards) which can actually allow you to collect and maintain some monetary value over time (or think you are at least).   What makes Magic Online so addictive to play that people spend more money on it is 1)they sell product that is randomized (like baseball cards, but there's a game you play with them and some cards are better than others) so you get the random reward factor (see phychology, Skinner, etc) and then 2) the actual cost for one object is so small that you don't generally see or think about the bottom line that much.  Like when people buy a sodapop from a vending machine.  That vending machine probably makes you pay a lot more for a single bottle of soda than you would pay per bottle if you bought an entire case of it at the store, but since the pricetag looks smaller (since it's only ONE bottle of soda afterall) you don't seem to care as much.  As such they end up, over time, selling you lots and lots of product at an inflated price per item because you're buying in piecemeal.  You nickel and dime yourself to death in other words.  However people seem to want to pay for their games, I just want the games themselves to be fun.  If I enjoy it, I'll support it.  If I don't I won't.
 

"Well sure, the FrinkiacVII looks impressive - DON'T TOUCH IT - but I predict that within 100 years computers will be TWICE as powerful, ten THOUSAND times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them." -Prof. Frink

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

8/29/13 8:13:40 PM#34

The best argument in favor of there always being a sub based game is simple and was stated many many years ago.

There is a sucker born every minute, or, a fool and his money are soon parted.

There isn't a single other industry that makes people buy something and then charges them to use it...think about that.

I don't pay a monthly fee to drive my BMW and guess what? The quality is damn good...the idea of subscription = quality has been disproven countless times by poor subscription based games and great quality B2P games like GW1 and GW2 with Neverwinter proving F2P, actual F2P not these FREEMIUM conversions, can be good quality as well. Now add in the fact that many Korean based games are jumping in quality with many western game styles, the F2P market is going to pass the sub market in terms of quality.

So, keep tossing your money away, and be sure to reply with how F2P players are all poor or only want freebies as we laugh at you for clinging onto old lies designed to get more money out of you. Nothing like defending the thief that's stealing from you because its all you know.

  hellrazoromega

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/13
Posts: 1

8/31/13 2:37:24 PM#35

I have to disagree on the last point for Subscription games. Why should the "time rich" get more than others do when as was pointed out we are paying the same amount for the game? Think of it this way, you go to the diner and you only have a half hour for lunch but the guy next to you has an hour, you both get the burger plate and are charged $10 but you get half a burger and half as many fries. In very few other consumer transactions would you take getting less because you did not have as much time as the other guy. The best model to address this are games that give you perks for each month of subscription regardless of how much time you have played--hey you paid your $15 too even if you can only play two hours a week. Those that say the “time rich” should get more are usually the "time rich" or those that play games for a living. If I can only play 2 hours a week why should I pay the same amount so the "time rich" can get more content I may never see because of my real life obligations. I bet they would squawk if they went to a model that charged base on how much you played--say ten to twenty-five cents a hour?

In the end the competition is far stiffer than when WoW was almost the only game in town, back then it was a matter of $15 it was it was no big deal. Now with so many good sub games coming you have to decide if you really want to pay $45 bucks a month or pick and choose the one you want. Sure that has always been the case but now with all the games to choose form it is compounded. Every person who makes the latter choice is a hit to all the other games. Like so many before them I think it is only a matter of about a year before Wildstar and ESO both go F2P—I just think that with so many decent if not great F2P games and stiff sub competitors that it will be hard to maintain a decent sub base. I doubt anyone will ever get to the sub base WoW had at its peak.

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2467

9/01/13 1:37:31 PM#36


Originally posted by Vorch

B2P has a barrier to entry to make the player invested; however, that barrier is the only door. You OWN your character.

F2P has no barrier to entry...essentially an open door policy. However, many times in order to do anything one must pay a fee. You OWN your character; however, you often must pay frequently to experience the game as intended.

P2P has an initial barrier to entry. Then, it adds barriers to entry every month. You never really own your character...you're paying rent.



You dont OWN your character in Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet does.

If ArenaNet decides to shut down the game tomorrow you dont get your character.


Also, what do mean that in Free to play MMOs you have to pay money to experience the game? What is this? It makes no sense.


Or are you just coming up with some imaginary complaint about Free to play MMOs to make them sound worse than Buy to play MMOs(and by extension Guild Wars 2).

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

9/03/13 12:25:06 PM#37
Originally posted by JasonJ

The best argument in favor of there always being a sub based game is simple and was stated many many years ago.

There is a sucker born every minute, or, a fool and his money are soon parted.

There isn't a single other industry that makes people buy something and then charges them to use it...think about that.

I don't pay a monthly fee to drive my BMW and guess what? The quality is damn good...the idea of subscription = quality has been disproven countless times by poor subscription based games and great quality B2P games like GW1 and GW2 with Neverwinter proving F2P, actual F2P not these FREEMIUM conversions, can be good quality as well. Now add in the fact that many Korean based games are jumping in quality with many western game styles, the F2P market is going to pass the sub market in terms of quality.

So, keep tossing your money away, and be sure to reply with how F2P players are all poor or only want freebies as we laugh at you for clinging onto old lies designed to get more money out of you. Nothing like defending the thief that's stealing from you because its all you know.

I think you are operating under a misconception. Your are not actually "buying" anything in a F2P game and under a B2P model all you are actualy "buying" is the physical disk (game client). Unless the game has an "offline" mode, all you actualy "own" is a fancy coaster. The company owns the servers, all the data bits on them and all the IP associated with them. This has been well established legaly. You access them at thier leisure and such access can be removed at any time they choose.  If you actualy bother to read the TOS of the agreement you click on when setting up a game, that is spelled out quite clearly. Unless they've structured and marketed thier service in such a way that they are selling you "digital property" and the only one that I can think of to which that may apply is some of the "real estate" "sold" in 2nd Life.....then you actualy "own" nothing, you are simply operating upon a false impression.

Your BMW analogy doesn't really apply well here. What you are paying for here is an entertainment service, not durable goods. A closer analogy would be season tickets to a ball game or a season pass to an amusement park or maybe membership in AAA, if you want to stay with the automotive theme. You are paying for the company to provide you a service. The "product" is the value you've derived from using that service. In the F2P model, they give the you free access to the park but charge you for "premium items" like getting to go on the really cool ride, getting to skip the long lines, use of lockers and towels in that water park, etc. In the sub-model they charge a flat entry fee for the "season" but you can enjoy all the services and amenities in the park as little or as much as you want.

You may find, for yourself, that the F2P model tends to be a much better deal for you. However, that really has more to do with the pricing and how you as an INDIVIDUAL tend to use the amenities, not the payment model itself.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

9/03/13 12:36:00 PM#38
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I think you are operating under a misconception. Your are not actually "buying" anything in a F2P game and under a B2P model all you are actualy "buying" is the physical disk (game client). Unless the game has an "offline" mode, all you actualy "own" is a fancy coaster.

Your BMW analogy doesn't really apply well here. What you are paying for here is an entertainment service, not durable goods.

 I think you are operating under a misconception as well.

Nobody says you are "buying" anything with a F2P game...we ARE saying you are "buying" something with a Subscription based game AND are being charged to USE IT. THAT is what is being said here.

As for the other part quoted, fine...I will play your game of trying to rip apart the analogy of buying something and being charged to use it by attempting the deflect by trying to limit to "entertainment"....

I just bought a Blueray of a movie, which is ENTERTAINMENT...do you think I am also going to pay to be able to watch it again? There is no defense you can give for a subscription that cannot be torn apart. Move along, you can try to defend subscriptions all you want, you will only prove the opposing side correct more and more because its an antiquated idea created in a different time where none of the reasons for it still apply or cannot be applied to F2P games.

  Satyros

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/13
Posts: 39

9/15/13 8:43:59 AM#39
Originally posted by Vorch

GW2 is B2P; NOT F2P.

That isn't a simple difference in symantecs; those are two VERY different models.

 

B2P has a barrier to entry to make the player invested; however, that barrier is the only door. You OWN your character.

F2P has no barrier to entry...essentially an open door policy. However, many times in order to do anything one must pay a fee. You OWN your character; however, you often must pay frequently to experience the game as intended.

P2P has an initial barrier to entry. Then, it adds barriers to entry every month. You never really own your character...you're paying rent.

 

Here's my final argument against P2P:

You can pay 8 bucks a month to watch 75,000 movies and 20,000 tv shows on Netflix.
You can pay 5 bucks a month to play PS+ games for free.
You can pay 6 bucks a month to rent games from gamefly.
B2P and F2P games don't have any fee associated with them.

So why would you pay 15 dollars a month, on top of a 40-60 dollar box fee, to play one game?

 

 

 

Because it's worth it. The content justifies the price. 

It has to, otherwise noone will pay. And thats exactly the reason why I strongly believe subscriptions is the way to go when your goal is making the best game possible.

                                                                                                                                                                           

On another topic.. subscription and cash shop should not, ever, be in the same box. Ever.

ESO will suffer because of this, unless they come up with something new and groundbreaking.

 
  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1032

9/15/13 9:47:07 AM#40
In the west, the vast majority of F2P games make money via subs. So, the only real difference between a F2P and P2P game is that you have to pay first in the P2P, and they convince you to pay after in a F2P.
3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search