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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P creating Free to Cheat players

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  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6122

8/25/13 1:06:55 AM#41
Originally posted by Arthasm
I've cheated/hacked/exploited in almost every F2P games I played. I didn't care if I got ban. No problem, I can make new account and continue. The sad story was I never get banned. The more sadest story is - 99% people I knew or met in-game were doing the same or worse. If you think it's not fair play, think twice. You're just minority in world full of "hackers". Everyone would do anything just to get some items for free from cash shop. If you not agree, well there is always door to publisher/devs forum for QQ.

It's not really different in P2P either.  NC has one of the worst reputations for allowing hacks and bots.  They do a token ban sweep every year and get rid of some accounts, but that's it.  They don't like to ban paying customers.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/25/13 1:23:31 AM#42
Originally posted by nolic1

Yeah ok F2P is easier to get accounts but it still does not mean that P2P does not have cheaters as well.

 

No one said they don't exist in P2P games. The amount of bots playing in WoW's BGs can attest to it alone.

 

But if you found who was using those bots and banned them, they would be quite upset. Not only because they bought those bots, but they lost all their money and time.

 

No commitment = zero consequence = don't care = F2P model.

 

Devs that push the F2P model are showing they only care about the money. Not a quality product, because a quality product would remove the players that spoil the game from those who do pay and not cheat (and there's more that don't cheat than do, and it's not just because of losing accounts, it's because if you cheat why even play games? There's god modes in offline games for just that).

 

The real underlining issue is the guys that were once practicing piracy can't these days. So the dudes that did are looking for ways to play equally free. You'll notice they don't know beans about quality production values as they're used to cracked games (which are buggy). They just want what they want for free and zero commitments. They get into games and piss and crap in them. They then find the various exploits to make sure they're in god mode in an online game. If they are banned, they're used to it, since they're used to buggy cracked offline games.

 

So gamers are faced twofold with two problems: greedy game companies and greedy gamers. Both exploiting each other, and in return the average not cheating and paying gamer gets the crap from both ends. This is why I'm getting more turned off on games in general these days. The publishers don't seem to care but for their profits, and gamers don't care because things now are free and practically worthless in what they offer.

 

WTB a publisher that cares anymore about what they craft, not claim they do and play with gamers who'd actually play not bot or buy their way to OMG levels in MMORPGs.

  User Deleted
8/25/13 1:39:57 AM#43
OP, F2P gaming by itself has nothing to do with the increased popularity of cheats and hacks in games. It is directly related to the personal character of the player base. From my perspective we live in a time where the basic idea seems to be that you can do anything you want as long as you can get away with it and you will be rewarded for doing so. The needed tools for hacking and cheating various games are far more commonly available on the internet than at any other time in history and since the typical development team's objective (be they in on it or not) is to make money for some one rather than insuring integrity of play it is tolerated and slap on wrist punished to keep dollars flowing in. Why is this a surprise to anyone? It will occur in any game business model. The growing popularity of P2W is an acknowledgement of the fact that it has become accepted in the industry.
  Drakephire

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 414

8/25/13 1:53:01 AM#44

I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is supposed to be.

Does the OP wish to eliminate all f2p games? If so, the cheaters are just going to live in the p2p space and cheat there.

 

If you don't like cheaters in f2p games. Don't play them.  Personally, cheaters have zero effect on me in the games that I play.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/25/13 2:12:03 AM#45
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
OP, F2P gaming by itself has nothing to do with the increased popularity of cheats and hacks in games. It is directly related to the personal character of the player base. From my perspective we live in a time where the basic idea seems to be that you can do anything you want as long as you can get away with it and you will be rewarded for doing so. The needed tools for hacking and cheating various games are far more commonly available on the internet than at any other time in history and since the typical development team's objective (be they in on it or not) is to make money for some one rather than insuring integrity of play it is tolerated and slap on wrist punished to keep dollars flowing in. Why is this a surprise to anyone? It will occur in any game business model. The growing popularity of P2W is an acknowledgement of the fact that it has become accepted in the industry.

 

False.

 

Gamers cheated from the bad old days, too. Before you cheated to feel powerful, to have fun racing through the roadblocks and play with dev tools. Didn't hurt anything as it was just you goofing off.

 

MMORPGs for example exploiting and cheating hurts the game and players, as it's not about you anymore.

 

There's a severe disconnect between offline goofing off and onlining it. Like people can't distinguish right from wrong. No morals (and by how too many gamers behave and talk, I would say they were raised in barns too). It's "gimme gimme gimme" and that's that hardcore gamer to the n00b. There's no distinction in an industry that the gamer will even protect on moral issues itself (do you truly think negative environments don't affect people? But no, don't regulate this industry over it, because my "fun" will be taken away. What fun? Pulling wings off of flies? Destroying things other people build because a game is labeled "PvP"?). Yeah, it's a lot of problems looking for easy scapegoats.

 

 

  lasttime

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 52

8/25/13 2:23:22 AM#46
This isn't exactly cheating but another excellent example of the combination of f2p and lack of policing are mobas. The most disgusting example of this is lol of course. Wanting you to go broke over every new skin that comes out every 3 days all the while being so damn lazy they ask other players to take care of issues. You are asked to agree to a "summoners Code" and yet it apparently has no meaning.(Unless of course they want to make an example out of a pro just to make it look like thr staff doesn't just sit at desks twiddling their thumbs)
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/25/13 2:52:33 AM#47
Originally posted by lasttime
This isn't exactly cheating but another excellent example of the combination of f2p and lack of policing are mobas. The most disgusting example of this is lol of course. Wanting you to go broke over every new skin that comes out every 3 days all the while being so damn lazy they ask other players to take care of issues. You are asked to agree to a "summoners Code" and yet it apparently has no meaning.(Unless of course they want to make an example out of a pro just to make it look like thr staff doesn't just sit at desks twiddling their thumbs)

 

EvE is an example of a P2W game. As a company CCP has it's needs to make money. So they figured out some ways. The memo explaining this scheme was leaked, and the players staged an ingame riot over it and started to unsub. CCP almost lost the farm, having to fire employees due to it all, to stay afloat.

 

Now CCP isn't innocent. Like EQII the devs were ingame helping certain corps (guilds) with special things that no one else had or had access too. Pure favoritism. After that staged protest, CCP had to make some decisions. Continue making EvE or shutting it down as they no longer had control of the design process anymore. They decided to continue making the game. The result is EvE is tailored around one main corp and how it plays because not only is it one of the largest in the game (it's offsite community is fairly large), it's because of the $$$$$ it pumps into the game monthly. Parasitic relationship (the CSM is a joke, it's full of paid for Goons, literally). Those playing for PLEX don't care. Those n00bs starting the game are unaware what they gotten themselves into. CCP is still in business. Goons have their bragging rights.

 

It's still sleazy.

  spizz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2587

8/25/13 6:48:12 AM#48
Originally posted by LogicLester

Gamers, and MMO players especially, have always had a good percentage of cheaters, exploiters, players who seek out bugs or even use hacks to gain advantage in the game.  With developers always having to create new mechanics to stop them, or police the game.  But it seems with the recent surge in F2P games that this is changing.

 

Now it would seem the cheaters are the majority, look in any forum or chat complaining about exploits and invariably the attitude isn't "damn those cheaters are ruining the game" it's "damn, I wish I could have cheated too!".  In fact the developers of these F2P games seem to actually be embracing the cheaters, so long as it gets them more money.  The most recent example being Neverwinter (again, and it should be noted that in that instance very few of the exploiters actually had any action taken against them beyond the rollback itself).  And the developers do the absolute minimum to combat these cheaters now, because that costs development time/money.  To the point now where they're congratulating them.

 

Now I really don't care about the impact of the exploit, in this case maybe it will hurt the game economy in the long run, and maybe it diminishes the "achievement" of having gotten that mount legitimately.  But what it does show is how quickly the players rush to exploit any bug found in these games.  And it's no longer just the few cheaters anymore, it's nearly every player.  When someone says they didn't exploit it, even though being able to, they're met with incredulity, "why not??".

 

And I have to ask myself.  Why not?  The fact is these "free" to play games create a situation where it's players vs. developers.  With the developers trying to spend as little as they possibly can creating the game while squeezing every penny out of the players for the entertainment their game provides.  And the players trying to squeeze every bit of entertainment out of the game at the minimal cost to them.  It's adversarial, and it's destroying any sense of acheivement left to gaming, in my opinion.

 

There's no joy to working hard and having fun with friends, or even strangers, to achieve some game goal anymore, it's just a race to see who can get to the goal fastest, whether by purchase or by cheat.

F2P games not only create a "free to cheat players" they create a "throw away mentality", always looking for the next game in short time aka game hopper.

F2P games create aswell more "an anonymous community" and such a business modell actually destroys the quality of a long term community. Because with a non existing subscription a lot of players are attracted which in the end do not identify that much with the game and community.

It is similar in the FPS genre, on public servers there is less teamplay, less communication and less identification with the teammates in comparison if they all belong to a squad/guild. There is a diffference in the quality of the community and a difference in gameplay quality.

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

8/25/13 7:55:25 AM#49

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Nothing except human nature, which is a powerful argument in and of itself. While there is no direct corelation, f2p certainly sets up the potential for more cheating, due to the lack of consequences and/or personal investment, and that kind of potential is rarely left unfulfilled. It may not quite be automatic, but it happens enough that it functionally may as well be.

 

A potential is not a fact, yet people in this thread try to convice everyone that it is, because of their mirco experiences like "my friend", or "everyone I know".. someone must know many millions of people to do such bold statements.

In real world, not imagination, I don't see any relation, WoW, a subscription game is probably the most cheated one I ever saw because of it's popularity and payment system never mattered to anyone. Since the beginning internet was full of bots for this game, never seen so many different bots and gold selling for any other game.

Size of the game and popularity is what matters. Even with the mentality that I can do it so I will do it, you won't waste your effort to hack a game just for the heck of it and if you do, it is a rare case and you aren't really breaking anyone's game with it.

It's like giving two options for a thief - you can go to a place, where entrance fee is 15$ but you can steal a cake over there, or you can go to a place with no entrance fee to steal a piece of crap that is laying there. What will logic say now?

 

Originally posted by sunshadow21

The difference is that in a p2p game, it's actually takes effort, intent, and willingness to face potential consequences; this keeps it from running too rampant even if it doesn't remove it entirely. It remains limited to a few dedicated, and usually large, operations that even if they aren't removed, can be reasonably easy to contain; in some cases, the people running the operation will even do the containment themselves to avoid too large of a backlash. F2p has no such concerns making it less protitable for the big buys to do it,but much easier for the average player, making it not only harder to control, because instead of having to monitor 2 or 3 big, obvious operations, you have to monitor thousands of individuals and their individual actions, but also harder to stop, because even if you catch it, there usually isn't as much you can do about it. Also, because it's more likely to be smaller scale, individual actions causing the problem, the people doing them are far less likely to notice or care enough to self police themselves to contain the worst of the abuses.

 

Since no one reads what I write here anyway, and people keep placing arguments I already countered, instead of trying to counter my counter-arguments, so TLDR; POPULARITY is bigger factor than the fact "I'll cheat because I can".

Cheaters always pick a popular game first, no matter payment method. There is little satisfaction in achieving something by cheating, it is all about showing off, when you cheat, process doesn't matter, just the fact that you going to be better than anyone else with no effort. And you pick the biggest community to show off in, not the one that is easier to hack.

 

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal


Lol, it is common sense no matter how you look at it.   If your game has a good reason to cheat and you have no means control the players because they have no personal investment your going to have cheaters and the like.

 

How many man hours is your company going to spend stopping gold spammers and cheaters who are just a new email account from coming back?

 

Common sense is that you don't steal a piece of crap because it is there and no one is watching, you go for the cake. And the second sentence could mean p2p company as well.

 

Originally posted by Arthasm
I've cheated/hacked/exploited in almost every F2P games I played. I didn't care if I got ban. No problem, I can make new account and continue. The sad story was I never get banned. The more sadest story is - 99% people I knew or met in-game were doing the same or worse. If you think it's not fair play, think twice. You're just minority in world full of "hackers". Everyone would do anything just to get some items for free from cash shop. If you not agree, well there is always door to publisher/devs forum for QQ.

 

You are the problem here, why are you complaining? Start from yourself. 99% of people you know, oh my good thats about 500k worth of subs! You do realise that whether you like it or not, it is in your nature, to gather people with the same interest around you. It is not conscious decision, you are doing it instinctively.

 


Originally posted by spizz

F2P games not only create a "free to cheat players" they create a "throw away mentality", always looking for the next game in short time aka game hopper.

 

Ok, I'm going to actually back my opinions up with some proff, not just my imagination like everyone else here.

Just type random stuff in google, like cheating forum pve pvp etc. Pick any site, and see it there is any discrimination between payment systems... most popular two games are mostly the P2P WoW and B2P GW2 which is pretty ironic seeing this thread.

Also take into account that there are gazillions of F2P games and much less P2P.

 

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

8/25/13 8:44:29 AM#50

Sorry man, you are totally discounting the financial benefits to cheating in "F2P" games, in ways that are not even possible in P2P games.

As I mentioned before, people hacked/exploited the hell out of PS2 and NWO, both recently released games by more or less mainstream studios.  They did it to make money (by selling exploited currency for real money and for getting free stuff from the cash shop), sometimes a lot of money. Why? Because the cash shop and RL currency buying systems made it possible,

And with a "F2P" game, there was no use banning people, because they popped right back. Even when the companies bothered to ban anyone, which was practically never.

And there are tons of other F2P games, both Asian imports and not, with the same exact problems. (AoW was also bad)

And that does not even touch on the bots/goldspamming problems, which are FAR worse in F2P games.

Sure, that stuff shows up in P2P games too, but not nearly as much and people there actually get banned (because the CS is usually better), and with a client to buy, it slows them down.

 

You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that there is simply more of the "bad behaviors" in F2P games because:  more people play them, there is no meaningful penalty for getting caught cheating, there are financial incentives to cheating in F2P games with cash shops that are not there in P2P games, and in general, P2P game companies run a tighter ship and do better CS to combat all that stuff.

Sorry if I don't believe cheating is as bad or worse in P2Ps than F2Ps, because that has not been the case in every single MMO I have ever played.

  5Luck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 184

8/25/13 11:32:03 AM#51

I would add that the real connection is that F2P are better suited to "novice" hackers as a way to learn how to cheat as a platform to -reach- better "paying" game markets such as P2P or the larger F2P games.

 

Since in the end a real hacker wants to earn burn or spurn. Earn being the 1st.

 

Look at it from a buisness model stand point. 1st you need to make a market (earn)then that market becomes flooded and less can be made(burn) then one needs to usher the "farm animals" to the next game(spurn) or create a new untapped market

  wildclaw

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/05
Posts: 47

9/02/13 8:06:09 AM#52

Essentially, a lot of F2P games are pay2cheat to begin with. So it isn't really strange that those games turn people into cheaters. They are simply designed to make people want to cheat. Of course, you don't call it cheating as it is embarrassing. I mean, just imagine if cashshops instead of listing "1000 gold", more correctly listed "Cheat Code: 1000 gold". Imagine the outrage among all the closet cheaters.

And unfortunately it has been spreading somewhat to the B2P and P2P games as well. But it isn't really a gaming phenomena alone. The acceptance of cheating has exploded in the last 20 years. I would say that social acceptance of cheating is at an 80+ year high in the West.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

9/04/13 12:43:52 PM#53
Originally posted by spizz

F2P games create aswell more "an anonymous community" and such a business modell actually destroys the quality of a long term community. Because with a non existing subscription a lot of players are attracted which in the end do not identify that much with the game and community.

 

Yeah.

Lucky for me. I am not looking for a long term community in games.

  gamesrfun

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/09
Posts: 130

9/04/13 8:01:13 PM#54

Well, technically it is not the F2P that creates cheating.  

It is the cash shops attached to the F2P model.  If F2P games were completely free very few people would bother cheating.

 

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

9/04/13 11:03:21 PM#55
Originally posted by gamesrfun

Well, technically it is not the F2P that creates cheating.  

It is the cash shops attached to the F2P model.  If F2P games were completely free very few people would bother cheating.

 

If F2P games were completely free, no company would make or release them.

  Magicabbage

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/11
Posts: 95

9/04/13 11:11:58 PM#56
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Mendel
It's an extreme stretch to associate a revenue model with player behavior.   They are two independent variables.

 

No it's not.

 

If you have to spend 60 bucks to get a new account your less likely to do shit to get you banned.  in WoW I have all the expansions.  I would be pretty pissed if I lost that account.  If for some reason I was banned in NeverWinter where I spent nothing I wouldn't care as much.

you might not be dumb, but your logic sure is. WoW has been hacked and there are so many cheaters on that game they could start there own game. oh btw it's NOT free to play. You pay for it and people hack that game to death. So people don't care whether it's free to play or not they care that it's easy to hack your account and the servers in general.

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