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  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 645

8/24/13 3:26:13 PM#21
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

A F2P game, you can play for FREE

A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

"0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

Thing is, that all your  rhetoric bears no resemblance to the reality I experience playing both, GW2 and Rift - if anything, the F2P game, Rift, is more completely playable without spending a dime than GW2 is...and they both have the same exact chest + key gambling mini game... except in Rift, the keys drop far more frequently - I have zero unopened chests in Rift but I have a whole shit-pile of them in GW2. Walks like a duck...

Now in WOW, which I regretfully must admit I played recently out of expansion curiosity, there are no chest + key gambling minigames... nor is the vanity cash shop accessible within the game as is the case in GW2, Rift, Neverwinter, etc. No in-game cash shop... mo key + chest crap... no duck walking here.

The resemblance is not in the financial model it's in the things that they have in common while you play the game long after the "entry fee" is forgotten.

And dude, ease off on the condescension unless you actually do want us to get back into it... just saying.

 

Thing is, just because GW2 has keys ... doesn't mean all games would. Yes, from your experiences and the games you played, I suppose you could see it like this. However, you have to remember, every game is different. 

I personally have yet to play a F2P game that required me to HAVE to spend any money, though I admit I spent tons on Mabinogi lol. I also use to play the first Guild Wars, and again, never had to spend a dime.

TERA on the other hand is the game that pissed me off to no end on the P2P payment model. TERA will be my last P2P game. I refuse to spend that kind of money.

Also, with as much as I knew about the industry at the time, I should have seen it coming. Should not have fallen for it. I think I spent like over $200 on TERA.

Now we can all claim that ESO will be different, but no one actually knows for sure. I rather not take the chance. I don't see P2P doing well anymore.

Sorry for being condescending, I was mostly just being sarcastic and joking around with your comment. I just really think it's kinda silly argument to make.

Every game is different. That we can agree on.

Your Mabinogi example is actually very typical. We all THINK we're going to play a F2P game and never spend a dime but the only time that happens, in my experience, is when we actually don't like the game - as was the case with me and Neverwinter - 2 weeks, not a dime spent, and uninstalled from my hard drive.

If you actually like the F2P game, they will get you and you're likely to spend as much in it as you would have if it'd been a sub game. It's not just a matter of the high-rolling whales subsidizing us all: we're all susceptible to their in-game marketing... anyone who's gone to Costco to buy a turkey and has walked out with a turkey, a coffee maker and a lifetime supply of paper towels can tell you that.

I also tried Tera but I also left that one quickly--nothing to do with the sub. I just seem to have an aversion to over-the-top graphics, stories and packs of critters eastern MMOs all seem so fond of... I'm a cultural chauvinist I guess.

I don't know if ESO will be different. I do know that they have a couple of things--especially 3-sided RVR in a gigantic persistent zone--that interest me a lot... + I've been playing TES since Arena so the game world and system is familiar. I would play it regardless of financial model.

I play them all, lol - just another MMO junkie. But I do know from my own personal experience that if I like an MMO and stick around, I'm just as likely to spend the same $$ on a F2P, B2P or P2P one. At least in a P2P one They're doing the budgeting for me 

Right, however, I also played mabinogi for 3 - 4 years with out spending a dime. It was only the first year i really spent a lot on it. 

Also, paying for something is my decision. If you are unable to play a free to play game with out spending money, then you have a shopping problem. Kinda like my mom, she can't play facebook and iphone app games with out spending money on the ones she likes.

I also didn't mention like the 30 other F2P games I have played and didn't spend a cent on them. That is because I either could not at the time or didn't feel it was worth it. The great thing about that is, YOU are the one who decides if it's worth it. It's not like the company forces you to pay.

As for the budgeting, I can see how for someone who may spend a lot of money on F2P games or B2P games may like a P2P more. My mom just kinda learned to stay away from those games if you can consider spending money on dragon city staying away lol. -.-

I personally don't have anything against a P2P model itself. I just don't like that there is a HIGH chance all that money will be wasted in the end just for the game to go F2P later on.

As for your costco reference .. I get ya. You are right. In free to play MMO games when a new pet comes out ... like a dragon ... eye turn bright and shiny .. mouth opens wide ... must. ... buy.

*shrugs* If i spend money though, I really don't mind as long as I am getting something I want. P2P however, you really don't know till you buy it. Which sucks.

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 645

8/24/13 3:32:17 PM#22
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

 

Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

 

What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

 

Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

You said F2P = B2P.

Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

 

The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

I think I'll go with Mike. 

umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

 

Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

8/24/13 3:34:22 PM#23
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

I don't make a differentiation between the two really.  A game is either sub-free or sub-locked in my world.  Sub-locked games are not all the same to me either.  Most have secondary revenue sources like EVE's PLEX, micro-transactions (web or ingme), content gates/DLC costs like box fees and xpacs, and other such stuff.  The thing that binds them all together is you need to have a subscription to access the service.  Sub-free games have all those same trappings but don't require a subscription.

So yeah, GW2 is pretty much the same as Tera, Rift, TSW or Neverwinter to me on paper at least.  In practice that up front fee means more perks are open from the get go.  In a F2P game you might start with a couple character slots.  In the B2P game I get more at the start.

Content gating exists in both payment models.  If you don't buy the xpac in either game you can't play that content.  Again, not all sub-games do that, but not all sub-free games do either.  I don't pay extra to see all of Tera or Rift just like some sub games include all their content for the sub-price. If you consider lockboxes content gating then we'll just have to disagree.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 874

8/24/13 3:41:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by cybersrs
Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

 

If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

 

 

3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

 

The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

Actually Wildstar praised ANet with their model and said they made phnominal success.  They chose not to do it because they did not want to deal with the hassle of figuring out what to put in a CS that would sell.

P2P is the lazy way out of making a profit which could or could not bite em in the ass later down the road if people leave in droves that is a trend with every P2P themepark game that all of which have converted over to F2P or B2P.  TERA, SWTOR, Rift, DDO, LotRO, The Secret World... think that covers em all.  I can't think of a single themepark game that hasn't dropped their sub model besides WoW.  I doubt Wildstar will be any different nor ESO.

Summer is ending so naturally companies are advertising their game.  Expansions are nothing new and in fact expected.  Sales might be down but P2P MMOs are not different.  Both with have a huge influx/pike at launch and then downgrades from there and stabilize.

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 874

8/24/13 3:44:04 PM#25
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

Because there complete different beasts.  Just compare Neverwinter to GW2 and you have your answer.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3743

8/24/13 4:35:41 PM#26
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

 

Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

 

What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

 

Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

You said F2P = B2P.

Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

 

The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

I think I'll go with Mike. 

umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

 

Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3743

8/24/13 4:37:18 PM#27
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

Because there complete different beasts.  Just compare Neverwinter to GW2 and you have your answer.

Yes. GW2 is a good game and  NW sucks...your point?

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 757

8/24/13 4:44:38 PM#28
Originally posted by cybersrs
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by cybersrs
Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

 

If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

 

 

3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

 

The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

Greed?

Do you have a clue of the costs to make such a game?? IS 15 BUCKS to much if so its time for a new hobby then, because I know what it takes, game engines cost if you buy one $ 1500 out of box, then if you have to make one you have to pay people, then each piece of software 3ds max 4k, for each person. Photoshop 1k each person. So if you have a big team that adds up, each mod you need for normal mapping , any mods for 3ds max, animation software.  4k each person. Now the list goes on, now you get to pay each member to your team...... Advertising cost, over head, so again, were is this so called Greed crap....

 

 

 

Kids today have no clue the work that it takes to build such a game or the over all costs to make at all.... Get a job and find out what it takes to work for a living, because thats what we do when making games, we actually work..!!!

  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/24/13 4:48:54 PM#29
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

 

Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

 

What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

 

Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

You said F2P = B2P.

Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

 

The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

I think I'll go with Mike. 

umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

 

Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

That guy is an idiot.  If SWTOR had been B2P, then EA would have lost millions upon millions of dollars.  Lets just say I am not shocked you value his opinion....

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 757

8/24/13 4:51:44 PM#30
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

 

Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

 

What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

 

Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

You said F2P = B2P.

Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

 

The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

I think I'll go with Mike. 

umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

 

Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

 

 

 

That comment makes no sense at all, if he is one he would know the ins and out alot more, i'm a gamer and then become DEV , I thought I knew it all as a gamer and realized real fast I didn't know jack shit..  I see the work that is put in to games and the time it takes and the bullshit we have to deal with....   Yes he should come to you with questions , like what do you like in a game etc , but no one person likes the same game, and it shouldn't be justa  job to him, if thats the case he is in the wrong field.  

 

Most gamer's turned  DEVS do it because they love what they do and make what they make because they love it, work at a job you hate its the same if I hated a game I was working on , which I have AAA company and left, went to indies and have not turned back since.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3743

8/24/13 5:54:58 PM#31
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Iselin

Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

 

Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

 

What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

 

Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

You said F2P = B2P.

Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

 

The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

I think I'll go with Mike. 

umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

 

Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

 

 

 

That comment makes no sense at all, if he is one he would know the ins and out alot more, i'm a gamer and then become DEV , I thought I knew it all as a gamer and realized real fast I didn't know jack shit..  I see the work that is put in to games and the time it takes and the bullshit we have to deal with....   Yes he should come to you with questions , like what do you like in a game etc , but no one person likes the same game, and it shouldn't be justa  job to him, if thats the case he is in the wrong field.  

 

Most gamer's turned  DEVS do it because they love what they do and make what they make because they love it, work at a job you hate its the same if I hated a game I was working on , which I have AAA company and left, went to indies and have not turned back since.

And you develop what type of game exactly? There are a lot of sub-genres within the broad category of "games developer." Just because you know something about how one particular type is put together doesn't mean anything about your knowledge of genres you don't work in. It's like expecting a podiatrist to know about brain surgery.

The poster I was responding to just threw out the developer card to try to give some extra weight to his opinion. My response was directed at that.

  jerlot65

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/08
Posts: 802

8/24/13 6:00:20 PM#32
Originally posted by cybersrs
Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

That may be because GW 2 is still selling copies and are rolling in it with box sales.  No matter how great the game is they will need to start to rely on cash shops to keep going.

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 645

8/24/13 8:07:44 PM#33
Originally posted by Iselin

It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.

As for B2P is a F2P variant? I guess if you really want to put it that way, that is fine. Just keep in mind that B2P, F2P, and P2P describes the business model, and not what the game feels like or plays like. Which is pretty much what I am trying to point out. You can say a B2P feels like a F2P that you paid a box price for, but you really can't say B2P is literally F2P. Saying B2P is a F2P variant is stating a fact, which makes you wrong. Saying a B2P feels like a F2P variant is an opinion. However, maybe I am just being too picky?

I personally have worked on an MMORPG in the past, not a very popular one and I only worked on it for a short period of time as a temp dev I suppose you could say. It's a free to play, 100%. No cash shop, no catches. Though the game sucks rofl. I stopped helping with development is it felt like it wasn't going any where. It's still in alpha and believe it's been over 20 years -.- It had a very mature player base, mostly all role players.

I try not to post any of the games I work on. It becomes to much of a hassle when people start asking question XD.

Though I can tell ya, I started off in the modding community. Mostly Half-Life and counter-strike mapping. Then of course started working on the source engine when half-life 2 was released. Eventually I decided to go to college. They teach a lot about every aspect of developing a game at the art institute. So I learned aspects of development that I personally don't even work in.

As for it being just a job for me? Naaa, I do it for fun. I made more money in my last profession in Telecommunications. :3 Being a game dev though is a lot more fun, and a lot less stressful. Just that makes it worth it.

  User Deleted
8/24/13 10:11:46 PM#34

Ugh, please no.  No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.

If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.

Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.

 

My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.

 

Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs.  Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.

 

With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)

 

So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do.  No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price.  Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5191

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

8/24/13 10:18:03 PM#35
i think the GW2 model would fit this game perfectly specially since it stays true to the TES franchise model. But i might try it if they dont add a cash shop. I'll have a hard time alternating my one and only subscription between WoW, XIV, and WildStar(if they allow me to turn off telegraphs).

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Vorch

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 771

8/24/13 10:20:59 PM#36
Originally posted by Strangerous

Ugh, please no.  No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.

If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.

Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.

 

My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.

 

Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs.  Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.

 

With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)

 

So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do.  No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price.  Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)

Where is all this crap coming from...seriously.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World

51 Servers and going to china soon....tired of this crap.

"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5191

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

8/24/13 10:27:05 PM#37
Originally posted by Vorch
Originally posted by Strangerous

Ugh, please no.  No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.

If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.

Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.

 

My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.

 

Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs.  Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.

 

With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)

 

So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do.  No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price.  Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)

Where is all this crap coming from...seriously.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World

51 Servers and going to china soon....tired of this crap.

he doesnt play the game. He just follow the "im so cool bro" hater fanclub wagon on the forums. Also look at his post, he doesnt want a B2P model with decent cash shop. But he totally wants a P2P with box price and cash shop. No sense at all.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Vorch

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 771

8/24/13 10:34:08 PM#38
Originally posted by rojo6934
i think the GW2 model would fit this game perfectly specially since it stays true to the TES franchise model. But i might try it if they dont add a cash shop. I'll have a hard time alternating my one and only subscription between WoW, XIV, and WildStar(if they allow me to turn off telegraphs).

This right here.

I think B2P allows for people to at least purchase your game.

P2P will always have to potential of simply being a 30day free trial. With B2P, if people hate your game at one point, they can always come back and check it out, making each significant patch a chance to rehook people.

And what hurts more is even if you are a great P2P game, you have to compete with other subscriptions, which doesn't make any sense to me.

In short, B2P allows the merits of the game to be the sole measure of retention after entry without need for a pay wall.

I really hope ESO does well, and I'm sure it will. I just feel that P2P is a huge risk with a huge reward, but an even bigger potential downfall.

"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  TOWROK

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 33

8/24/13 10:49:31 PM#39
Originally posted by jesusjuice69

GW2 is not WS!

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

GW2 never spent a dime on elder game content.

WS is all about elder game.  That costs a lot of money to develop, and even more more to continually update.

 

Why must this thread continue......it should of simply ended with this, the 4th post

I'll add to it really quick

- P2P usually has potential on doing good and having that money to make it even BETTER......toward an expansion maybe :D

- If 15 a month is that big of a deal to you or to much.....for shaaaame

  battlesam

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 11

8/25/13 2:24:10 AM#40

One thing Blizzard did at the start of WOW was to allow skill respecs for ridiculously small amounts of  game coin because they realized respecing was essential to game play.I remember the early days of DAoC, before WoW, and many were supremely pissed at the lack of respecs. Some people were like, "What the fuck is going on? This game is called Camelot and I'm a 50 Albion Armsman specced full Poleman and my spec is gimped? WTF? And worse, I cannot respec?" 

 

And the idea of rerolling on DAoC was absurd since levelling to 50 was insanely difficult. My most memorable accomplishment ever in gaming is crystal clear, it was levelling my first level 50 in DAoC on Andred the PvP, FFA server. I remember when the server opened, it was like being in India: there was not one square inch of the map you could go without seeing other players, and on a FFA server that was nuts.

 

However, if someone wants a name change then, I agree, that's a different story. I have my personal collection of character names that I've built up over the years. They are original, rp, cool sounding, but most importantly, as unnoticeable as a tree in a forest. If some asshole choses a name like "Carebear" or "Legolaslol" and gets gang pk'd a thousand times, then maybe he or she SHOULD pay to have it changed. 

 

I remember sitting in Wintergrasp one time on Tichondrius server in WoW watching some morons on Celestial Steed mounts, which could only be obtained by paying $25 at the cash shop. At the time I thought, "that's wild that someone could actually sell pixels that artistically didn't look that good, really they looked like shit, but sell probably hundreds for $25 each. That's crazy easy money."  But never did I think Blizzard should not do it, I mean c'mon, it wasn't my fuckin game. Besides, it didn't affect my game experience one bit, imo all the in game mounts were better.

 

I would encourage Zen to make as much money as possible because I don't want GW2 patches with shit content, I want DAoC patches and WoW patches with real content. The last complete game M. Firor was associated with was DAoC so he definitely deserves this chance.

 

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