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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: ESO’s Risky Business

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108 posts found
  giggal

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/04
Posts: 117

8/22/13 2:00:50 PM#41

I would like a Subscription based game which doesn't have all the content completed after 2 weeks of SOLID game play. OK so mmos don't seem to understand the power gamer or completionist mentality but they seem to run into a content drought normally 3 weeks in. Even playing the secret world with its amazingly difficult puzzles and compelling story ran out in about 2 months.

That was 1 month sub and 1 month free then there was no point in continuing to play. new mmo's are all coming out with the same cut and paste mentality they went the wow route with "easy and faster levelling" and ended up shooting themselves in the foot.

Who remembers when it took literally MONTHS to get to end game, when gear levelling up actually made a difference. New mmo's offer you the levelling gear but 99% of the time you just disregard it because 20 minutes or an hour later you will be long gone from that kit.

The other issue is they invest a lot of time on the levels and environments but because levelling is so quick your in and out of the starting zones in next to no time. That's a lot of wasted content.

 

O and for the love of god I pray they don't put in voice actors because its the biggest waste of money ever. TOR gave us voice acting and then they gave us the ability to space bar through it all, guess what 99% of players did. So all that voice work wasted. IM keeping an eye on elder scrolls but weather it will hold my interest past the first month we will have to see.

  jdk201

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/06
Posts: 3

8/22/13 2:03:36 PM#42
I am fine with a sub model, but if you are going to charge $15 per month, you better have plenty of content and polish at launch to keep people busy until you get the next wave out.   Problem with most sub games is people never get their money's worth and end up quitting due to boredom.
  EQBallzz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 95

8/22/13 2:08:47 PM#43

If they have realistic sales/sub goals and the game doesn't suck it will be fine. On the other hand if they spend 200 million dollars on development and *need* the game to sustain 2 million subs to be "successful" and then the game also sucks...well then it deserves to die a horrible F2P death like SWTOR.

It's not a matter of F2P being better or inevitable..it's a matter of people eventually realizing that nothing is actually free. If you want a quality game into the future you have to pay for it. Either people spend a regimented 15 per month or they buy crap in a cash shop but if any sizable number of people actually played the game for "free" the game would fail miserably with that business model as well.

 

The real question is whether the game is good or not. SWTOR didn't die because of P2P. It started as P2P and had 2 million subs so a large number of people are willing to pay for the game and a sub. If it doesn't pan out then no they aren't going to keep playing and the game will end up going F2P which is a function of a failing game not a failing pay model.

 
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

8/22/13 2:52:52 PM#44
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by BadSpock

The problem with MMOs in the past 10-11 years hasn't been the sub model, it's been the poor quality of games not being WORTH the price of subscription.

People go into a fine dining restaurant expecting to pay more for it - but get better food.

You don't give better food, of course people are going to look at much cheaper options for the same quality.

Pretty much this.

people will always pay for things they think have value. They will always pay more for something that is perceived as being "top value".

Game companies had had an issue where they had players who ran through the content and then waited months, putting in their sub fees, without anything new to do.

So now game companies have painted themselves into a nice little corner because they have lost good will with their customers. They still need to make their money so they turn to f2p games which allow for players to spend more than they would have charged for a sub and to hopefully carry those players who have no intention of spending a dime.

This game just does not speak value to me and just seems more like the same crap we have gotten over the past 10 years. I will not pay for the box price and then sub unless I have time to find out the end game is worth sticking around for. This game is designed and marketed as a console game and should reflect it. Box price and GW2 cash shop. Done. Its not me its the game... currently subbing to FF14.

 
  remyburke

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 2985

I liked MMOs better when gamers didn't play them, and just geeks did.

8/22/13 3:07:06 PM#45
R3t3 and Badspock both hit the nail on the head. Well said guys. That's a /thread.

Playing: ESO

Played: AC1, AC2, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  Drakephire

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 352

8/22/13 3:28:19 PM#46
Originally posted by Yortnudef
at minimum wage 2 hours can pay for your supscription . I don't see why sub based games are a problem. if you are fighting against the cost get a job. Go mow a lawn, shovel a walk, go temp labour for a day. any o e of these and more will take care of you.

Not about affording it. I can also afford cable, but I don't because I hate paying for crap that I don't want like A&E channel or Home Shopping Network. I can afford a subscription. I could afford 10 subscriptions. But I don't want to pay for content I'll never use like Raids or PvP. I want a f2p model that allows me to buy the content I want a la carte.  DDO is a good example of this. 

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6492

"Only cunts name their swords"

8/22/13 3:51:51 PM#47
ESO will not be a purely sub-based MMO. It is yet another double-dip MMO where they have a sub AND cash shop.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4671

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

8/22/13 3:53:29 PM#48


There are stark differences as to why people play mmos. Cash shop style or P2P cater to those differences.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

8/22/13 3:59:35 PM#49
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Garrett, I'm sorry but this is just a really one-dimensional pandering article you wrote.  It almost feels like you guys, I read Mike Bs article as well, are hopping on the hipster bandwagon.

What "hipster bandwagon" are you referring to? I must say, I'm quite curious!

Geez Mike, do you have a pearl script running in the background that detects your name and any bait words? :p

The P2P "resurgence" is the new hipster thing.  I'm poking at you a little, because it's only sensible that you would cover the news story of the business model announcement, but they all read like we've stumbled back on the realization that this could be the right thing and we all really like that model down deep and hate the sub-free model.  I felt that it really sort of pandered to what the pro-p2p crowd want to hear.

Although you touched on the risk, no one is looking deeply at why the subscription model has foundered and how it has evolved into a double-dip gouge.  There has been no critical investigation into the flaws of the payment model and how that could affect these releases.  And I felt Garrett highlighted a couple of the worst f2p models without actually looking at good ones or scrutinizing bad p2p models.

As TESO, WS, and FFXIV all tout that they're offering a better experience due to the payment model, no one is looking at how they could be misusing it like so many others have.  No one is asking really hard questions and putting these people to task.

There is a lot more to question other than the risks involved in competing with sub-free game offerings.  So hopefully no offense is taken because none is intended.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  DeanGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 129

8/22/13 4:02:45 PM#50
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

ESO aside, because Im not interested in playing another Themepark style MMO, Ive prefer the Subscription model. $15mo for unlimited access is a great deal. .50 a day to play any time I want. You got my Sub.

 

F2P +Cash Shops Im not fond of because it usually turns into a B2W game, or at the very least a "Buy to even enjoy" game.

The only way I would accept a CS game was if the items were only cosmetic/fluff and you werent slammed with Ads.

 

What I really hate is Digital/Box Price for MMOs. Yeah sure you get "30 days Free" of gameplay, but so freaking what! If the game sucks you just blew $65 and the game becomes a brick because you cant do anything with it.

If I go buy Skyrim I can play it 3 days, 30 days, 3 years or 30 years. I dont pay more unless I buy DLC/Expansions. And if I dont like it, I can trade it or sell it.

 

I would like to see all MMOs at Release be- Free 7 Day Trial then Membership/Subscription for extended access.

I have always thought that box sales on P2P MMO's seem like shady business. If your game is of value to me then I will continue to pay monthly. Getting burned out of $50 for a game I don't like and can't exchange basically makes for a expensive paper weight. I have skipped numerous MMO's in recent years because I will not pay for a box unless I am certain that I enjoy the game. It would certainly help if trials were the norm and not some "free-weekend" or 6 months later (against declining populations) thing.

  Drakephire

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 352

8/22/13 4:04:55 PM#51
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Garrett, I'm sorry but this is just a really one-dimensional pandering article you wrote.  It almost feels like you guys, I read Mike Bs article as well, are hopping on the hipster bandwagon.

What "hipster bandwagon" are you referring to? I must say, I'm quite curious!

Geez Mike, do you have a pearl script running in the background that detects your name and any bait words? :p

The P2P "resurgence" is the new hipster thing.  I'm poking at you a little, because it's only sensible that you would cover the news story of the business model announcement, but they all read like we've stumbled back on the realization that this could be the right thing and we all really like that model down deep and hate the sub-free model.  I felt that it really sort of pandered to what the pro-p2p crowd want to hear.

Although you touched on the risk, no one is looking deeply at why the subscription model has foundered and how it has evolved into a double-dip gouge.  There has been no critical investigation into the flaws of the payment model and how that could affect these releases.  And I felt Garrett highlighted a couple of the worst f2p models without actually looking at good ones or scrutinizing bad p2p models.

As TESO, WS, and FFXIV all tout that they're offering a better experience due to the payment model, no one is looking at how they could be misusing it like so many others have.  No one is asking really hard questions and putting these people to task.

There is a lot more to question other than the risks involved in competing with sub-free game offerings.  So hopefully no offense is taken because none is intended.

You should be a game journalist. Good questions.

  User Deleted
8/22/13 4:42:52 PM#52
It's a great move on their part and for us too. If they want it to be something special and we want it to be special we are going to have to play it and pay for it. It becomes a synergistic relationship between players and devs.
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15176

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/22/13 4:48:48 PM#53
Originally posted by remyburke
R3t3 and Badspock both hit the nail on the head. Well said guys. That's a /thread.

Hard to hit a nail on the head when you don't even focus on the core of an issue, that issue being is ESO worth a sub?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

8/22/13 5:00:22 PM#54

It's funny.

People have been on this "Oh, subs are going away. It's inevitable. Viva La F2P!" for several years now.

Yet, there's three things that have been going on.

1. Subs haven't died. They're still around.

2. The F2P pendulum has swung about as far as it's going to in the F2P direction. It's been losing momentum as people are beginning to see more and more through the PR and recognize that F2P/Cash Shops/MTs aren't all they're hyped as, and that the marketing of them isn't exactly honest.

3. Three highly anticipated, AAA MMOs are launching as P2P, on the heels of TOR which also launched P2P (and would have remained as such if the game had been more solid and they'd maintained the million-plus original purchases they got).

Now suddenly, I'm seeing this trend of forum posters and columnists coming out with all these remarks about how "risky" it is to have a Sub-based MMO. Questioning the validity of the decision, etc. I can hardly wait to see how Aihoshi spins it. There's a clear theme of "pushback" on the recent resurgence of P2P in the genre, and it's made quite clear by all this commentary, attempting to cast a huge shadow of doubt on it.

They're so invested in F2P succeeding and Subs "dying off" that - it seems to me - they're going into panic mode. And so now they're going into spin-mode.

Someone posted a thread elsewhere citing how "Subs have dropped by 9%", and is immediately touting that as "proof the P2P model is dying".

Again, pure wishful thinking and damage control.

The major contributor seems to be WoW losing a large chunk of its player base. Well color me not at all surprised. Yes, when a game that is sub-based loses a large chunk of its player base, it's going to reflect as an overall decrease in subs across the board. All it indicates is... WoW's become a less appealing game to a sizable chunk of players. That's all it means.

Trying to cast a net on the entire revenue model on the basis of primarily one game is just plain dishonest. It's an act of desperation to, again, push back against the clear signal being sent: Subs aren't going anywhere and remain preferable to developers who feel their game will be worth it.

Subscriptions are a viable, solid, proven and straight-forward revenue model, as opposd to F2P/Cash Shops, which are the complete opposite. It's always been so, it remains so, and it will remain so in the future.

Poor, poor, anti-P2P people... Must really suck to have your predictions on "the death of subs!" repeatedly and continuously proven wrong. You've been wrong for years now, literally. Yet you just keep repeating the same mantras, making the same predictions.  You're tenacious. I'll give ya that. Misguided, but tenacious.

 

 

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5400

8/22/13 5:12:07 PM#55
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Garrett, I'm sorry but this is just a really one-dimensional pandering article you wrote.  It almost feels like you guys, I read Mike Bs article as well, are hopping on the hipster bandwagon.

What "hipster bandwagon" are you referring to? I must say, I'm quite curious!

Geez Mike, do you have a pearl script running in the background that detects your name and any bait words? :p

The P2P "resurgence" is the new hipster thing.  I'm poking at you a little, because it's only sensible that you would cover the news story of the business model announcement, but they all read like we've stumbled back on the realization that this could be the right thing and we all really like that model down deep and hate the sub-free model.  I felt that it really sort of pandered to what the pro-p2p crowd want to hear.

Although you touched on the risk, no one is looking deeply at why the subscription model has foundered and how it has evolved into a double-dip gouge.  There has been no critical investigation into the flaws of the payment model and how that could affect these releases.  And I felt Garrett highlighted a couple of the worst f2p models without actually looking at good ones or scrutinizing bad p2p models.

As TESO, WS, and FFXIV all tout that they're offering a better experience due to the payment model, no one is looking at how they could be misusing it like so many others have.  No one is asking really hard questions and putting these people to task.

There is a lot more to question other than the risks involved in competing with sub-free game offerings.  So hopefully no offense is taken because none is intended.

I was writing a response to you, but it pretty much became article length and I don't want to derail this comment thread, so I've posted it up as a blog. :)

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  AmbrosiaAmor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 734

8/22/13 5:23:03 PM#56
Originally posted by meddyck

This is the standard business model for several years now:

  1. Release with a box price and a monthly sub.
  2. Earn as much money as you can until server populations drop to dangerously low levels.
  3. Convert to freemium/B2P/F2P.
  4. Profit.
AOC, LOTRO, D&DO, TERA, SWTOR, STO, EQ2, Rift, TSW, etc. etc. Just wait a year or two and we will be able to add Wildstar and TESO to the list.
 
 
 

 

And yet some people still get surprised.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

8/22/13 5:35:00 PM#57
Originally posted by MikeB
I was writing a response to you, but it pretty much became article length and I don't want to derail this comment thread, so I've posted it up as a blog. :)

Thanks Mike.  I'll read and respond when I get home from work.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Juaks

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 275

8/22/13 5:43:58 PM#58
It will depend on the quality and the quantity of the content. I agree is a risky model nowadays. Same can be said for Wildstar, even worse since its a new IP.
The only safe one is SE and FFXIV which is a successful franchise, they are publishing themselves and they have proven already they can sustain p2p model with FFXI for years. That background is huge.
  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 327

8/22/13 5:56:09 PM#59
Originally posted by Ayulin

It's funny.

People have been on this "Oh, subs are going away. It's inevitable. Viva La F2P!" for several years now.

It'll happen...

If not his year, then the next....or the next...or the one after that....

One day people will be vindicated!

 

I can't see why it has to be one or the other, more choice for us is better.  Lots of variations of pay models have been proven to be profitable.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

8/22/13 6:28:03 PM#60
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Garrett, I'm sorry but this is just a really one-dimensional pandering article you wrote.  It almost feels like you guys, I read Mike Bs article as well, are hopping on the hipster bandwagon.

What "hipster bandwagon" are you referring to? I must say, I'm quite curious!

The P2P "resurgence" is the new hipster thing.  I'm poking at you a little, because it's only sensible that you would cover the news story of the business model announcement, but they all read like we've stumbled back on the realization that this could be the right thing and we all really like that model down deep and hate the sub-free model.  I felt that it really sort of pandered to what the pro-p2p crowd want to hear.

[mod edit]

There's nothing "hipster" about it. It's not "what the pro-p2p crowd want to hear". It's what many in the pro-P2P crowd have realized and argued - over and over again - for several years now, since the whole F2P fad caught on in the Western market. We haven't "wanted" or "needed" to hear anything... because we've been the ones saying it all along, attempting to help people understand the Sub model, how it works and why it works. Conversely, we've tried to explain how F2P/Cash Shop MMOs work, and the various tactics they employ (exploiting known vulnerabilities in human psychology, deliberately designing speed bumps and pot-holes into their games, so they can sell the "fix" to them on the cash shop, calling it a "convenience item", etc) to earn their revenue.

Subs are just as viable now as they've ever been, and always will be. We've been saying, all along, that the reason P2P MMOs fail and make the switch is because they're not good enough games to maintain enough subscribers.

The real problem is that the anti-P2P crowd have had their fingers jammed firmly in their ears, shouting "lalalala!! Can't hear you!", feeling safe and cozy in the bliss of their willful ignorance.

Although you touched on the risk, no one is looking deeply at why the subscription model has foundered and how it has evolved into a double-dip gouge.  There has been no critical investigation into the flaws of the payment model and how that could affect these releases.  And I felt Garrett highlighted a couple of the worst f2p models without actually looking at good ones or scrutinizing bad p2p models.

[mod edit]

Funny how you throw out these assertions, and then swiftly pass the responsibility to an unnamed "someone else" to "look deeply into it". You get to throw your negative spin on the model, while dodging the responsibility of backing it up with any kind of supporting evidence.

[mod edit]

The subscription model hasn't floundered. Some MMOs that launched with it - and here's that key point that you anti-P2P folk just love to conveniently ignore - were not good enough to maintain a large enough subscriber base. Do you get that? They failed to draw in and/or keep enough subscribers because they were sub-standard products.

How many offline/single-player games, sold through the retail "box on a shelf" model have failed, or otherwise done horribly? Would you blame that on "the retail model"? No. You'd blame it on the game not being very good.

A good game sells well and maintains a healthy following. A poor, or "not good enough" game doesn't.

The revenue model does not kill the game. Not being a good enough game to enough people kills it.

I really can't think of a simpler, more straight-forward or obvious way to explain this. And yet, I know some people will still manage to completely miss it.

Nor have subs it "evolved into a double-dip"; another baseless and unsupported assertion on your part.  MMORPGs are not just games. They are a service. As with any other service, there are on-going expenses involved, and a monthly sub fee is one way by which developers/publishers can choose to earn the revenue required to meet those expenses.  Just as are microtransactions, ad-support, or any other means a company may decide to earn their revenue.

The developer chooses the model that's most ideal for their game. Or, in the case of previously P2P MMOs that switch over (while maintaining a subscription option, mind you), they're using F2P/Cash Shops as a life-jacket to keep the game, and possibly the company, afloat.


As TESO, WS, and FFXIV all tout that they're offering a better experience due to the payment model, no one is looking at how they could be misusing it like so many others have.  No one is asking really hard questions and putting these people to task.

[mod edit]

No developer has stated that the subscription model will somehow make it a better gaming experience. Now you're twisting words out of context. They've said that a subscription model allows them to better plan the game's development, as they have a more stable and predictable income, which helps greatly in planning out new content to be added, etc.

It seems to bear constant repeating, so I'll say it again: The success of a sub-based MMO has nothing to do with its revenue model. It has everything to do with whether or not it's a good enough game for enough people to find it worth that monthly sub. I really don't know how else to convey that to where it will finally sink in with you people.

 

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