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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If F2P is the most profitable business model...

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114 posts found
  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2158

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

8/22/13 8:36:01 AM#61
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
 

 

Take it to /tells for God's Sake.

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1843

8/22/13 8:38:07 AM#62
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
 

 

Take it to /tells for God's Sake.

Nah i am done replying. He can have the last word. Not in mood to be trolled further. 

When people resort to personal attacks you know it is time to walk away.

Originally posted by uidcaustic5

I am 34 years old by the way but thanks for assuming that i am a 'kiddo'. It is typical to resort back handed insults when you run out of things to say.

You did claim that F2P is most profitable business model because players here on these forums say so to which i simply replied saying that the market trend proves it regardless of what posters say on forums. Only because you continue to refuse the way market is working right now won't change the fact that F2P is preferred model by majority. As proven by F2P models outnumbering P2P ones. Companies don't just make such big financial decisions without doing their research.

But please continue to repeat yourself like a broken record about 'financial records' even though you yourself have none. 

A new account made today just to post 'P2P is the besstt!!' i should have known better.

Actually I said that people on here claim that F2P is the most profitable model, I didn't throw my hat in either direction.  

So, about those financial statements?  Kiddo?

Umm that is one full complete sentence ..let me repost it for you..'You did claim that F2P is most profitable business model because players here on these forums say so to which i simply replied saying that the market trend proves it regardless of what posters say on forums. '

 

Learn to read a sentence please. 'Because' exists for a reason..so much for literacy being an amazing thing....

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Psion33

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 257

8/22/13 8:45:18 AM#63

People are seeing and realizing f2p is nothing more then "subsidized" gaming and gamers thank god are now starting to make real decisions regarding that. Such as, do they support paying for another's gaming habits, do they get anything in return for supporting the person to their left and right? 

 

Few, if any, people would subsidize another's gaming habits with little to no reward for themself.

  Vutar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/09
Posts: 728

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -George Santayana

8/22/13 8:56:55 AM#64
Hey everyone, I know the devs worked hard at making a product but I feel that their product should be given to me for free.
  Betaguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2362

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

8/22/13 9:01:48 AM#65
Originally posted by cranthug
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cranthug

Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P? 


 

Uh?

Here is a list of recent 2013 MMO releases.

http://games.gamepressure.com/games_encyclopedia.asp?KAT=7&SOR=2

Tell me how many are sub-only.

 

I failed to locate a AAA mmo on that list, though I did see a few that aspired to P2P but fell to their own short comings.  FF XIV, Wildstar, and ESO are all releasing as P2P.  I would consider those AAA games.  I suppose it's a matter of one's opinion on what a quality AAA game is, my apologies for using my opinion as a blanket statement!  :D

The question remains however...if the three games I mentioned are releasing as P2P, do you think they have made a grievous error in profitability?  Because as I see it, if they maintain healthy subscription numbers...will it not be a more profitable and sound endeavor for them?  I know I personally take comfort in knowing my monthly budget amount before the bills start rolling in...instead of worrying about selling enough lemonades at my stand to keep my electricity on next month.

There is nothing wrong with what you said. I agree 100%. You just have good taste that's all.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/22/13 9:15:32 AM#66
Originally posted by Ghost12

No one should support F2P!!!!

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, F2P kills MMOs. 

 

Not only kills them, slows innovation.

 

F2P is a cash grab. It's about sheer profits. We have many 2nd tier MMOs now, because it's cheap to throw some concepts together that's been tried out in WoW, and rehash them in another game. Just add PvP to it, and don't even need to add even new art assets, the players are the content.

 

Just look at all the PvP games. See any PvE game on the list that wasn't made prior to 2008, that's prime focus IS PvE?

 

Without that PvE innovation stalls. There's but a few games left that focuses on it. Folks chased that pewpewpew rabbit, and what we have to show for it is weaker and weaker MMOs, as PvP isn't designed to innovate, it's cheap programming filler.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

8/22/13 9:15:50 AM#67
Originally posted by Ghost12

No one should support F2P!!!!

 

Who says anything about supporting F2P?

I just play for free. If i am not paying, there is no "support", right?

Now, i would love to see how you are going to stop the whales.

 

  Psion33

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 257

8/22/13 9:19:50 AM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ghost12

No one should support F2P!!!!

 

Who says anything about supporting F2P?

I just play for free. If i am not paying, there is no "support", right?

Now, i would love to see how you are going to stop the whales.

 

 

Now of course I barely crack 6 figures so not a "whale" in the least...but the only f2p I support is clear cut p2w. 

  cranthug

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 58

Thought begets heresy.

 
OP  8/22/13 9:23:55 AM#69
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by cranthug
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cranthug

Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P? 


 

Uh?

Here is a list of recent 2013 MMO releases.

http://games.gamepressure.com/games_encyclopedia.asp?KAT=7&SOR=2

Tell me how many are sub-only.

 

I failed to locate a AAA mmo on that list, though I did see a few that aspired to P2P but fell to their own short comings.  FF XIV, Wildstar, and ESO are all releasing as P2P.  I would consider those AAA games.  I suppose it's a matter of one's opinion on what a quality AAA game is, my apologies for using my opinion as a blanket statement!  :D

The question remains however...if the three games I mentioned are releasing as P2P, do you think they have made a grievous error in profitability?  Because as I see it, if they maintain healthy subscription numbers...will it not be a more profitable and sound endeavor for them?  I know I personally take comfort in knowing my monthly budget amount before the bills start rolling in...instead of worrying about selling enough lemonades at my stand to keep my electricity on next month.

There is nothing wrong with what you said. I agree 100%. You just have good taste that's all.

Ty sir.  Yes I made this post originally to mock the claim that because there are a plethora of F2P games generating income vs the few P2P that are successful...that somehow F2P is the better business model and that this is the way of the future.  That is just a false claim.  There have been F2P crap games available as long as I can remember...I believe I had Aika on my computer at the same time as WoW and FF XI.  Games go F2P because it is the better business model for an mmo that wasn't successful enough to merit paying every month to play.

Games aren't releasing as F2P because it is the best business model for a SUCCESSFUL game...they are F2P because they have to get whatever money they can out of their crap product.  There is no scenario in which a P2P game with respectable subscription numbers is less profitable than F2P.  P2P games will always be released and the successful ones will flourish because of that business model.  It is a better player base, better game service, better all around.  People will gladly go P2P for an exceptional game.  The problem has been since 2004, there are a serious lack of games worth subbing to...not the business model itself. 

And to those that say..."Oh you fools, paying all those fees to play a game.  I'm going to play when it's free in 6 months...bahaha"  If the game wasnt worth you purchasing or paying a fee to play in the first place...wtf are you playing it for 6 months later?  Get a life.  Show some couth, and quit moving through life with your hand out.  When a business provides you with a service that benefits you.....YOU SHOULD COMPENSATE THEM.    smh  :D

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

8/22/13 9:29:11 AM#70
Originally posted by cranthug

And to those that say..."Oh you fools, paying all those fees to play a game.  I'm going to play when it's free in 6 months...bahaha"  If the game wasnt worth you purchasing or paying a fee to play in the first place...wtf are you playing it for 6 months later?  Get a life.  Show some couth, and quit moving through life with your hand out.  When a business provides you with a service that benefits you.....YOU SHOULD COMPENSATE THEM.    smh  :D

 

Not when a business practically begging me to play for free.

It is a free world. Devs don't need to offer anything for free. At the same time, if they do, there is little reason not to take it.

So what if a game is worth a sub. If they are offered to me for free, it is even better ... i am playing a sub-worthy game for free.

And if it is not fun for me, i won't touch it.

I pay for SP games. I pay for michelin star restaruants. I pay for private schools for my kids. But MMOs? Why should i pay a dime when i get the same amount of fun for free? Heck, i get MORE fun in f2p games. I like Star Trek, tell me a p2p alternative of STO? There is none.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/22/13 9:39:37 AM#71
Originally posted by uidcaustic5

Where is this proof?

Here. Just one article of many articles over the years which have detailed F2P's successes.

It's great to be skeptical and demand proof, but remember you have the internet and can find this stuff pretty easily yourself too.

  neonaka

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/05
Posts: 803

8/22/13 9:42:46 AM#72

Of the 3 Titles you mentioned only one will never go to F2P regardless of profitability.

FF11 has ran for over 10 years on a sub based model, and FF14 will also run on a sub model for the duration of it's service. I do not see Square/Enix ever moving away from this model regardless of profits ever. FF14 is a P2P game for life, everyone will just have to deal with it. 

Wildstar, NCSoft has a habit of attempting to go the P2P route only to cave in after a while and toss it's games up to the cash shop crowd as was the case with Aion in 2.0. Wildstar however might be good enough to stay P2P for quite some time, but it will eventually go to the cash shop model. 

ESO, who knows Bethesda is a good game company, they make quality stuff. Can ESO stand up to all the games releasing like EQNext, Wildstar, FFXIV and keep itself in a P2P slot, I guess only time will tell. I hope it does, ESO has potential but I think as a cash shop title it won't be as good as it could be.

 

 

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1492

8/22/13 9:45:52 AM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cranthug

And to those that say..."Oh you fools, paying all those fees to play a game.  I'm going to play when it's free in 6 months...bahaha"  If the game wasnt worth you purchasing or paying a fee to play in the first place...wtf are you playing it for 6 months later?  Get a life.  Show some couth, and quit moving through life with your hand out.  When a business provides you with a service that benefits you.....YOU SHOULD COMPENSATE THEM.    smh  :D

 

Not when a business practically begging me to play for free.

It is a free world. Devs don't need to offer anything for free. At the same time, if they do, there is little reason not to take it.

So what if a game is worth a sub. If they are offered to me for free, it is even better ... i am playing a sub-worthy game for free.

And if it is not fun for me, i won't touch it.

I pay for SP games. I pay for michelin star restaruants. I pay for private schools for my kids. But MMOs? Why should i pay a dime when i get the same amount of fun for free? Heck, i get MORE fun in f2p games. I like Star Trek, tell me a p2p alternative of STO? There is none.

I think STO is one of the best examples a person to give to show how F2P changes the kinds of activities developers create for players.  Maybe your happy with things like multiple game currencies designed for the sole purpose of inserting real world money into the game economy and grind activities designed to make life as a free player in the game as difficult as possible and if so more power to you but I don't know how someone who says they understand the value of things like private school vs public school or a good meal vs fast food would not understand that some of us don't and would rather play a game where the developers focus is on keeping us happy and playing the game long term (subbing) rather than trying to see how many cash shop sales they can drum up that month?  I'm willing to pay a sub for such a game as I get value out of it, if you get just as much value out of F2P games than that's great, there are plenty of those types of games on the market and more to come for sure.  I don't think asking for a handful of decent P2P games is to much.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

8/22/13 9:53:31 AM#74
Originally posted by udon

I pay for SP games. I pay for michelin star restaruants. I pay for private schools for my kids. But MMOs? Why should i pay a dime when i get the same amount of fun for free? Heck, i get MORE fun in f2p games. I like Star Trek, tell me a p2p alternative of STO? There is none.

I think STO is one of the best examples a person to give to show how F2P changes the kinds of activities developers create for players.  Maybe your happy with things like multiple game currencies designed for the sole purpose of inserting real world money into the game economy and grind activities designed to make life as a free player in the game as difficult as possible and if so more power to you but I don't know how someone who says they understand the value of things like private school vs public school or a good meal vs fast food would not understand that some of us don't and would rather play a game where the developers focus is on keeping us happy and playing the game long term (subbing) rather than trying to see how many cash shop sales they can drum up that month?  I'm willing to pay a sub for such a game as I get value out of it, if you get just as much value out of F2P games than that's great, there are plenty of those types of games on the market and more to come for sure.  I don't think asking for a handful of decent P2P games is to much.

Oh .. i understand why you prefer p2p. I just don't share that preference.

STO ... currency don't concern me. i got my your free star ship, and free officers. And i am playing through the story mission solo. There is no grind. Each mission is going to be done only once. The game is easy enough that i don't need any paid advantage.

And i expect i will "finish" the game eventually. So that is pure free fun for me.

Take Marvel Heroes as another example. I already finished the story content with one hero. That is 30 hours of free fun for me. I don't see a reason why i should not enjoy it when i find beating up The Hand ninjas with daredevil fun.

Now i never say you should not ask for p2p games to play. It is your preferences, not mine. But it is fair to point out that the market is going the opposite direction (and we can debate that). And it is also fair game to state that don't expect me to play/support that handful of p2p MMOs.

 

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2895

For the Queen!

8/22/13 9:56:00 AM#75

I have a feeling FFXIV will have no problems being P2P.  The website can't even keep up with demand for early access codes :)

 

I don't really like F2P games, they seem to always end up putting more time into a helmet or mount or something that I don't want or need, instead of creating new content, which I really need.

  cranthug

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 58

Thought begets heresy.

 
OP  8/22/13 9:57:50 AM#76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cranthug

And to those that say..."Oh you fools, paying all those fees to play a game.  I'm going to play when it's free in 6 months...bahaha"  If the game wasnt worth you purchasing or paying a fee to play in the first place...wtf are you playing it for 6 months later?  Get a life.  Show some couth, and quit moving through life with your hand out.  When a business provides you with a service that benefits you.....YOU SHOULD COMPENSATE THEM.    smh  :D

 

Not when a business practically begging me to play for free.

It is a free world. Devs don't need to offer anything for free. At the same time, if they do, there is little reason not to take it.

So what if a game is worth a sub. If they are offered to me for free, it is even better ... i am playing a sub-worthy game for free.

And if it is not fun for me, i won't touch it.

I pay for SP games. I pay for michelin star restaruants. I pay for private schools for my kids. But MMOs? Why should i pay a dime when i get the same amount of fun for free? Heck, i get MORE fun in f2p games. I like Star Trek, tell me a p2p alternative of STO? There is none.

 

Is a game truly sub-worthy if it had to convert to being F2P to generate income?  Again, I stress this...the problem isn't with the payment methods, and that there are no longer enough people willing to pay a monthly fee.  The problem is that there hasn't been a game since 2004 worth paying for in the long run.  No one has duplicated WoW's success.  MANY have tried.  But because many have failed, that does not mean that someday there won't be another game to have that kind of staying power using a P2P revenue model. 

There are many reasons to not take games for free.  Provide revenue to the game maker, so as to pay their employees and generate new meaningful content are two that come to mind.

I get it though, you have found a F2P game that you can get everything you want out of entertainment wise...for free.  I have no problem with you finding your entertainment that way.  The problem I and many others have is that we do not get the same level of entertainment from the F2P market.  It is also a market that has the capacity for shady business....overpriced fluff, P2W, pay to progress.  That is not the future of exceptional games...just the mass produced asian grinds and titles that weren't up to snuff to remain P2P.  If it IS the future...God help us all.....

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4331

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/22/13 10:02:55 AM#77

There probably is some mathematical, logical formula based on the development cost and cost of maintaining the game which shows the level of subs needed for a game to make more profit than would be generated for a f2p.  I actually don't think it would be that difficult to figure out provided you had access to the aforementioned data across several dozen games.

That being said, why wouldn't a game launch as p2p?  These days getting 2 million players in a month is pretty common, that is 2 million people all buying the game, an enormous amount of cash that pretty much covers all development.  In 6 months to a year when there is 50-500k subs (like almost every other game on the market, a much more realistic level of subs, based on all the other games and the time they have been out), would it still be more profitable as a sub?

 

Face it.  This is the new business model.  P2p on launch to reap income from initial launch sales which are astronomically huge, and f2p with cs, or p2p with cs down the road to maintain the income.

In an age where games cost 50-100 million+ to develop (vs 10 million of yesteryear), and still most games have between 50-500k subs, it is highly unlikley that subs alone are capable of maintaining the profit demanded to maintain the game.  Not impossible just unlikely.  Therefore they either need to lower the development cost or find a way to generate more income.  So far they found a way to generate more income.

To expect that a game, any game will maintain greater than 500,000 subs when so few games have ever even made it that far, is just not realistic.  The companies now know this as well.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

8/22/13 10:07:20 AM#78
Originally posted by cranthug

There are many reasons to not take games for free.  Provide revenue to the game maker, so as to pay their employees and generate new meaningful content are two that come to mind.

I get it though, you have found a F2P game that you can get everything you want out of entertainment wise...for free.  I have no problem with you finding your entertainment that way.  The problem I and many others have is that we do not get the same level of entertainment from the F2P market.  It is also a market that has the capacity for shady business....overpriced fluff, P2W, pay to progress.  That is not the future of exceptional games...just the mass produced asian grinds and titles that weren't up to snuff to remain P2P.  If it IS the future...God help us all.....

yes, that is because our preferences of entertainment differs.

I play MMOs essentially like solo games. I don't need (or even want) fluff. P2W is no issue if i don't pvp. I want to finish the content and move on, and don't really care if there is a community (although i believe STO has an active one, just look at foundry).

So I essentially ignore the cash shop. So far, none of the f2p games i like has a pay wall to prevent me to finish the content.

And i don't find any p2p games that is much more fun (for me) than that. Again, if you like star trek, or marvel characters, f2p is far better than p2p, because there is no p2p MMO with those IPs.

 

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 571

8/22/13 10:13:40 AM#79
Originally posted by cranthug

Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord.  

 

 

Nope, the collection plate still goes around for that :) Heaven is P2P.

 

You're right, though, there are simply no "worthy" games in recent memory which have survived the P2P model. Simple fact is that I think that most people expect more. Event with WoW being a P2P model, people still get pissed about the lack of or slow content updates. Shouldn't they be?I think that GW2 has been more frequent with their updates and they're B2P.

 

I think that Rift has a really good model right now. I love the sub option and I think it's underutilized. I think a sub option is good because it forces the developer not to get lazy and continue supporting their game and community with new content updates. Otherwise people will level cap and leave. 

Crazkanuk

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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  Vutar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/09
Posts: 728

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -George Santayana

8/22/13 10:15:37 AM#80
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by uidcaustic5

Where is this proof?

Here. Just one article of many articles over the years which have detailed F2P's successes.

It's great to be skeptical and demand proof, but remember you have the internet and can find this stuff pretty easily yourself too.

 

Yes, because a game that no one played, DDO, was able to stay afloat using a F2P model, that clearly means that all new AAA MMOs should use that model too. I mean after it, it was on the internet, it must be true.

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