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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If F2P is the most profitable business model...

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114 posts found
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/22/13 6:39:05 AM#41
Originally posted by Rockniss
F2p is a rule change to beat World of Warcraft. Devs couldnt do it playing by the same rules, so they dont play the same game. Whats happening now is more and more people are becoming educated about the f2p woes and why they should avoid f2p like the plague. When I decide what mmorpg I want to play, the payment model is a big factor in that decision. F2p games get automatically disqualified from the pool of candidates. P2p and true buy to play do not. I say true buy to play because Gw2 is considered b2p, yet the game is significantly been made less rewarding due to thier cash shop and so even fluff items get in the way of quality. When you can simply pay for your gear, level cap, power, any convenience, your taking away from the game. So they change the rules and make f2p and I change my habits and stop gaming. The truth is most f2p games can not compete witu WoW, Eve, even the new comer FFARR - setup fundamentally for p2p knowing what to expect and being thankful for anything more. This next games Eso and Wildstar chose p2p and its simply a testimony to thier confidence and that alone is a reason to get excited. Off hand - how many subs are needed to keep a game afloat? / / Also how many f2p games before the f2p culture has exhausted its resources? Loss of money, loss of f2p members?

Those who remain playing WoW will do so more for the sanctuary to return too. It's there. It's decent.

 

Blizzard has to be careful and not be arrogant over that though. Because if sanctuary is debased, that's some angry gamers. Blizzard needs a player base for their games -- especially to launch and keep Titan from losing money faster than WoW -- (this is their model: WoW was based on Warcraft. Diablo III got it's launch off of WoW players. Titan will need WoW/Starcraft/Diablo to help it's launch). Blizzard plays it's hand wrong, welcome to SOE vs Players 2005 all over again.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/22/13 7:00:45 AM#42
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by UNATCOII

It's profitable if the game company isn't plain greedy.

...

That can be said about all the models.

Having a cashshop in P2P makes many players choose a B2P or F2P game instead, and if B2P start selling good items with stat people go to F2P. If F2P go too much into Pay2win most players leave as well.

Any of the 3 models works fine as long as the companies avoid being too greedy.

 

F2P isn't the model to launch other IP on though. Have to figure out how many existing players are committed enough to play the new IP.

 

Dust 514 is a great example of a failed launch. A community that doesn't support it. Single platform launch. Buggy. Made in China (which explains a lot of the problems...can't lease a critical part -- animations -- out of the shop, dismal results). WoW's animations look anime, it doesn't flow like one, though. Big problem in a lot of these MMOs, the animations are not good quality. They flicker badly due to lower framerates of the anime style, and gamers can tell something is off. WoW is more of the Disney school, very free flowing flicker free animations.  WoW is an AAA quality game by those little things. They have cute looking figures, but at a high frame rate (60+fps). Even the pets are that detailed. They don't flicker like if keyframes are missing or spliced badly.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 7:12:09 AM#43
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/22/13 7:28:00 AM#44
Originally posted by Adalwulff 

Historically P2W did mean quality, but it really doesn't matter because look at SWTOR, they lost subs quickly. Since a lot of players wait a month or two after release to see if the game is good, they lose nothing.

So the players still decide if a game is worth it, the sub or lack of, doesn't really matter that much.

I think the F2P model just doesn't work with MMOs. For games like LoL, DotA 2, FireFall...ect, its a perfect model!

Assuming you meant P2P (not P2W), historically P2P hasn't really meant any higher/lower quality.  It just brings its own unique set of negative game mechanics just like any other model (except pay2win, which is just overtly terrible.)

F2P works with MMOs, but hasn't thus far been done well on MMORPGs. Important distinction. 

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 7:46:27 AM#45
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went F2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  User Deleted
8/22/13 7:54:11 AM#46
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by LeGrosGamer
  problem I got with F2P titles being released like crazy every 2-3 weeks, is that people think the F2P model is awesome since a lot of people play when the game releases. That's true, until the next F2P releases 2-3 weeks later and those same players will flock around the new release and only a handful will stay and play that now 6 week old F2P title.  

You make it sounds like a bad thing.

You get to play more games. More variety, instead of stuck with one.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like a win to me.

And btw, 6 weeks is way longer than SP games already. And who says i cannot go back for more if i like the game enough. It is free .. so it is easy to drop it and pick up later.

 

Stuck?

If a game is good enough, there are millions that would gladly stick around for the long term. It use to be that way.

I'm sorry games suck so bad that you have to play a new one every 2-3 weeks. Or you have to follow the crowd every 2-3 weeks because serious gamers subsidize your gaming. That's not a good thing, no matter how you spin it.

Nobody else on these forums is boasting about these types of games you're standing by.....in every single thread with this topic and no other.

Use to be that way? So? Do you want to ride a horse to work too?

Oh games don't suck. Dishonored .. a far shorter game that most MMO .. is more fun (to me) than most MMOs. You are confusing quality and duration.

I play for quality, not duration.

And it is certainly a good thing for me, when i am having more fun. I doubt you are the authority on how i have fun.

"no one else blah blah blah ..." I am no sheep. You can go follow others in the forum. I stick to my own preferences.

 

+0.9

The other 0.1 is because I do want to ride a horse to work.

  13lake

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 122

8/22/13 7:57:32 AM#47
They got you so fooled you don't get it, well, the OP might be a plant from a big company exactly for this reason. P2P is more lucrative in the first few months, when hype brings more people than those that would ordinarily play the game. However P2P is extremely unreliant and bad in the long run, and after you lose a large amount of customers, hence the switch to F2P after a few months.
  User Deleted
8/22/13 7:57:32 AM#48
Originally posted by cranthug

Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P?  Regardless of people's predictions of how many months til a games "inevitable" conversion to a F2P cash shop, P2P is still and will always be the preferred business model for game makers.  It benefits the devs and players alike, and if a game has the longevity and the fun factor built into it you should be required to compensate the game makers for providing you this service.  

If people want to be nickel and dimed for content that should already be available to them for a small fee each month, more power to them.  If kiddies can't get their parents to cough up a credit card so they can game, I say get a damn job.  The problem with P2P isn't the business model, it is the fact that there have been no games released in recent memory worth paying a sub for. 

Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord.  Support the developers that give you hours of entertainment.  Long live P2P!  Huzzah!

 

 

Uh because they get a nice big cash injection at the start, then when sales / subscribers don't meet stakeholder approval (read: not the next World of Warcraft) they will swap to F2P to milk even more money out of the game.

Look at, oh I don't know, every single MMO ever released aside from WoW, Darkfall and EVE?

Long live suckers who will pay for something that will be free in 6 months! Huzzah!

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 7:58:26 AM#49
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went P2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

I agree, P2P is best.

So other than quoting the obvious typo..do you even have an argument? 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1139

8/22/13 8:01:07 AM#50
The term "most profitable" is very subjective.  I think a more accurate statement would be that F2P models have the potential for larger profits, but on average, they might not make more profit than P2P games.  This scenario becomes a lot more complex when you consider various markets and the games produced for them.  It is also important to consider that a company can stay in business while making little (or negative) profit, and that simply being in a business with a stable income is more important to them than making large profits.
  User Deleted
8/22/13 8:03:58 AM#51
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went F2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

Also pretty much everyone from SoE to Turbine and Bioware reported much higher profitability after switching to F2P models. There is a reason that SoE is releasing EQN and all its future titles as F2P, they have been in the game a lot longer than Carbine and Zenimax, and they know where the money is at.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 8:05:02 AM#52
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went P2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

I agree, P2P is best.

So other than quoting the obvious typo..do you even have an argument? 

I'm still waiting on proof beyond your opinion.

The picture that current market shows and how F2P MMOS outnumber P2P models isn't matter of opinion but a fact. Industry follows success and if P2P model was so successful the market would show a different picture.

There is only ONE pure sub P2P model MMO that we know of and that is FFXIV.  Wildstar offer CREDDS as an option along with sub so it isn't even in same category.

When you look at the current picture painted by MMO market i wonder how you can even say 'it is just your opinion' with a straight face.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

8/22/13 8:06:50 AM#53
Originally posted by cranthug

Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P?  Regardless of people's predictions of how many months til a games "inevitable" conversion to a F2P cash shop, P2P is still and will always be the preferred business model for game makers.  It benefits the devs and players alike, and if a game has the longevity and the fun factor built into it you should be required to compensate the game makers for providing you this service.  

If people want to be nickel and dimed for content that should already be available to them for a small fee each month, more power to them.  If kiddies can't get their parents to cough up a credit card so they can game, I say get a damn job.  The problem with P2P isn't the business model, it is the fact that there have been no games released in recent memory worth paying a sub for. 

Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord.  Support the developers that give you hours of entertainment.  Long live P2P!  Huzzah!

 

My guess:

f2p is more profitable in the long run - however, companies may have figured out that people tend to 'ramp up' on their cash shop spending - they may enter games more wary and thus in the first months of a games release, they may not need the cash shop or may not want to drop money on the game until they know its something they are going to invest time in. 

Therefore, it may be more profitable to begin as a sub, then after several months and they have a crowd 'hooked' - they switch to f2p.

Any cost to transition with any of those games may have been absorbed in development at this point - i.e. this was their plan all along, and therefore the game is ultimately designed around a f2p concept.

 

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 8:16:57 AM#54
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went P2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

I agree, P2P is best.

So other than quoting the obvious typo..do you even have an argument? 

I'm still waiting on proof beyond your opinion.

The picture that current market shows and how F2P MMOS outnumber P2P models isn't matter of opinion but a fact. Industry follows success and if P2P model was so successful the market would show a different picture.

There is only ONE pure sub P2P model MMO that we know of and that is FFXIV.  Wildstar offer CREDDS as an option along with sub so it isn't even in same category.

When you look at the current picture painted by MMO market i wonder how you can even say 'it is just your opinion' with a straight face.

More people believe in God than don't, that is not proof of the existence of such a creature.  Going to need to see quarterly earnings and cost reports ( including all overheads ) provided by their respective companies, not third party sites.  Until then, your opinion is nothing more than that.

Do you see the irony in your statement? do you have quarterly earnings of of all the new P2P MMOS to show that this model is indeed profitable? oh no you can not because majority of those went F2P..ahahaha!! 

Again not 'my opinion' but the current market trend. I am pretty sure F2P model is working great for these companies or the next AAA sandbox title like EQNEXT won't be a F2P game and P2P MMOS would be flooding the market. But all we got is a little trickle known as FFXIV.

 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6732

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

8/22/13 8:22:45 AM#55

FFXIV and Square Enix are the ONLY ones not using cash shop at all.They will not have a contingency plan to go f2p either.

Their plan will be to fix the game as already shown if it is not a success or something drastic will happen.It is definitely not out of the realm it could go f2p or cash shop,but i am 100% certain they are not thinking that route at all.I am however 100% certain a game like Wildstar not only is thinking about it but has it planned out for a certain time frame.I believe they are thinking 3-4 months to max out sales and subs,then they will evaluate their business model.most business work in quarterlies,then people get fired or promoted lol.

Developers and marketing teams and media will tell you whatever works for them,they are not going to tell you the truth unless it works for them.You think some media outlet is going to get a developer interview then criticize their pay model,not going to happen,one hand feeds the other.

There is no such thing as free to play,money has to come from somewhere.It is a sloppy business model,the players never know the actual cost to enjoy the game as intended and the developer never knows how much money is coming at any given time.Developers are not dumb,not knowing the actual money mean they will design the game to operate accordingly,meaning your game will not be to it's fullest potential.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 8:23:03 AM#56
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
Who said it was?  Oh.. right.. people on here.  

People on here? nope..the market proved it. 

Where is this proof?

Huh? the amount of MMOS that went P2P isn't proof enough for you? you think companies would continue to follow F2P model without doing their research and knowing that it is a profitable model for them. Seriously.

I agree, P2P is best.

So other than quoting the obvious typo..do you even have an argument? 

I'm still waiting on proof beyond your opinion.

The picture that current market shows and how F2P MMOS outnumber P2P models isn't matter of opinion but a fact. Industry follows success and if P2P model was so successful the market would show a different picture.

There is only ONE pure sub P2P model MMO that we know of and that is FFXIV.  Wildstar offer CREDDS as an option along with sub so it isn't even in same category.

When you look at the current picture painted by MMO market i wonder how you can even say 'it is just your opinion' with a straight face.

More people believe in God than don't, that is not proof of the existence of such a creature.  Going to need to see quarterly earnings and cost reports ( including all overheads ) provided by their respective companies, not third party sites.  Until then, your opinion is nothing more than that.

Do you see the irony in your statement? do you have quarterly earnings of of all the new P2P MMOS to show that this model is indeed profitable? oh no you can not because majority of those went F2P..ahahaha!! 

Again not 'my opinion' but the current market trend. I am pretty sure F2P model is working great for these companies or the next AAA sandbox title like EQNEXT won't be a F2P game and P2P MMOS would be flooding the market. But all we got is a little trickle known as FFXIV.

 

Still no financials to support your opinion?  Neato.

Are you trolling me bro? if you believe F2P isn't profitable and P2P is that means you have the financial records to prove your point..so why don't you show me something from recent P2P MMO release and i will shut up.

How about that for 'neato'? you are like an ostrich with head burried in the sand.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2908

8/22/13 8:24:53 AM#57

"The F2P games industry makes more money than the subscription games industry."

 

Who could have guessed that 1000 to 2000 games (F2P) would make more money than 5 or 6 (P2P) ?

 

Perhaps the MMO game developers are not as dumb as most people here seem to believe. They clearly believe the subscription payment model is a better option. They are right of course. It is a better option, but only if your game is good enough to attract (and keep) a substantial playerbase.

 

SWTOR was not good enough to keep the masses of players they needed to meet their earnings targets. They blew it, and had to switch to F2P to try and recoup their substantial investment.

 

TSW also missed their mark, but their earning projections were not realistic. The game seems to have stabilised quite well as B2P and Cash-Shop-Lite.

 

Very few games will have that "certain magic" that keeps a substantial playerbase entertained for long periods while charging a sub. Many will try, most will fail. But that's no reason to stop trying.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16683

8/22/13 8:27:58 AM#58
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Are you trolling me bro? if you believe F2P isn't profitable and P2P is that means you have the financial records to prove your point..so why don't you show me something from recent P2P MMO release and i will shut up.

How about that for 'neato'? you are like an ostrich with head burried in the sand.

As I said before, it really depends. When there are 1000 F2P games and 2 P2P being P2P might be a good idea.

DDO really did best the first year after it converted when there were few western games that were F2P. It still earns plenty of money but not as much.

If there are about the same of both then F2P will earn more since some people buy stuff like there is no tomorrow.

However a great game will earn money no matter what model you use.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/22/13 8:33:32 AM#59
Originally posted by uidcaustic5
 

I don't recall claiming one way or the other, literacy is an amazing thing isn't it?  

Waiting on those financials to back up your opinion kiddo. :)

I am 34 years old by the way but thanks for assuming that i am a 'kiddo'. It is typical to resort to back handed insults when you run out of things to say.

You did claim that F2P is most profitable business model because players here on these forums say so to which i simply replied saying that the market trend proves it regardless of what posters say on forums. Only because you continue to refuse the way market is working right now won't change the fact that F2P is preferred model by majority. As proven by F2P models outnumbering P2P ones. Companies don't just make such big financial decisions without doing their research. yeah literacy is indeed an amazing thing so is the ability to comprehend.

But please continue to repeat yourself like a broken record about 'financial records' even though you yourself have none. 

A new account made today just to post 'P2P is the besstt!!' i should have known better.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  User Deleted
8/22/13 8:34:15 AM#60

No one should support F2P!!!!

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, F2P kills MMOs. 

 

You will end up spending MORE money being nickle and dimed to death in a F2P MMO's cash shop then paying $10-$20 dollars a month. It's a no brainer. P2P is full access to the game, no restrictions.

 

Cash shops encourage P2W. And no, "time savers" like XP boosts are Pay 2 Win. People who say that time savers are not P2W are fooling themselves. Companies that include this kind of BS in their games, end up scaling the time it would take to level up, farm by x10 the amount. You would end up farming for months on end for MANY, MANY GAMES unless you bought their XP Boosters.

 

Oh and guess what? You  might as well throw your money out the window when buying items from a cash shop, because the company can easily make newer and better items, and you just wasted $50 on that sword of darkness +1 when there is a sword of bigger darkness +10.

 

Not only that but cash shops kill immersion. 

 

No one should be supporting cash shops and this is one of the reasons why MMOs suck balls nowadays. Instead of buying the full game, you have to pay for ingame items in order to stay competitive. 

 

Supporters of F2P are fooling themselves and I bet most of them already have blown $400+ on stupid ingame items, its a damn shame and ruins the spirit of gaming.

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