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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ESO will be P2P

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317 posts found
  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4033

8/21/13 4:05:34 AM#21

If the game turns out to be good then this will be an awesome thing :) but i cant see it being any good so it wont matter either way..

 

Sub games are the future.. :)

 

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  RollieJoe

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/05
Posts: 398

8/21/13 4:07:57 AM#22

Final Fantasy, Wildstar, and now Elder Scrolls, all going to be P2P.   I'm glad to see we'll finally be getting some quality MMO games and not the cash shop garbage F2P MMO #283 cranked out this month. 

 

Very happy major MMO's are going back to subscription/quality model.

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 640

8/21/13 4:12:34 AM#23
I find it very funny how a lot of people call it a quality model, yet it isn't particularly anything new. It's been done before. Many games start off as this model and have to give it up when it doesn't hold enough subs. If this really was the case, how come this model never seems to hold up very well other then for a very select few games? Which mind you are slowly also adapting newer models.
  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1437

8/21/13 4:14:49 AM#24
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
I find it very funny how a lot of people call it a quality model, yet it isn't particularly anything new. It's been done before. Many games start off as this model and have to give it up when it doesn't hold enough subs. If this really was the case, how come this model never seems to hold up very well other then for a very select few games? Which mind you are slowly also adapting newer models.

P2P is the model to go with, no doubt.  But it has to justify it with replay value that your paying for.  ESO will need to whip something out of no where, because as of now people have no clue what they're paying for.  There is no end game tier content, the best gear is gotten through crafting. So whatever replay value people are paying for is still unknown, and if it stays unknown this game will not last long P2P.  

Played-Everything
Playing-WoW,FFXIV:ARR,AA
Want-WoD,WH40K:EC

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4033

8/21/13 4:15:39 AM#25
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Originally posted by Arskaaa
ofc its p2p. skyrim was too and all elder scrolls games.

Skyrim and previous ES games where B2P, big difference to P2P where you pay a monthly fee to keep the ability to play them game.

You cannot compare a sinple player game to a MMORPG.. of course single player games dont have subs.. but your right that guy was wrong..

 

An mmorpg should be sub based without any silly cash shops.. access to all the content without paying extra.. then every now and then you get a nice big exp pack that you pay for.. the old ways always worked well and produced a lot of good games.. since the advent of this f2p junk we have hardly had 1 good mmorpg,,

 

Not saying ESO will be good we ahve to wait and see..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18727

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/21/13 4:20:06 AM#26
Originally posted by coretex666

It is perfectly logical from the business point of view.

Above certain level of demand, P2P generates higher profit than F2P (and B2P as some people refer to F2P with box price).

They launch the game as P2P to figure out whether the level of demand is high enough with the price tag of X USD / month.

If the demand is below the mentioned level, only then will they switch to less profitable business model -> F2P.

Any questions?

 

This. Of course to maximize revenues almost any AAA MMO is going to follow the above pattern, they get the best of all worlds, initial influx of box sales, steady but decreasing income for a period of time, at least 6 months and perhaps several years. Then they can flip the model and try to extract revenue from the whales and finally the nickel and dime F2P market.

Sure, there's a few outliers such as GW2 or EQN but those titles are somewhat cripplewear because of this and lacking in features commonly expected of AAA MMOs, (such as including meaningful character progression) and I realize its all conjecture with EQN, but then again, when was the last time SOE did anything right in the MMO space?

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 640

8/21/13 4:23:56 AM#27
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
I find it very funny how a lot of people call it a quality model, yet it isn't particularly anything new. It's been done before. Many games start off as this model and have to give it up when it doesn't hold enough subs. If this really was the case, how come this model never seems to hold up very well other then for a very select few games? Which mind you are slowly also adapting newer models.

P2P is the model to go with, no doubt.  But it has to justify it with replay value that your paying for.  ESO will need to whip something out of no where, because as of now people have no clue what they're paying for.  There is no end game tier content, the best gear is gotten through crafting. So whatever replay value people are paying for is still unknown, and if it stays unknown this game will not last long P2P.  

I hate P2P models. Unless a game offers something extremely good and different, I don't feel it's worth it. As it stands, a subscription to console would be about $60 per year. Chances are the game itself will cost at least $50. That equals $110. Then add on the sub fee of $180 with out discount that is $290, just to play the game one year for console players.

  Nibs

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/04
Posts: 193

8/21/13 4:24:12 AM#28
Originally posted by Chrisbox 
There is no end game tier content, the best gear is gotten through crafting. So whatever replay value people are paying for is still unknown, and if it stays unknown this game will not last long P2P.  

The best gear coming from crafting does not necessarily mean there is no end game content.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4033

8/21/13 4:24:34 AM#29
Originally posted by Kyleran
 

 

This. Of course to maximize revenues almost any AAA MMO is going to follow the above pattern, they get the best of all worlds, initial influx of box sales, steady but decreasing income for a period of time, at least 6 months and perhaps several years. Then they can flip the model and try to extract revenue from the whales and finally the nickel and dime F2P market.

 

Sure, there's a few outliers such as GW2 or EQN but those titles are somewhat cripplewear because of this and lacking in features commonly expected of AAA MMOs, (such as including meaningful character progression) and I realize its all conjecture with EQN, but then again, when was the last time SOE did anything right in the MMO space?

It depends I guess..

Sure if the game turns out to be pretty bad and starts loosing people over the months then yes they will have to switch to f2p.. but even if they do the game will still be bad.

If they have made a good game then numbers will be pretty stable and they will never have to change to a f2p model.. tho of course it will always be an option if needed.

 

As for SOE doing stuff right MMO wise.. well you have PS2 as the most recent example for somthing really good coming out of SOE.. ALso EQ2 was a pretty good game for its time.. yes it was not EQ but its was a decent game in its own right.

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  cinos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/05
Posts: 975

8/21/13 4:30:42 AM#30

So who's taking bets on when these games will go FTP? :P

P2P worked back in the day of WoW and Eve, as the competition was significantly less and people didn't know of the alternatives.

B2P is my personal choice, but I wish them luck with P2P. The odds are stacked against them. Likely they know so too and just want to get a bit of a cash bump before they make the switch.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1799

"I shall take your position into consideration"

8/21/13 4:35:20 AM#31
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
 

 

This. Of course to maximize revenues almost any AAA MMO is going to follow the above pattern, they get the best of all worlds, initial influx of box sales, steady but decreasing income for a period of time, at least 6 months and perhaps several years. Then they can flip the model and try to extract revenue from the whales and finally the nickel and dime F2P market.

 

Sure, there's a few outliers such as GW2 or EQN but those titles are somewhat cripplewear because of this and lacking in features commonly expected of AAA MMOs, (such as including meaningful character progression) and I realize its all conjecture with EQN, but then again, when was the last time SOE did anything right in the MMO space?

It depends I guess..

Sure if the game turns out to be pretty bad and starts loosing people over the months then yes they will have to switch to f2p.. but even if they do the game will still be bad.

If they have made a good game then numbers will be pretty stable and they will never have to change to a f2p model.. tho of course it will always be an option if needed.

 

As for SOE doing stuff right MMO wise.. well you have PS2 as the most recent example for somthing really good coming out of SOE.. ALso EQ2 was a pretty good game for its time.. yes it was not EQ but its was a decent game in its own right.

Indeed.

It is all about demand.

Basic microeconomics...

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  DeniZg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 485

8/21/13 4:37:27 AM#32

Well, I wonder how do they plan to justify the monthly sub, while having end game content similar to GW2 (WvW and dungeons with no raids)? Also, they are planning to charge sub fee to console players? 

Well, good luck to Zenimax, because they're going to need it.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4583

8/21/13 4:38:31 AM#33
Originally posted by cinos

So who's taking bets on when these games will go FTP? :P

P2P worked back in the day of WoW and Eve, as the competition was significantly less and people didn't know of the alternatives.

B2P is my personal choice, but I wish them luck with P2P. The odds are stacked against them. Likely they know so too and just want to get a bit of a cash bump before they make the switch.

This ^.

B2P just makes sense. And games have shown you don't need horrible models like SWTOR's to pull off a cash shop. Either way, it'll definitely be interesting to see how things develope over the next year or so. Some gamers (at least on this site) are doing a complete 180, now claiming that the same games they've been complaining about for years are now magically awesome again. Furthermore, I see a lot of people re-questioning problems with the current status quo of MMOs we've been talking about (and agreeing on) for close to a decade.

We've all seen what doing the same exact thing that's been done for the past 10 years gets us. Yet here we are, ready to bite the same chocolate, and hopeful it will be 'different this time'. I'll be following these games up to launch, but it looks like I won't be playing all of them anymore. And that's the problem I think a lot of people are forgetting. Subscriptions force people to choose between a game and everything else. In most cases, the game loses. People have lives, other games they want to try out, jobs, bills. Most people can do 1 subscription, maybe 2, but they aren't willing to sub to multiple games at the same time. The only reason people stayed subbed to WoW for so long, was because it was (for many people) their first MMO, and their first subscription game. Many people simply forgot they were still subbed, lol. That isn't the case anymore.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4583

8/21/13 4:48:00 AM#34
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
This. Of course to maximize revenues almost any AAA MMO is going to follow the above pattern, they get the best of all worlds, initial influx of box sales, steady but decreasing income for a period of time, at least 6 months and perhaps several years. Then they can flip the model and try to extract revenue from the whales and finally the nickel and dime F2P market.

 

Sure, there's a few outliers such as GW2 or EQN but those titles are somewhat cripplewear because of this and lacking in features commonly expected of AAA MMOs, (such as including meaningful character progression) and I realize its all conjecture with EQN, but then again, when was the last time SOE did anything right in the MMO space?

It depends I guess..

Sure if the game turns out to be pretty bad and starts loosing people over the months then yes they will have to switch to f2p.. but even if they do the game will still be bad.

If they have made a good game then numbers will be pretty stable and they will never have to change to a f2p model.. tho of course it will always be an option if needed.

As for SOE doing stuff right MMO wise.. well you have PS2 as the most recent example for somthing really good coming out of SOE.. ALso EQ2 was a pretty good game for its time.. yes it was not EQ but its was a decent game in its own right.

This is one of those things that sounds good on paper, but actually doesn't play out as expected in reality. Subscriptions (and this has been shown across multiple games since WoW), force people to choose between your game & others. Unlike traditional games, most people just can't try out every game, if they're all demanding an additional monthly fee. Furthermore, when you actually look at the data, you aren't really getting anything extra for that subscription fee. You're just giving them more money with the hopes it will be worth it. And thusly, most people try and convince themselves it IS worth it, because they've already paid.

However, people have also shown that they won't support a game just because it's good. In fact, many people will support a terrible game with a familiar name / IP, than they will a great game that's hardly known. People have also shown that they are no longer willing to stick out a new game, and give it time to develop into something amazing. People expect games to be released, already including content previous games took years to add into the mix. Because of this, combined with the fact that new (shinier) MMOs are being released every year, people will always leave to go chase the new shiny. And thanks to a subscription model, the chances of them re-subbing is less likely when this happens. It's a barrier to entry.

I agree on PS2 being a good example. However, if you followed EQ2 since it's launch, the game did poorly because of SOE trying to do the whole sub -> cash shop double-dipping model. People generally can't stand being nickel & dimed like that. It was a great game for it's time, but it was one of the first to be ruined by a bad business decision.

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1680

8/21/13 5:03:41 AM#35
P2P?????

An Elder Scrolls game with a sub???? HAHAHAHA... (Do notice the article before ES ;) )

Don't Troll me please! This was basically screaming b2p, but NOOO! The dev "brilliance" strikes again. They intend to charge subs to consoles and to use totally outdated paying mechanic that worked when you had 10, maybe 20 MMOs TEN years ago. The model's failing even WoW, let alone other games.

They totally ruined my interest in this game now. I thought that people would learn from GW 1 and GW 2. I thought wrong. Some people are adamant on repeating the same mistake AD nauseum, instead of the same right move. That's...not very wise is it now?

I mean I could subscribe, but it's 240$ in the first year. For that amount of money I can buy four other games, play countless f2ps and for some change more I can buy quite a few games on Steam sale as well. So basically, TEN games or ONE? Lol what a non brainer(that right there is basically an IQ test)!

GG Zenimax. Just GG!
  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 640

8/21/13 5:13:05 AM#36
Originally posted by Gorwe
P2P?????

An Elder Scrolls game with a sub???? HAHAHAHA... (Do notice the article before ES ;) )

Don't Troll me please! This was basically screaming b2p, but NOOO! The dev "brilliance" strikes again. They intend to charge subs to consoles and to use totally outdated paying mechanic that worked when you had 10, maybe 20 MMOs TEN years ago. The model's failing even WoW, let alone other games.

They totally ruined my interest in this game now. I thought that people would learn from GW 1 and GW 2. I thought wrong. Some people are adamant on repeating the same mistake AD nauseum, instead of the same right move. That's...not very wise is it now?

I mean I could subscribe, but it's 240$ in the first year. For that amount of money I can buy four other games, play countless f2ps and for some change more I can buy quite a few games on Steam sale as well. So basically, TEN games or ONE? Lol what a non brainer(that right there is basically an IQ test)!

GG Zenimax. Just GG!

Ya I am sort of in shock about this myself. I was so sure they where going to use a B2P model since it would fit well with Elder Scrolls Games and the console crowd. Not to mention, despite what people say about P2P being better, that is clearly untrue. They will keep telling that to themselves until it no longer exists at all. They keep blaming F2P games, but F2P is a factor of P2P not working well enough.

People seem to like to touch an electric fence 1000 times before they learn it will shock you every time.

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1164

8/21/13 5:16:50 AM#37

Assuming this is indeed the model then I think they will struggle going forward. At first I am sure it will be OK but 2to early to tell2 but going forward I cannot see it making headway. A subscription based game will put many people off. It might sell 2M but I can't see it selling 10M+. That's a loss of revenue right away.

They need more money? That's fine but they need to look at new ways. They need to offer a product for a cost rather than a simple give us the money and trust that you will get extra content etc..

B2P unlocks maybe for additional content. Built in and ready to go. The type of thing that EA have had some stick for but new areas, above a certain skill level - whatever. So much per new dungeon would be the obvious one but - whatever.

B2P + an annual sub of X to play on the servers. This would mean its not F2P but the cost will simply cover the servers and be well below 13 x $15. 

Strip the monthly sub back to its components and offer the components.

 

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8532

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

8/21/13 5:21:26 AM#38

Personally i think its a mistake, because there are to many good mmos that are "free to play" ..   Box prices are steep, and will withold people from buying the game. Espescially if people realise they be spening $250 over the first year.  

 

On top of that subscriptions prevent people from returning to games...  

 

While from a gameplay perspective subs with no cash shops is the best option, i think from a buiseness standpoint its not wise.  GW2 has made more money in the first year then any subbed based mmo post WoW release..

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1643

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

8/21/13 5:29:16 AM#39

How can i say this nicely...

I don't think the game is worthy of P2P, FTP, or B2P.

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1290

\m/,

8/21/13 5:31:48 AM#40
Not to be too snarky but I will check this out when it goes free to play. It's is great that they feel confident enough to charge a sub. 

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

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