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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Georgeson: "Unlocking [tiers] is a matter of days and weeks, not years.""

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83 posts found
  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 738

8/20/13 11:19:27 PM#21
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Bidwood

On tiers: While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."

Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/17/the-tattered-notebook-quips-quotes-and-eq-next-tidbits-from-s/

Erm.. tier is essentially what levels are. But whatever, they put their own spin on it anyway they want. You're always going to see a difference in power from one tier to the next. Levels can be broken up into tiers as well ex: 1-20 11-20 21-30 and etc. You'll always unlock specific skills at a specific range, you'll always gain a specific amount of stats at a specific range, and you'll always obtain specific armours at a specific range. 

 

Partly true.

Unlocking the tiers themselves seems to me as a loosely-based form of leveling (vertical progression). The reason that is vertical is because higher tiers are more powerful than lower ones.

But the abilities gained with each tier is purely a form of horizontal expansion.

So maybe one could think of it as a hybrid?

 

This is how I picture it:

  Giffen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 240

8/20/13 11:25:08 PM#22
Originally posted by Jagsman32
If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.

I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.

 

But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes.  Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player.  For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month.  For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months.  Casual gamer maybe 12 months.

 

I don't see this as enough progression.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/20/13 11:35:10 PM#23
Originally posted by Giffen
 

I don't see this as enough progression.

....that is because the progression isn't suppose to be in the tiers, because tiers are not levels, because this isn't a themepark?

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

8/20/13 11:36:52 PM#24

this game is sounding more and more like something that will be fun to mess around with when you are bored and in between games.

at least its F2P, that's for damn sure.

  Victor_Kruger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 210

8/20/13 11:37:31 PM#25
Originally posted by Giffen
Originally posted by Jagsman32
If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.

I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.

 

But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes.  Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player.  For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month.  For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months.  Casual gamer maybe 12 months.

 

I don't see this as enough progression.

Sandbox is not about levels and gear grinding, its concepts are giving the players the freedom to do what they want to do and being active in a world that can be built and destroyed by players and monsters. If you are bored go dig a hole and the game will spawn a adventure for you to do, jumping into that hole is your choice. There always something to do as oppose to sitting around drooling on your keyboard waiting for a queue to pop in a normal themepark game.

  Enrif

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 145

8/20/13 11:37:47 PM#26

At first i thought about the "The secret World"tiered and levelless character progression to compare what they want to do.

You have there "classes" too, just in form of different weapons(Blades(melee+tank),Pistols(rangedps+CC),Bloodmagic(Heal+Barriers). Split up into two tiers, the first tier split into two and the second tier split into six sub"skilltrees", and every new skill costed more Skillpoints, and higher tiered Skills even more. But higher tiered skills weren't meant to be stronger but more diverse. Like the tier1 blood heal also put a small barrier, but the tier2 heal was less strong, but with a stronger barrier.

 

In theory that system was good, but they ruined(atleast in my eyes) this with a geargrind and some unbalanced skills and encounters who are a lot easier for ranged ones(assault rifle was one of the best options for dps), but nearly to none encounter where it is good to be melee.

 

Back to EQN:

What Georgeson announced"Unlocking tier is a matter of days and weeks" is that a tier could take some days, another some weeks.

Say Warrior starts at tier 1, it will need around 2 days to unlock tier 2, another 6 days for tier 3 and 14 days for tier 4. this would mean around 22 days(and we dont know how much tiers are planned).

If we expand this on 40 classes: 22days for tier4 multiplicated with 40 classes= 880 Days ~ 2 years and 5 Months.

Even longer to unlock everything if we take more tiers into it, the time to unlock some classes and the announcment of additional classes after release .

 

If you ask me, this could mean you can get fast some more diverse skills but you need very long to get every possible option. 

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 11:45:03 PM#27
I think this game is just really about taking every convention and tossing it out the window. I have resigned myself to just play the fucking thing and not think about it.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 738

8/20/13 11:53:06 PM#28
Originally posted by Foomerang

These guys should stop talking and just make the damn game. Let us know when its finished.

^ This

 

Originally posted by ignore_me
I think this game is just really about taking every convention and tossing it out the window. I have resigned myself to just play the fucking thing and not think about it.

^ And This.

 

Trying to rationalize the inner workings of this game hurts my brain.

I'm about ready to hibernate until launch day.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7636

8/21/13 12:04:07 AM#29

this could be good or bad. 

 

As long as there are enough skill and tiers to progress for a year. Similar to EVE and Wushu. In these games you just don't log on and say "im get this!" Getting "this" takes time. This makes players unique.

 

If it takes me months to complete a set of skill tiers, by the time you see what I'm doing and decide you want to do it too, it will take you a long time to copy. Long systems break cookie cutters.

 

On the other hand if it's too quick to get it all, like it is in TSW, it will shorten the life of the game.

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/21/13 12:04:32 AM#30

I'm just wondering how they will balance things so even the least optimal builds will still be viable. Will content be so easy that any build will have no trouble. If so better builds will roll through content and nothing will feel challenging. And if combat is challenging, will fom builds be necessary for more difficult content, limiting viability of having the build you want? (DDO multi-class was good on paper, but in game there was really only a few builds per class to run any of the difficult settings.

I like the ideas they are striving to but in game-sandbox elements, flexible builds and others but if combat is not challenging, whats the point ie too easy. And since it seems pvp might just be added on and not a pillar of importance, will that be fun enough to hold interest?

More info is needed, probably won't know how well things will work until beta, as most ideas are great until we get into the world.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

8/21/13 12:07:13 AM#31

Georgeson's comment's are nice and all, but there is also an implied "cap", since there are no levels or progression in EQN.

 

GW2 comes to mind, even though SOE is trying to distance themselves.

 

So basically a player unlocks stuff .. unlocks some more .. then some more!!  on a roll .. /unlocks some more!!

 

Then they find that there isn't really progression in this game .. everyone is designed to hit the cap and be perfectly happy (just like in GW2).

 

I want my old EQ back :(

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  kyssari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 160

"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.

8/21/13 12:11:35 AM#32

Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.

 

Seems like there will still be plenty of longevity even if tiers can be progressed through in days/weeks. With the sheer amount of classes available you'll have multiple classes to progress but more importantly just finding those classes will take time. The fact that no 2 people will unlock the same class in the same way most of the time will help with that a lot. There is no googling "how to unlock x class" and then going and doing exactly what the site or whoever you ask says, you'll pretty much have to explore and figure it out on your own for the most part from the sound of things.

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/21/13 12:16:16 AM#33
Originally posted by kyssari
Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.

Bad players will still find a way to be bad players. You can't force skill or brains.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/21/13 12:16:57 AM#34
Originally posted by kyssari

Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.

 

Seems like there will still be plenty of longevity even if tiers can be progressed through in days/weeks. With the sheer amount of classes available you'll have multiple classes to progress but more importantly just finding those classes will take time. The fact that no 2 people will unlock the same class in the same way most of the time will help with that a lot. There is no googling "how to unlock x class" and then going and doing exactly what the site or whoever you ask says, you'll pretty much have to explore and figure it out on your own for the most part from the sound of things.

Not sure how that jives with that "play what you want and level something else" they were talking about.. I do believe they said you can put points into some other class while playing your favorite one....

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2862

8/21/13 12:18:46 AM#35
Originally posted by BBPD766
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by nisrak

What I think they are getting at is that all players will have relatively similar power levels.  Someone playing for 2 weeks will have similar HP, attack damage, etc. as someone playing for 1 year.  The person playing 1 year will have many more abilities, customizibility, and access to many more abilities.  Also, gear doesn't make you much more powerful (in the raw stat power sense), but enhances your abilities/gives you new abilities.  There are several big implications to this:

1. All areas will remain relevant to all players (no more out-leveling certain zones or dungeons),

2. A newer player will be able to group with veterans (somewhat) effectively,

3. Depending on how PVP works, skill will be more of a factor than level/gear,

4. I'm not sure how this will scale to end-game if a player can raid 10 minutes after creating a character, and

5. People are going to have a really hard time swallowing the fact that they aren't really getting much stronger after playing for long periods of time.  WTF! My fireball is always gonna do 20 damage??

I could be wrong about this idea.  We will just have to wait and see (we will know more tomorrow).

 So instead of gear progression and level progression people will have... a retarded amount of classes? I can't wait to see how they'll make all of these classes different in their own way. I truly see hundred upon hundreds of skills in this game but the only difference between many of them are their particle effects.

 Why doesn't Sony come out and say it... Everquest: Next follows the hero class systems in games like City of Heroes, Champions online, and DCUO.

...I know that it's bad form to answer a question with a question....but...

Perhaps because EQN's system doesn't act like those you mentioned and you're only assuming that it does based on the limited information they've released and before it is entirely unveiled?

 It's never bad to answer a question with another question. However, yes everything is speculation when it comes to people on the outside with extremely limited amounts of information. However, I see it happening in the CoH, CO, and or DCUO system.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Victor_Kruger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 210

8/21/13 12:24:55 AM#36
Originally posted by Karteli

Georgeson's comment's are nice and all, but there is also an implied "cap", since there are no levels or progression in EQN.

 

GW2 comes to mind, even though SOE is trying to distance themselves.

 

So basically a player unlocks stuff .. unlocks some more .. then some more!!  on a roll .. /unlocks some more!!

 

Then they find that there isn't really progression in this game .. everyone is designed to hit the cap and be perfectly happy (just like in GW2).

 

I want my old EQ back :(

GW 2 is still a themepark game that is trying to use some elements of a sandbox game to make the themepark more dynamic. EQ Next is a real sandbox game and going to be something most mmo players have never experience before. There is progression but it is there only too give you more options to play with in the sand and not sole purpose of the game.
 

There is no endgame in a sandbox, it doesn't end.

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/21/13 1:16:03 AM#37

So lets just say it takes your average gamer about 10 days to unlock the four tiers for a class. Right there were talking months of playtime to unlock half of the classes (200 days). This does not include time spent doing other things like crafting, or otherwise "gearing up." Sounds pretty good at far as starting content goes.

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 794

Death to Themepark.

8/21/13 2:40:08 AM#38
Originally posted by Victor_Kruger
Originally posted by Giffen
Originally posted by Jagsman32
If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.

I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.

 

But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes.  Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player.  For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month.  For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months.  Casual gamer maybe 12 months.

 

I don't see this as enough progression.

Sandbox is not about levels and gear grinding, its concepts are giving the players the freedom to do what they want to do and being active in a world that can be built and destroyed by players and monsters. If you are bored go dig a hole and the game will spawn a adventure for you to do, jumping into that hole is your choice. There always something to do as oppose to sitting around drooling on your keyboard waiting for a queue to pop in a normal themepark game.

You can keep repeating your personal sandbox mantra over and over, but it won't make it true.

Just because a game is sandbox, doesn't mean its void of intelligent, logical progression.  Any game, be it sandbox, themepark or even super mario brothers, should have a proper system of advancement.  The idea that you can make any building, craft any armor, or tackle any monster from day one is not only illogical, its just silly.

Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Victor_Kruger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 210

8/21/13 3:04:08 AM#39
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Victor_Kruger
Originally posted by Giffen
Originally posted by Jagsman32
If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.

I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.

 

But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes.  Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player.  For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month.  For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months.  Casual gamer maybe 12 months.

 

I don't see this as enough progression.

Sandbox is not about levels and gear grinding, its concepts are giving the players the freedom to do what they want to do and being active in a world that can be built and destroyed by players and monsters. If you are bored go dig a hole and the game will spawn a adventure for you to do, jumping into that hole is your choice. There always something to do as oppose to sitting around drooling on your keyboard waiting for a queue to pop in a normal themepark game.

You can keep repeating your personal sandbox mantra over and over, but it won't make it true.

Just because a game is sandbox, doesn't mean its void of intelligent, logical progression.  Any game, be it sandbox, themepark or even super mario brothers, should have a proper system of advancement.  The idea that you can make any building, craft any armor, or tackle any monster from day one is not only illogical, its just silly.

Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.

Your logic is flawed thinking you can do all those things on day one and shows you don't have much knowledge about what has been said about the game. The progression comes in getting all those things you just mention. Sandboxes are not themeparks what you do in them is a completely different style of game play.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

8/21/13 3:09:16 AM#40
Originally posted by Dullahan
 

Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.

 

nope.  interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.

 

too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays.  its all about the virtual work ethic.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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