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General Discussion  » Subscription $15 and CREDD $20?

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76 posts found
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4813

8/20/13 11:38:58 AM#41
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

This system works for EVE, but that doesn't mean it will work across the board for anyone else.

EVE is a separate beast.

PLEX is successful in EVE because the economy was already established when RMT was introduced so real money didn't establish the value of ISK from the beginning. And also because of the desire in EVE for multiple accounts, there is a legit reason to buy time in the game. I fear in WS, it will just destroy the economy

fair enough comment

 

I know its working for SOE too w EQ2 and Krono

but I agree, will have to see on a game by game basis

I haven't played an SoE game since they did away with their subscription models, but isn't it fair to say that SoE isn't exactly using this same model? Meaning of all the fees (Box/Sub/RMT) they are only using no more than 2?

I can go for a game that has no boxed fee but has RMT and an optional SUB to unlock content. (SoE)

I can go for a game that has a box and a sub but no RMT (FF14)

I can go for a game that has a Box and RMT but no sub (GW2)

I draw the line when they want all 3. 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  silverreign

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 325

It is what it is

8/20/13 11:48:12 AM#42

I would pay a sub over a f2p game any day. I end up spending more in a cash shop then a monthly fee anyways. and f2p is always a hollow shell of a game with low content. u get what u pay for. I for one am glad its sub based.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 890

8/20/13 12:05:02 PM#43
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

This system works for EVE, but that doesn't mean it will work across the board for anyone else.

EVE is a separate beast.

PLEX is successful in EVE because the economy was already established when RMT was introduced so real money didn't establish the value of ISK from the beginning. And also because of the desire in EVE for multiple accounts, there is a legit reason to buy time in the game. I fear in WS, it will just destroy the economy

fair enough comment

 

I know its working for SOE too w EQ2 and Krono

but I agree, will have to see on a game by game basis

I haven't played an SoE game since they did away with their subscription models, but isn't it fair to say that SoE isn't exactly using this same model? Meaning of all the fees (Box/Sub/RMT) they are only using no more than 2?

I can go for a game that has no boxed fee but has RMT and an optional SUB to unlock content. (SoE)

I can go for a game that has a box and a sub but no RMT (FF14)

I can go for a game that has a Box and RMT but no sub (GW2)

I draw the line when they want all 3. 

 

It's each persons decision on whether they classify CREDD as RMT.  Technically, it's simply purchasing subscription time that is tradeable in-game.  Essentially, you're paying for someone else's subscription and because you're paying for their sub, you ask for a portion of the in-game currency they are able to obtain by being subbed.  I understand why you may consider it RMT as the end result it inputting real money and outputting in-game items or currency.  However, I see it as a free market and creating greater accessibility.  

The people complaining about subscription costs should be thrilled with CREDD.  Much like in their touted F2P games, they are able to trade time for money (or something with monetary value at least).

On a side note, I agree that a game would be better with a straight sub and no external inputs.  However, no game company has yet figured out how to stop gold selling and it's not because of the abundance of gold sellers, rather it's because of the high demand from the players.  I can completely understand the "if you can't beat them, join them approach", after all it's what the players want.  Also, the costs of combating gold selling are large, where the CREDD approach generates additional revenue.  As a business, the decision isn't a difficult one.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4813

8/20/13 12:22:33 PM#44
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

 

 

It's each persons decision on whether they classify CREDD as RMT.  Technically, it's simply purchasing subscription time that is tradeable in-game.  Essentially, you're paying for someone else's subscription and because you're paying for their sub, you ask for a portion of the in-game currency they are able to obtain by being subbed.  I understand why you may consider it RMT as the end result it inputting real money and outputting in-game items or currency.  However, I see it as a free market and creating greater accessibility.  

And that is fine. It just means you have more of a tolerance for that then I do.

The people complaining about subscription costs should be thrilled with CREDD.  Much like in their touted F2P games, they are able to trade time for money (or something with monetary value at least).

I am a big meta-gamer I love to play in game markets and crafting is also very big on my list. Every game I have played in where players had the ability to convert real money into game currency has eroded away at the game's meta-game. And If I am to pay top dollar, then I don't want this. I understand that you see opportunity. And in fact there may be, but in my experience, it will not come without a trade off.

On a side note, I agree that a game would be better with a straight sub and no external inputs.  However, no game company has yet figured out how to stop gold selling and it's not because of the abundance of gold sellers, rather it's because of the high demand from the players.  I can completely understand the "if you can't beat them, join them approach", after all it's what the players want.  Also, the costs of combating gold selling are large, where the CREDD approach generates additional revenue.  As a business, the decision isn't a difficult one.

As far as the "There will always be gold farmers" argument. I think there is a negative impact here as well. When you have games like WoW, where there is no formally sanctioned method of gold buying, the devs are always putting mechanics into the game to combat this. In WoW we've seen increasing numbers of different in game currencies. Tokens for this and badges for that. And while they introduce more grind, they devalue gold and keep certain items earned instead of just buying them outright. In Vanilla WoW you bought cooking recipes with coin. By Wrath, you bought them with tokens.

In this game, the publisher is not going to want a hundred different kinds of currency because that will be in contention with the reason to buy CREDD. The gold farmers can take advantage of that more in a game like this.

Will all that happen? Who knows? It's possible. I'm taking a wait and see approach, but I'm exceedingly doubtful this game is going to have the intricate meta-games, I'd loved in the past. And for the money they are asking for, it needs to.

Should it work out that it does in spite of CREDD, then I will spend the money.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  BadOrb

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 758

8/20/13 12:33:22 PM#45

Whatever happend to a pure P2P game ? I guess with all the gold sellers in MMO's these days it can't ever be done again ? I do miss PSU even more now. I don't like the sound of been able to buy in-game credits with real cash , just really defeats the purpose of a fully subbed game to me. Messed up economy from day one , the more real cash you have the more in-game credits and / or items you can buy.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 890

8/20/13 12:49:11 PM#46
Originally posted by BadOrb

Whatever happend to a pure P2P game ? I guess with all the gold sellers in MMO's these days it can't ever be done again ? I do miss PSU even more now. I don't like the sound of been able to buy in-game credits with real cash , just really defeats the purpose of a fully subbed game to me. Messed up economy from day one , the more real cash you have the more in-game credits and / or items you can buy.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

 

That is the general trajectory of everything in life right now.  People with more resources get more and it's really hard to fault the logic behind that.  It's considerably easier to create an emotional argument highlighting how it's unfair, but such arguments do not fit logic.

Having said that, gold selling is a HUGE business and there is massive demand for farmed gold from the players themselves.  There are tons of people that will tell you how terrible gold selling is, then go buy a big chunk of in game currency without saying a word to anyone about it.  Supply will always rise up to meet demand, so in this case, the players really are the problem.

 

What is a game company supposed to do?  

They can combat gold selling, ban gold sellers, bot gold farmers and gold buyers.  The gold sellers and gold farmers will purchase new accounts (possibly with stolen credit cards) or hack new accounts, both illegal activities costing the game company time and money.  The gold buyers being banned may just drop the game completely, meaning lost subscription revenue.  

Or, the can do something like sell CREDD.  CREDD reduces the demand for outside gold sellers, which reduces the supply (or the ensuing competition to reduce prices and sell unwanted supply cuts most competitors out of the market).  CREDD reduces the number of players submitting their CC and personal information to outside gold sellers, which reduces the number of hacked accounts and fraudulently purchased accounts.  CREDD generates additional revenue for the game company and doesn't kill subscriptions.

 

If it were your company, which would you choose?

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/20/13 12:55:02 PM#47
I don't know why they just don't go with pure sub model. Worst to worst 6 months down the lane they will have to go P2P to save their behind. But this Credd thing along with 15 bucks a month isn't going to work. Right now they are just putting more people off. it is going to effect their release a lot.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  BadOrb

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 758

8/20/13 1:26:41 PM#48
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by BadOrb

Whatever happend to a pure P2P game ? I guess with all the gold sellers in MMO's these days it can't ever be done again ? I do miss PSU even more now. I don't like the sound of been able to buy in-game credits with real cash , just really defeats the purpose of a fully subbed game to me. Messed up economy from day one , the more real cash you have the more in-game credits and / or items you can buy.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

 

That is the general trajectory of everything in life right now.  People with more resources get more and it's really hard to fault the logic behind that.  It's considerably easier to create an emotional argument highlighting how it's unfair, but such arguments do not fit logic.

Having said that, gold selling is a HUGE business and there is massive demand for farmed gold from the players themselves.  There are tons of people that will tell you how terrible gold selling is, then go buy a big chunk of in game currency without saying a word to anyone about it.  Supply will always rise up to meet demand, so in this case, the players really are the problem.

 

What is a game company supposed to do?  

They can combat gold selling, ban gold sellers, bot gold farmers and gold buyers.  The gold sellers and gold farmers will purchase new accounts (possibly with stolen credit cards) or hack new accounts, both illegal activities costing the game company time and money.  The gold buyers being banned may just drop the game completely, meaning lost subscription revenue.  

Or, the can do something like sell CREDD.  CREDD reduces the demand for outside gold sellers, which reduces the supply (or the ensuing competition to reduce prices and sell unwanted supply cuts most competitors out of the market).  CREDD reduces the number of players submitting their CC and personal information to outside gold sellers, which reduces the number of hacked accounts and fraudulently purchased accounts.  CREDD generates additional revenue for the game company and doesn't kill subscriptions.

 

If it were your company, which would you choose?

A very tough question , as I am an MMO gamer and if I owned a company that was making an MMO. I believe I would have to go down the pure P2P route but would have to have lots of messages about god sellers and explain why I / we went down that route. It's to do with a sense of achievement , you play the game and gain levels and in-game money all on your own. I guess in the end the game might fall flat on it's face if it were hacked etc. So to conclude I would be a hopeless MMO company manager or I would be the saviour of all that is pure in MMO land.

As I said  a tough question , probably the best idea would be the CREDD type system but I would have to put a limit on how much you could buy. Mind you then people would by the extra from gold sellers. Wouldn't people still buy off gold sellers in an MMO if they were selling cheaper than for instance the CREDD system price ?

Selling in-game credits and F2P models of late are probably the reason why so many hop from one mmo to another , max out buy everything = bored.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4813

8/20/13 1:28:22 PM#49
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by BadOrb
 

 


If it were your company, which would you choose?

Well, it isn't my company. So I am just the consumer. I'd rather they continue to try as best they can to manage the gold sellers in a reasonable fashion. No one will say it must be stopped, but we can say, do your best. But for them to say, "If you can't beat them....." is a cop out.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Maelzrael

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/12
Posts: 313

I like games.

8/20/13 1:39:51 PM#50
Originally posted by DingoBoi
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by DingoBoi


The issue I still have is that they are trying to sell this as a bullshit feature for your security rather than call it exactly what it is.  A blatant cash-grab. 

Why does C.R.E.D.D. cost more than a monthly subscription?

This allows us to protect our users and provide secure player to player transactions with in-game money.

 

How does $5 more provide protection for your users and secure player to player transactions with in-game money?  Any basic trading system should be secure and provide the same things, so why does this game demand an extra $5 to provide something that is standard in other games? 

Because AppleBabe345 doesn't give a rat's ass about you or your account. It is a much more secure path to go than buying from a third party, where any number of things could happen - having your newly purchased gold removed from the game, getting yourself banned, getting your account hacked, or getting your personal info used inappropriately.

I know that won't stop you from pounding out "cashgrab" as your response a dozen more times in this thread, but that's the answer.

 

CREDD allows the Wildstar players with extra money and the players with extra time to mutually benefit from each other's assets.

 

 

 

And I agree with you, but the basic trading system should already cover that shouldn't it?  If it's an item to be traded, it doesn't need 'extra special protection' that costs an extra $5.  Or are they saying their basic trading system is so horribly broken it can be hacked with a piece of tinfoil and a paper clip? 

What I'm saying is the reasons they specify don't add up to anything but utter bullshit and a cashgrab. 

Demean my use of 'cashgrab' all you want, but that is simply what it is.  Don't try to tell me it costs an extra $5 to securely trade an item when it simply doesn't.  I only want them to be honest.  If you have money, buy this and sell it in-game for gold.  Secure in-game transactions are part of a basic trade system, it's not something special they have to add on. 

[mod edit]

I'm passing on this game till it's FTP, which it will be within 3 months.  When devs lie to your face, that's never a good sign about the game.

 

It's "secure" because it is a safe in-game way to buy gold from other players, instead of hackers and thieves. So the marketing they are using is not BS... You're just not thinking about it enough.. If you buy gold from farmers, you get hacked/banned or worse, if you buy gold from another player, you don't. Therefore they can call it more secure for their players.

Now about the reason it costs more.. Eve plex also cost about 20 bucks. Buying gold is Taboo, but if you're paying an additional fee to be able to sell that gold, its more fair to players who just work for their money, and it becomes less taboo and more understandable.

I hope this helps.

  Bacchira

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/13
Posts: 51

8/20/13 3:34:03 PM#51

I look at it this way:

Subscribtion is $20 a month, but if I don't need the option to be able to sell my subscribtion in-game, I get a $5 discount.

  indojabijin

Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 88

8/21/13 2:17:49 PM#52

I think some people are missing the fact that the CREDD system is working like a stock market exchange. It is not player controlled pricing. I fully expect CREDD to yield a moderate amount of in game currency but nothing ground breaking where someone can buy fantastic gear without spending hundreds of dollars on CREDD.

At the same time, if the rewards aren't worth it - people won't buy it. However, there will always be people with disposable income that will buy it.

It is a vanity system. GW2 currency exchange doesn't exchange much between gems and gold (at all) - however their game is B2P so majority of it involves the exchange system because of the RNG of chests and events.

 

If this system were to work the same way as GW2 but without the cash shop (therefore removing the incentive of P2W) it would work. Especially since the best armor in game will be obtained in ways that don't pertain to in game currency (raids and dungeons, etc).

In fact, in GW2 there is nothing worth buying with currency as all the best items cannot be obtained that way. I fully expect it to work the same in Wildstar.

The intention of the system is clear: to allow alternatives instead of paying for a sub and combating gold sellers. Considering is it not player run - I think it can work just as well as EVE.

 

Trust me, come launch he richest person in game is not going to be the person selling CREDDs - they usually never are.

  Bacchira

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/13
Posts: 51

8/21/13 2:56:28 PM#53
Originally posted by indojabijin

I think some people are missing the fact that the CREDD system is working like a stock market exchange. It is not player controlled pricing. I fully expect CREDD to yield a moderate amount of in game currency but nothing ground breaking where someone can buy fantastic gear without spending hundreds of dollars on CREDD.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood your post but you are right that it is like a stock exchange, which makes it indeed player controlled.

If you own a CREDD you can ask whatever price you want for it but its real value is what anyone is currently willing to pay for it. The more who wants to buy compared to the ones that wants to sell, the higher the price will be, in other words, controlled by the collective sum of buyers and sellers, the players.

Personally I don't see any problems with CREDD, it's just in-game money going from one player to another. If Carbine were to sell in-game currency themselves though, that would be totally bollocks.

 

edit: Can't spell for crap tonight

  adidassnofkle

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/13
Posts: 39

8/21/13 2:58:35 PM#54
Originally posted by ipeka

Anyone can give me an estimation in EVE , how much effort do i need to give myself to pay for monthly without real money?  I dont have much issue paying monthly but knwoing that i can work for my a free month would be an interesting option.

If i have to give like 80% of my time weekly to earn gold for CREDD then that's a no-no.

 

My friends with top end gear say they can do it in a week if they go at it seriously, like 40 hours.

That is a lot though, eve is a game where you essentially don't play it. I had friends who didn't log in but for a few minutes every month to keep their skills training.
  indojabijin

Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 88

8/21/13 3:37:54 PM#55
Originally posted by Bacchira
Originally posted by indojabijin

I think some people are missing the fact that the CREDD system is working like a stock market exchange. It is not player controlled pricing. I fully expect CREDD to yield a moderate amount of in game currency but nothing ground breaking where someone can buy fantastic gear without spending hundreds of dollars on CREDD.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood your post but you are right that it is like a stock exchange, which makes it indeed player controlled.

If you own a CREDD you can ask whatever price you want for it but its real value is what anyone is currently willing to pay for it. The more who wants to buy compared to the ones that wants to sell, the higher the price will be, in other words, controlled by the collective sum of buyers and sellers, the players.

Personally I don't see any problems with CREDD, it's just in-game money going from one player to another. If Carbine were to sell in-game currency themselves though, that would be totally bollocks.

 

edit: Can't spell for crap tonight

We don't know how the exact trade process will go. I can only base it on GW2 as it's the same parent company. We do know it will be sold via a trading station like in GW2. We don't know for sure if players can set a price or if it's based on a set value that changes based on supply and demand. I expect it to be the latter. If it is indeed the latter, there will be systems in place to allow for the economy to grow with the pace of exchange.

So of course, while it is based on supply/demand it is Carbine who is directly setting the value of CREDDs - not the players themselves. I think that's the safer route to go through.

  Jinzouningen

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 34

Yeah..From way back.

8/22/13 1:45:27 AM#56
Originally posted by indojabijin

I think some people are missing the fact that the CREDD system is working like a stock market exchange. It is not player controlled pricing. I fully expect CREDD to yield a moderate amount of in game currency but nothing ground breaking where someone can buy fantastic gear without spending hundreds of dollars on CREDD.

At the same time, if the rewards aren't worth it - people won't buy it. However, there will always be people with disposable income that will buy it.

From what the FAQ states on the wildstar site the CREDDS are for extending your play time and thats all they said its for. This thing about "if the rewards arent worth it" is f2p talk and there are a buttload of garbage games with cash shops full of vanity bullcrap if people want that. 

Theres no reason to make assumptions or read anything into it, its atm just a way to keep playing the game for people who are allergic to paying a tried and true normal monthly subscription. All of a sudden a game needs to give you some kind of odd ball reward or an ingame hat for people to play. Like i said theres already crap games that do that.

  Kayo45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 296

8/22/13 8:55:25 AM#57
I dont understand why developers never think outside the box when it comes to payment models. They can go for either separate f2p and p2p servers where cash shop items never go to f2p. Or they can do the asian model thing where you pay by the hour.

Not that i know for a fact those would work out better but at least its not alienating any potential players or at least addresses the concerns of both sides (no cash shop for p2p, no pressure to play for p2p). True freeloaders that never buy anything dont really matter ..... dont see why any dev would want them taking up resources.
  Betaguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2640

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

8/22/13 8:58:45 AM#58
Originally posted by DingoBoi

A monthly sub costs $15, but you can also buy and resell CREDD for $20. 

 

Why does C.R.E.D.D. cost more than a monthly subscription?

This allows us to protect our users and provide secure player to player transactions with in-game money.

 

I'd like to know how?  It seems to make no sense to me other than being a blatant cash grab.  Can anyone actually explain why CREDD costs $5 more than a monthly sub?  Because the reasons they cite simply don't add up to anything but scamming you out of an extra $5.

And... let's not forget the blatant cash grab of the $60 retail box cost that has been traditionally for consoles, not pc games.  All this simply reeks of cashgrab.

Defiance came out with a $60 price tag... and.. well.. the game really suxxors.  Should have been FTP.  I'm thinking I'll pass on this failure.

 

 

Nothing wrong with cash grabs, the company want's to make money... can't say I blame them. I haven't really heard tell of a company that want's to make as little as possible, that would be just bad buisness.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 890

8/22/13 9:02:55 AM#59
Originally posted by Kayo45
I dont understand why developers never think outside the box when it comes to payment models. They can go for either separate f2p and p2p servers where cash shop items never go to f2p. Or they can do the asian model thing where you pay by the hour.

Not that i know for a fact those would work out better but at least its not alienating any potential players or at least addresses the concerns of both sides (no cash shop for p2p, no pressure to play for f2p). True freeloaders that never buy anything dont really matter ..... dont see why any dev would want them taking up resources.

 

Maybe in their business model, it's not worth providing service to someone that doesn't want to spend $15 per month?  There is some amount of bandwidth, support and PR costs associated with every player.  In my experience, the F2P players are more likely to whine about the cost of microtransactions, as well as "strongly" suggest all of the free things they should receive.  That's both a headache that may not be worth dealing with and negative publicity that they may prefer not to have.  I'm not certain of this and don't have any statistics to back it up, but it's a plausible hypothesis.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11514

8/22/13 9:10:50 AM#60
Originally posted by indojabijin

We don't know how the exact trade process will go. I can only base it on GW2 as it's the same parent company.

a better model is EQ2 and EVE

both Krono and PLEX are used in the same way as CREDD  (tradeable monthly sub tokens)

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