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General Discussion  » What does hardcore mean to you?

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69 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/20/13 2:04:19 PM#21

Warning: This is a very generalized paintbrush, and applied quite broadly. If you consider yourself 'hardcore' you may want to skip reading the following, rather than reaching for your report button. It is only personal opinon. Thank you.

"Hardcore: Willing to self-appoint myself to the position, and eager to tell everyone who might listen how badass I am at every possible opportunity."

Sure, that's not very flattering. But I've been watching the forum antics for about three decades now. To me; "hardcore" is a synonym for "poseur". Self-aggrandizement addicts. Hubris huggers. MMOsochists.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4820

8/20/13 2:11:13 PM#22

I'm always surprised there are so many "hardcore" players. Considering the inability to procreate is one of the key factors in being hardcore you'd think they'd be a dieing breed.

It sort of flies in the face of the laws of nature.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Arcona

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1192

8/20/13 2:23:24 PM#23
Originally posted by Iselin

"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

The proponents of this game style derive a lot of self-satisfaction from their ability to withstand pain and suffering and are openly contemptuous of any players that don't share their masochistic preference.


Yeah, the first mmorpgs were a pain to play, no minimap, almost no quests so you had to grind, extremely slow leveling, etc

But the the computers were slow and the developers had few resources.

With the technology today we can have more realistic setbacks instead of making you run to your corpse for 10 minutes.

Everquest Next you can spend two months building a city, and then watch it be taken apart by a Orc invasion.

Now that is hardcore.

  General-Zod

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 558

Kneel.

8/20/13 2:32:34 PM#24
Originally posted by georgatos7

For me hardcore means.

 

- Freedom but real consequencies for every action (good or bad).

- Complex mechanics that reward the smart and the knowledgeable (crafting, skill weaknesses, politics etc).

- Real depth in guild politics and meaningful social aspects of the game. (ex. Need for good relations with good player merchats, crafters or knowledgeable players in general)

- Player skilled combat that needs good reaction times, good aim and movement, good decision making and good and everchanging team tactics.

- A dangerous world. No easy mode no matter the level.

- Real consequences in case of death.

- Dynamic systems that doesnt hand you everything on a silver platter as Sanshi44 said.

 

Lets be honest.

Ability spamming easy mode for 15 hours in the same strategic terms and without consequences other than the time lost in case of failure/death and with no real challenge is a wrong perception of hardcore.

That's carebear grind.

The only person that got it right....

  Anthur

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 624

8/20/13 2:36:48 PM#25
Originally posted by Iselin

"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

[mod edit]

"Hardcore" is the opposite of the belief system that MMORPGs should be only about having fun but instead they should also be about effort and challenge because, they say, it is not rewarding to play if you gain everything without even trying.


The gain everything without even trying can be anything from super radar maps with gps systems and auto navigation to complete ability to solo any content, no requirement to communicate with anyone and total lack of mob AI.


It's not the gaming equivalent of "gain everything without even trying" or "life is easy and everyone will get to paradise."
 

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1820

"I shall take your position into consideration"

8/20/13 2:46:33 PM#26

Originally posted by Rusque

Hardcore is usually considered one of three things:

1. Harsh penalties for some part of the gameplay (on death, on territory loss . . . etc)

2. Time required for advancement , often tedious and repetitious.

3. Unrestricted open PvP.

 

I don't necessarily agree with those sentiments defining hardcore, but generally speaking that's what self proclaimed hardcore players look at.

What you're saying (OP) about SF4 is that players who are extremely dedicated and put in a great deal of effort are hardcore, and that's what I would agree with. You can play Super Mario Bros in a hardcore manner (speed runs, 100%'ing, 0 deaths, so on), but in the end it's still an extremely accessible game that many of us beat when we were six years old - so it's very casual at the same time.

 

I personally don't care for open world PvP in MMO's and have been called a carebear casual for that on various occasions, but at the same time I'm pretty hardcore into Dota 2 which isn't exactly for the faint of heart as it requires a lot of dedication and practice along with in-game knowledge.

 

I guess we can boil it down to hardcore game = a game that requires more of it's players. More attention, more time, more effort. That's doesn't always equate to better, it just means more.

It's also a barrier to entry which is why I think people want to see it so that they can keep other players out of their level via artificial means. If a game requires 3 years to reach level cap, even if it means grinding really easy to kill mobs, most players won't have the time or patience to do that. And those who do will enjoy feeling smug knowing that others couldn't hack it.

 

Nicely summed up in 3 points. I completely agree.

I want my future MMORPG to include all of them.

Originally posted by Rorrin

01) xp loss on death

02) average 12 months to reach max level

03) no mini-map

04) no map period

05) advancement only via group reliance

06) spawn camping for rarest items

07) no quest markers or quest log

08) 40+ person raids

09) open world conflict, either through pvp or mob tagging, kill stealing

10) requires 8+ hour gaming sessions to progress

11) requires min-maxing to shine and really stand out above your peers

12) possibility of losing corpse on death, corpse dragging

13) dungeons you can get lost in

14) no sparkly trail showing you where to run to next

15) guild membership mandatory to succeed

16) class and role reliance to succeed

17) minimal, and meaningful, fast travel - fast travel is a privilege, not a right mentality

18) non-instanced dungeons

19) willing to gear up others before yourself to progress

20) mobs that can 2-shot you are in every zone

Some nice points here either. I agree with most of them.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12306

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/20/13 2:58:46 PM#27
a degree to which an activity or behavior is taken.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  slickbizzle

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/11
Posts: 451

8/20/13 3:00:52 PM#28
Someone that doesn't play video games, for a start.  Then there would other variables I would equate with "hardcore" from there.
  Mahavishnu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/12
Posts: 339

8/20/13 3:03:57 PM#29
This strange Illusion that one day in a new MMO, one will spend hours of gaming together with a big guild consisting of old friends from the good old EQ1-days. And they will rule their server in PvE and PvP, they will have better gear than everybody else and they deserve it and they will own all other weak casuals - rightfully so.

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 697

Make worlds not stories

8/20/13 3:06:15 PM#30

Diffucult - Devs not fearing to have people fail.. and learn.. and become better (this is what builds characters and stories).

Consequence - Mistakes or poor decisions matters, playing well is rewarded (keeps long term players interested, makes newbies have something to stride for).

Rewarding - Putting time and efford into the game will make You signifcantly better than those who put less efford (and that is ok).

Advanced - Multiple solutions to everything from combat to builds to roles to playstyle (or call it Diversity).

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/20/13 4:07:53 PM#31

A state of mind that can be achieved or induced and must be maintained for motivation. So the devs have to rig the entire game or they quit.  I don't want to play in a façade anymore.

I will play a game where the hardcore slaughter me the entire time I play, but I wont play any game where the makers invite everyone to play then pick sides. Or consider a game that is designed to keep a group elevated. Been there.

Ill watch tv instead if this is how pc games work now.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  svann

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 1633

8/20/13 4:13:52 PM#32
Hardcore means the part of the game catering to the top 5% of the population.  If you make the whole game hardcore you cut out 95% of your potential customers.  The right way (maximize profit potential) would be to make most of the game for your base, and then add enough hardcore to satisfy the hardcore crowd.
  Mishakai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 106

8/20/13 4:18:56 PM#33

Hardcore Game: A game that requires skill to play and has harsh penalties for playing like a moron.  EVE is a good example of this.

Hardcore Gamer: Someone who thinks they are some kind of special snowflake and calls anybody who disagrees with them casual.  They generally have the least to show in game except a large number after typing in a command similar to /played.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3808

8/20/13 4:35:28 PM#34
Originally posted by Arcona
Originally posted by Iselin

"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

The proponents of this game style derive a lot of self-satisfaction from their ability to withstand pain and suffering and are openly contemptuous of any players that don't share their masochistic preference.


Yeah, the first mmorpgs were a pain to play, no minimap, almost no quests so you had to grind, extremely slow leveling, etc

But the the computers were slow and the developers had few resources.

With the technology today we can have more realistic setbacks instead of making you run to your corpse for 10 minutes.

Everquest Next you can spend two months building a city, and then watch it be taken apart by a Orc invasion.

Now that is hardcore.

And fun! 

  Dullahan

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 754

Death to Themepark.

8/20/13 4:37:01 PM#35
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Now a days most would say its hardcore if they die as they level. :P

Sad, but true.

Originally posted by Rorrin

01) xp loss on death

02) average 12 months to reach max level

03) no mini-map

04) no map period

05) advancement only via group reliance

06) spawn camping for rarest items

07) no quest markers or quest log

08) 40+ person raids

09) open world conflict, either through pvp or mob tagging, kill stealing

10) requires 8+ hour gaming sessions to progress

11) requires min-maxing to shine and really stand out above your peers

12) possibility of losing corpse on death, corpse dragging

13) dungeons you can get lost in

14) no sparkly trail showing you where to run to next

15) guild membership mandatory to succeed

16) class and role reliance to succeed

17) minimal, and meaningful, fast travel - fast travel is a privilege, not a right mentality

18) non-instanced dungeons

19) willing to gear up others before yourself to progress

20) mobs that can 2-shot you are in every zone

 

This basically nails it.  Especially class and role reliance, grouping and keeping everything completely open (non-instanced) and contested.

edit- oops didn't see number 5.

Also, don't know about the whole "8 hours sessions" to progress.  In EQ1, you could progress at a lot of things in but a few hours.  Every moment felt meaningful to me, even when I could only play for a few hours.  Just having 30 minutes to travel from one city to another was time well spent.

 

 

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Mr.Kujo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

8/20/13 4:46:14 PM#36
Originally posted by cowboyoni

I don't see why a game can't satisfy both the hardcore audience and casual audience at the same time.

Let me explain this in one simple example. The old Knight Online - never claimed to be hardcore, but it kinda is for todays low standards. Every death caused a loss of 3% experience for current level. Not much, huh? Well, for a level 5 it is not much, but for level 60 it was around 2 hours of farming in good party. High level monsters could 1 hit KO you, if you weren't careful. If you played for 6 hours straight, you got anything from 6% to -60% some people deleveled. Imagine a casual in that environment. Imagine someone playing two hours a day. Imagine he dies two times and now he needs another two days to get back to were he was :)

 

So I say again, what does hardcore mean to you :) 

- death penalty

- one hit KO for high level monsters

- monsters have debuffs

- progressing needs to be slow

- level cap is not for everyone

 

Note:

It is not the time, that casuals lack, it is patience. If something takes a lot of time to be done, it doesn't matter if you have 1 hour a day or 6, you will get there eventually if you keep going. But it requires effort, something that scares people away now.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19119

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/20/13 5:03:16 PM#37

Hard core: noun

1  :  anyone who plays MMORPG's more than I do

2  :  anyone who is richer, has better gear, belongs to a larger guild, etc than me

3:    anyone who plays and enjoys the same "hardcore" MMORPG's that I do instead of WOW and it's many clones

See also: Leet gamers, Diehards, Old-schoolers and BitterVets  

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1374

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/20/13 5:09:26 PM#38


Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by Iselin "Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win. The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI. It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die." [mod edit]
Awesome answer. Post of the day for me.

If I want fun, I'll watch cartoons. I play games to engage and challenge my brain; and there can be no challenge without risk.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Mahavishnu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/12
Posts: 339

8/20/13 5:17:14 PM#39

MMOs have never been challenging or engaging - they have been tedious and boring, that is the reason why they had to be changed.

Chess is a really challenging and engaging game. However, there is no grind and no elitisism, no epic gear and no stupid hardcore vs casual discussion.

My advise: Learn to play an Instrument, this is one of the most challenging and engaging things, but you get more fun than in any video game ever made.

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  c0exist

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 187

8/20/13 5:21:30 PM#40

hardcore game includes things like exp loss upon death,

8-12 months to get to max level,

grouping to get important quests done,

mobs that can one shot you in most zones just to name a few.

 

hardcore gamer is one that can devote time to the game; those that think about what they are going to do in game while they are at work.  they plan their day around the game and are willing to lose sleep to wait for that group doing the run for that rare piece of armor. 

 

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