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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why games live EVE and Minecraft are successful...

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51 posts found
  bubbabill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/13
Posts: 82

8/18/13 4:30:42 PM#21
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by grimgryphon

If that were the reason, then Darkfall should be a mega hit.

 

Yeah cause EvE was a mega hit right off the bat.... LOL Not saying Darkfall ever will be, but it's a baby compared to EvE.

 

EvE was crap when it first started. Very few people actually got into it. It was a niche game and the developers took care of them (players) and listened to what actual players wanted (not the casuals who come and go). That's what made it a hit. Now look at them, putting out games on Consoles, making a new MMO.... and the people on the forums say Niche games can't work haahahahahahahhahaHAHAHhahAhAhHAAHahAHhhAHhhAhAHAHAhahAhAhahAhahaHaHaHaHHhAhAh.

i just wished all the pvp type would go to eve and leave the pve games the fuck alone.  im a casual and i would never go to eve and want it changed and i would the pvp types would do the same

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/18/13 4:39:05 PM#22
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

And I say these games are successful in spite of either clunky graphics or brutal PVP.

The reason?

Player freedom

The devs have created the environment and turned the players loose to do what they will, within the parameters of their characters' abilities.  The players are not railroaded, boxed in by some "story", or forced down paths they wish not to follow; the players are free-willed in a free-range world (or universe).

And this speaks volumes.  And the players have responded with their wallets, in many cases.  And this is why these games can beat out the WOW clones, despite the polish and graphical advantages of the latter. 

What exactly are you trying to say...?

Player freedom is beneficial, but hopefully you don't intend to imply (through omission) that it's more valuable than other game elements.

I mean, we can restate your OP except pointing to WOW and Mass Effect's themepark successes, the reason for that success (higher quality content), and also point out the magnitude of that success (basically the most successful games out there.)

Or we could go the opposite direction and pick an even more niche title than the ones you mentioned, and fixate on some core trait of that game which makes it successful in spite of being niche, and then...what?  What exactly would any of that say?  Not much it seems.

Well, WoW's success was directly lifted from emergent gameplay from eq that was born from freedom. The most success ever right? Sure they did enough to take all the credit, but it was eq's emergent gameplay that inspired it.

It means our experts were wrong again. That's all. You would think emergent gameplay would pretty fairly important to have around considering. All the kids are flocking to minecraft, Not mmorpgs. Wonder why? Just dismiss it, means nothing.

Freedom is found in games like Skyrim and gta as well. More games that should fail according to our experts.

I believe what is being implied is there is more than one way to make an mmorpg and be very successful.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/18/13 10:02:40 PM#23
Originally posted by bubbabill
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by grimgryphon

If that were the reason, then Darkfall should be a mega hit.

 

Yeah cause EvE was a mega hit right off the bat.... LOL Not saying Darkfall ever will be, but it's a baby compared to EvE.

 

EvE was crap when it first started. Very few people actually got into it. It was a niche game and the developers took care of them (players) and listened to what actual players wanted (not the casuals who come and go). That's what made it a hit. Now look at them, putting out games on Consoles, making a new MMO.... and the people on the forums say Niche games can't work haahahahahahahhahaHAHAHhahAhAhHAAHahAHhhAHhhAhAHAHAhahAhAhahAhahaHaHaHaHHhAhAh.

i just wished all the pvp type would go to eve and leave the pve games the fuck alone.  im a casual and i would never go to eve and want it changed and i would the pvp types would do the same

Developers change the games themselves, no need to worry about the players. As a pve casual, you'd probably have more luck in eve.

Casuals are the largest group and exactly who I would target for an mmo. I wouldn't invite you to play only to make others feel hardcore. A true casual MMO for the casuals is the next big one.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3625

8/18/13 10:36:26 PM#24
I really couldn't tell you why either one was successful to be honest...I found both of them incredibly boring....I'll take just about any fantasy based game over either of those any day.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

8/18/13 10:36:28 PM#25
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Player freedom


 

I have two people at work who I would consider huge gamers and they don't like games that give the player too much freedom as they would rather play "a game" then wander around in their own freedom.

Player freedom doesn't work for everyone.

The real question is whether the game is fun. Freedom is not always fun.

The freedom to finish your mission in many ways (like that in Dishonored) is fun.

Freedom to wander around a huge dessert with nothing to do is not fun.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/18/13 11:41:07 PM#26
Originally posted by FinalFikus

Well, WoW's success was directly lifted from emergent gameplay from eq that was born from freedom. The most success ever right? Sure they did enough to take all the credit, but it was eq's emergent gameplay that inspired it.

It means our experts were wrong again. That's all. You would think emergent gameplay would pretty fairly important to have around considering. All the kids are flocking to minecraft, Not mmorpgs. Wonder why? Just dismiss it, means nothing.

Freedom is found in games like Skyrim and gta as well. More games that should fail according to our experts.

I believe what is being implied is there is more than one way to make an mmorpg and be very successful.

Well certainly I'd agree that the gameplay in WOW involves a moderate amount of player freedom, but to me it's Blizzard's understanding of pre-MMORPG gaming (not MMORPGs, but other games) that made the biggest difference.

It's always felt clear that gameplay quality was the reason for WOW's success.  Specifically it was many factors, many of which came from pre-MMORPGs.  I didn't play EQ1 or UO at the time, so this list is mostly in comparison with the ~10 early MMORPGs I did play (which by comparison had really lousy gameplay.)  WOW's gameplay strengths were:

  • Controls.  Tight, crisp controls set WOW apart from early MMORPGs.
  • Player Abilitty Design.  In many early MMORPGs you'd do little more than auto-attack and wait, with the only decision being "Is my health falling faster than the mobs?  I'd better run." Whereas WOW involved a lot more direct decision-making each combat (frost bolt to snare, fireballs/fireblasts to damage, frost nova to root it when it's close, so you can blink to distance yourself and start the frostbolt/fireball sequence over.)
  • Mob Ability Design.  The mobs themselves frequently had unique abilities to learn to deal with too, so if a mob roots itself to do a final high-damage poison attack right as it nears death you have to judge whether you think you can finish it off just in time or whether you should back off to avoid the attack -- and it actually factors in to your overall grinding efficiency.  This type of optimization gameplay was much rarer in earlier MMORPGs (and sadly is still rare nowadays, with games like SWTOR releasing with virtually no mob variety to speak of.)
  • Strong Teamplay, courtesy of the Trinity.  This is the element which seems most clearly pulled from EQ1 and was really the final glue that kept me playing WOW longterm once I started grouping.
All of which is sort of a flimsy overview of the core reasons WOW's gameplay set it so far ahead of earlier MMORPGs.
 
Point being that while player freedom is sort of an element in some of those things (you're free to play around with different skill rotations due to the ability design elements) it's not really the driving element behind WOW's success by any stretch.
  LeGrosGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 214

8/18/13 11:54:10 PM#27
 If you're a huge fan of PvP and got friends to play with, then you really need to head to EVE-Online. The PvP is the best out there. Thank God for it's PvP otherwise the game would of been dead years ago. I've enjoyed EVE for 8 years but now moving on to other games, since EVE can be very time consuming and isolating at times, to the point where it felt like a 2nd RL job.    I suggest becoming a pirate with some friends and just wreck havoc for profit and kill mails!! Way more fun!! 
  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/18/13 11:57:49 PM#28
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by FinalFikus

Well, WoW's success was directly lifted from emergent gameplay from eq that was born from freedom. The most success ever right? Sure they did enough to take all the credit, but it was eq's emergent gameplay that inspired it.

It means our experts were wrong again. That's all. You would think emergent gameplay would pretty fairly important to have around considering. All the kids are flocking to minecraft, Not mmorpgs. Wonder why? Just dismiss it, means nothing.

Freedom is found in games like Skyrim and gta as well. More games that should fail according to our experts.

I believe what is being implied is there is more than one way to make an mmorpg and be very successful.

Well certainly I'd agree that the gameplay in WOW involves a moderate amount of player freedom, but to me it's Blizzard's understanding of pre-MMORPG gaming (not MMORPGs, but other games) that made the biggest difference.

It's always felt clear that gameplay quality was the reason for WOW's success.  Specifically it was many factors, many of which came from pre-MMORPGs.  I didn't play EQ1 or UO at the time, so this list is mostly in comparison with the ~10 early MMORPGs I did play (which by comparison had really lousy gameplay.)  WOW's gameplay strengths were:

  • Controls.  Tight, crisp controls set WOW apart from early MMORPGs.
  • Player Abilitty Design.  In many early MMORPGs you'd do little more than auto-attack and wait, with the only decision being "Is my health falling faster than the mobs?  I'd better run." Whereas WOW involved a lot more direct decision-making each combat (frost bolt to snare, fireballs/fireblasts to damage, frost nova to root it when it's close, so you can blink to distance yourself and start the frostbolt/fireball sequence over.)
  • Mob Ability Design.  The mobs themselves frequently had unique abilities to learn to deal with too, so if a mob roots itself to do a final high-damage poison attack right as it nears death you have to judge whether you think you can finish it off just in time or whether you should back off to avoid the attack -- and it actually factors in to your overall grinding efficiency.  This type of optimization gameplay was much rarer in earlier MMORPGs (and sadly is still rare nowadays, with games like SWTOR releasing with virtually no mob variety to speak of.)
  • Strong Teamplay, courtesy of the Trinity.  This is the element which seems most clearly pulled from EQ1 and was really the final glue that kept me playing WOW longterm once I started grouping.
All of which is sort of a flimsy overview of the core reasons WOW's gameplay set it so far ahead of earlier MMORPGs.
 
Point being that while player freedom is sort of an element in some of those things (you're free to play around with different skill rotations due to the ability design elements) it's not really the driving element behind WOW's success by any stretch.

On the Player Ability Design part, isn't it really the other way around?

Prior to WOW, there seems to be a lot more decision making both before and during battle. Here are a few examples:

  • Auto-attack and wait was more of a WOW thing, as most previous MMOs didn't have the class restrictions that prevented health management or - almost completely foreign to today's MMOs - mana and spell resource management. When was the last time you ran out of mana during a single battle with a mob?
  • WOW is actually one of the last MMOs to require combat consumables, as spell components and projectiles became a thing of the past after it.
  • The frost/slow, fire/damage thing was the result of the removal of different elements and attack types having different effects. In previous MMOs you really wouldn't cast fire spells on a magma golem, but you wouldn't think twice about it in WOW and later MMOs. Since elements and damage type had lost their meaning, they were replaced with a new set so that players no longer had to prepare or decide - all tools were with them and all spells were viable.
A lot of the management, movement and variables of combat, for better or for worse, began disappearing with AC2 and started to become extinct immediately following WOW.
 
It seems like part of WOW's success is because combat was reduced to auto-attack and wait, not the other way around.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Torik

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

8/19/13 12:01:21 AM#29
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

And I say these games are successful in spite of either clunky graphics or brutal PVP.

The reason?

Player freedom

The devs have created the environment and turned the players loose to do what they will, within the parameters of their characters' abilities.  The players are not railroaded, boxed in by some "story", or forced down paths they wish not to follow; the players are free-willed in a free-range world (or universe).

And this speaks volumes.  And the players have responded with their wallets, in many cases.  And this is why these games can beat out the WOW clones, despite the polish and graphical advantages of the latter.

 

I agree with this conclusion but probably not for the exact reasons you envisioned. 

EVE most certainly gives a lot of freedom to certain playstyles and is thus popular among the players who like those playstyles.  however, I quit EVE precisely because it did not give me the freedom to play the game teh way I waned and instead tried to force me down paths I did not want to follow.  Instead I went on to play WoW which gave me exactly the freedom I was looking for.  When WoW started to limit that freedom due to its overemphasis on raiding I moved on.

Games that give its intended audience the freedom to play the way those players want to play will retain those players as customers.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/19/13 1:50:25 AM#30
Originally posted by Loktofeit

On the Player Ability Design part, isn't it really the other way around?

Prior to WOW, there seems to be a lot more decision making both before and during battle. Here are a few examples:

  • Auto-attack and wait was more of a WOW thing, as most previous MMOs didn't have the class restrictions that prevented health management or - almost completely foreign to today's MMOs - mana and spell resource management. When was the last time you ran out of mana during a single battle with a mob?
  • WOW is actually one of the last MMOs to require combat consumables, as spell components and projectiles became a thing of the past after it.
  • The frost/slow, fire/damage thing was the result of the removal of different elements and attack types having different effects. In previous MMOs you really wouldn't cast fire spells on a magma golem, but you wouldn't think twice about it in WOW and later MMOs. Since elements and damage type had lost their meaning, they were replaced with a new set so that players no longer had to prepare or decide - all tools were with them and all spells were viable.
A lot of the management, movement and variables of combat, for better or for worse, began disappearing with AC2 and started to become extinct immediately following WOW.
 
It seems like part of WOW's success is because combat was reduced to auto-attack and wait, not the other way around.  

Well like I said, I don't know if things were different in EQ1 and UO (the two big ones I missed) but certainly games like AC1, AO, and DAOC made me feel a lot less like an active participant in combat, and were a lot more autoattack-and-wait with weaker ability rotations (even considering WOW's launch rotations were pretty damn weak compared with nowadays.)  A big part was spell interrupts too, which was a natural dynamic element that I never saw in earlier MMORPGs (either because it was impossible, or because while you were able to interrupt (usually by CCing) the mobs you fought almost never required it or used spells/abilities in a way you could react to.)

Not sure what you're implying with the combat consumables comment.  While true, I don't think that those consumables were net-positive overall.  It was seldom a choice, and usually just an upkeep chore.

Upkeep chore was also a lot of the problem behind the 'buffbot' nature of earlier MMORPGs where you stacked buffs to become a complete killing machine -- the result being that content can never be balanced at a pleasant challenge, and that instead it's always going to be too easy while buffed or too hard while unbuffed.  The happy medium is achieved when there are tighter constraints on which buffs exist.

Early WOW had fire-immune mobs, but that basically sucked.  Some classes had workarounds which merely made them feel gimped (and limited playstyle flexibility by forcing you to be a Frost Mage in Molten Core.)  Other classes were almost entirely screwed (warlocks vs. shadow-immune mobs; they had really crappy non-shadow damage spells.)

So in actual practice, gathering fire-resist gear and only choosing non-fire spec when you wanted to run Molten Core wasn't a particularly deep experience.  

  User Deleted
8/19/13 1:56:57 AM#31

I guess if you're one of those people who actually believe a half million people are playing EvE right now....then you'd make threads like this.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5397

8/19/13 2:02:01 AM#32

Player freedom and top notch graphics do not go together. I was watching an interview with Team 17 the other day. They were talking about how in the old days they did many games, now their success rides on far fewer titles. Production costs have forced them to concentrate on a few titles. That means they don't want to take risks and player freedom is risky.

I certainly favour more sandbox elements in MMO's but that is because the genre is so themepark now. I am not sure a fully fledged sandbox MMO would work as well as some posters think. And these days gaming companies do not get a second chance, so I don't expect us to have that many of these to try out.

Hopefully though we will move to MMOs with at least some extra freedom as the genre has been in straight-jacket for years.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/19/13 2:12:50 AM#33
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Loktofeit

On the Player Ability Design part, isn't it really the other way around?

Prior to WOW, there seems to be a lot more decision making both before and during battle. Here are a few examples:

  • Auto-attack and wait was more of a WOW thing, as most previous MMOs didn't have the class restrictions that prevented health management or - almost completely foreign to today's MMOs - mana and spell resource management. When was the last time you ran out of mana during a single battle with a mob?
  • WOW is actually one of the last MMOs to require combat consumables, as spell components and projectiles became a thing of the past after it.
  • The frost/slow, fire/damage thing was the result of the removal of different elements and attack types having different effects. In previous MMOs you really wouldn't cast fire spells on a magma golem, but you wouldn't think twice about it in WOW and later MMOs. Since elements and damage type had lost their meaning, they were replaced with a new set so that players no longer had to prepare or decide - all tools were with them and all spells were viable.
A lot of the management, movement and variables of combat, for better or for worse, began disappearing with AC2 and started to become extinct immediately following WOW.
 
It seems like part of WOW's success is because combat was reduced to auto-attack and wait, not the other way around.  

Well like I said, I don't know if things were different in EQ1 and UO (the two big ones I missed) but certainly games like AC1, AO, and DAOC made me feel a lot less like an active participant in combat, and were a lot more autoattack-and-wait with weaker ability rotations (even considering WOW's launch rotations were pretty damn weak compared with nowadays.)  A big part was spell interrupts too, which was a natural dynamic element that I never saw in earlier MMORPGs (either because it was impossible, or because while you were able to interrupt (usually by CCing) the mobs you fought almost never required it or used spells/abilities in a way you could react to.)

Not sure what you're implying with the combat consumables comment.  While true, I don't think that those consumables were net-positive overall.  It was seldom a choice, and usually just an upkeep chore.

Upkeep chore was also a lot of the problem behind the 'buffbot' nature of earlier MMORPGs where you stacked buffs to become a complete killing machine -- the result being that content can never be balanced at a pleasant challenge, and that instead it's always going to be too easy while buffed or too hard while unbuffed.  The happy medium is achieved when there are tighter constraints on which buffs exist.

Early WOW had fire-immune mobs, but that basically sucked.  Some classes had workarounds which merely made them feel gimped (and limited playstyle flexibility by forcing you to be a Frost Mage in Molten Core.)  Other classes were almost entirely screwed (warlocks vs. shadow-immune mobs; they had really crappy non-shadow damage spells.)

So in actual practice, gathering fire-resist gear and only choosing non-fire spec when you wanted to run Molten Core wasn't a particularly deep experience.  

AC, DAoC and UO all had spell interrupts. AC and UO even had fizzling. You also had to choose your spells wisely because you were burning up components and could easily run out of one. On the combat consumables, that was addressing your statement that the only decision was watching health. In AC, for example, a player was regularly changing arrows based on the enemy I was facing, as AC and other early MMOs had mixed types of mobs and not "the bear area" or "the brigand area". Also, earlier MMOs had encumbrance as a concern, so that figured into what you could carry before and during battle. The flood rooms and high density mobs of most earlier MMOs, coupled with the lack of a "home" spot in some meant more active combat overall.  In WOW and most later MMOs, you can pick and choose the mobs you want to fight with little regard for any other creatures around you in most situations.

Your point about the buff bots, a major part of both AC and DAoC is a good one, as that did offset the challenge level a lot. AC only developed that issue later on when buffs were increased from a few minutes in duration to something like an hour or so.

I don't remember the fire-immune mobs in WoW. Not to say they weren't there, but that kind of mechanic was so far and few between that one wouldn't notice. WOW, however, was one of the first to make attack type (crushing, piercing, slashing) almost pointless, primarily because of class-based weapons restrictions, which further reduces what the player is doing during combat as they have their best-for-level weapon and no need for anything else. I remember putting together my fire set for MC as it was a unique experience in that game, whereas in most of the other MMOs I played prior (AC, UO, Puzzle Pirates, EVE) having different gear for different situations was the norm.

Whether the old systems were better than today's or not is debatable, but today's seem like they are little more than auto-attack and wait in comparison.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/19/13 3:33:58 AM#34
Originally posted by Loktofeit

AC, DAoC and UO all had spell interrupts. AC and UO even had fizzling. You also had to choose your spells wisely because you were burning up components and could easily run out of one. On the combat consumables, that was addressing your statement that the only decision was watching health. In AC, for example, a player was regularly changing arrows based on the enemy I was facing, as AC and other early MMOs had mixed types of mobs and not "the bear area" or "the brigand area". Also, earlier MMOs had encumbrance as a concern, so that figured into what you could carry before and during battle. The flood rooms and high density mobs of most earlier MMOs, coupled with the lack of a "home" spot in some meant more active combat overall.  In WOW and most later MMOs, you can pick and choose the mobs you want to fight with little regard for any other creatures around you in most situations.

Your point about the buff bots, a major part of both AC and DAoC is a good one, as that did offset the challenge level a lot. AC only developed that issue later on when buffs were increased from a few minutes in duration to something like an hour or so.

I don't remember the fire-immune mobs in WoW. Not to say they weren't there, but that kind of mechanic was so far and few between that one wouldn't notice. WOW, however, was one of the first to make attack type (crushing, piercing, slashing) almost pointless, primarily because of class-based weapons restrictions, which further reduces what the player is doing during combat as they have their best-for-level weapon and no need for anything else. I remember putting together my fire set for MC as it was a unique experience in that game, whereas in most of the other MMOs I played prior (AC, UO, Puzzle Pirates, EVE) having different gear for different situations was the norm.

Whether the old systems were better than today's or not is debatable, but today's seem like they are little more than auto-attack and wait in comparison.

Well few enough classes had spell interrupts in those games that I never had one once.  And even if I had, the amount of mobs who both (a) used spells and (b) used spells worth interrupting was almost nonexistent, which renders spell interrupts pretty low on value.

Fizzling was flat-out terrible game design. Abilities which fail completely due to randomness (and not due to player-controllable factors) adds nothing and significantly takes away from the fun of a game.

In early WOW Molten Core had a large amount of fire-immune mobs (including quite a few bosses) and basically every single pure-element elemental in the game was immune to its damage type.  It's pretty easy to have missed this, since they only accounted for 2-5% of the total mobs, and you'd only have experienced it if you played early WOW (this article says the removal happened at the end of BC, which sounds about right.)

I'm just a bit surprised anyone would feel WOW was auto-attack intensive compared to older MMORPGs.  WOW and COH and maybe 1-2 others are basically the only games where there feels like a reasonable amount of meaty decision-making is made during a fight, instead of just going through an endlessly repetitive rotation (if you got a rotation at all.)

  uplink4242

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 239

8/19/13 8:40:27 AM#35
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
An example to compliment your theory is that Everquest Next will prove once again, that if you try to please EVERYONE, your game is crap. So like Eve Online, gaming companies are better off trying to please only a portion of the playerbase really well, rather than trying to please everyone, half-ass.

I share a similar view to this.

Also, the reason why games like eve are popular is because its mechanics fully support and encourage creating a vast, persistent community. And this is one of the reasons that gets a lot of people to play long term.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/19/13 9:33:55 AM#36
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Loktofeit

AC, DAoC and UO all had spell interrupts. AC and UO even had fizzling. You also had to choose your spells wisely because you were burning up components and could easily run out of one. On the combat consumables, that was addressing your statement that the only decision was watching health. In AC, for example, a player was regularly changing arrows based on the enemy I was facing, as AC and other early MMOs had mixed types of mobs and not "the bear area" or "the brigand area". Also, earlier MMOs had encumbrance as a concern, so that figured into what you could carry before and during battle. The flood rooms and high density mobs of most earlier MMOs, coupled with the lack of a "home" spot in some meant more active combat overall.  In WOW and most later MMOs, you can pick and choose the mobs you want to fight with little regard for any other creatures around you in most situations.

Your point about the buff bots, a major part of both AC and DAoC is a good one, as that did offset the challenge level a lot. AC only developed that issue later on when buffs were increased from a few minutes in duration to something like an hour or so.

I don't remember the fire-immune mobs in WoW. Not to say they weren't there, but that kind of mechanic was so far and few between that one wouldn't notice. WOW, however, was one of the first to make attack type (crushing, piercing, slashing) almost pointless, primarily because of class-based weapons restrictions, which further reduces what the player is doing during combat as they have their best-for-level weapon and no need for anything else. I remember putting together my fire set for MC as it was a unique experience in that game, whereas in most of the other MMOs I played prior (AC, UO, Puzzle Pirates, EVE) having different gear for different situations was the norm.

Whether the old systems were better than today's or not is debatable, but today's seem like they are little more than auto-attack and wait in comparison.

Well few enough classes had spell interrupts in those games that I never had one once.  And even if I had, the amount of mobs who both (a) used spells and (b) used spells worth interrupting was almost nonexistent, which renders spell interrupts pretty low on value.

Fizzling was flat-out terrible game design. Abilities which fail completely due to randomness (and not due to player-controllable factors) adds nothing and significantly takes away from the fun of a game.

In early WOW Molten Core had a large amount of fire-immune mobs (including quite a few bosses) and basically every single pure-element elemental in the game was immune to its damage type.  It's pretty easy to have missed this, since they only accounted for 2-5% of the total mobs, and you'd only have experienced it if you played early WOW (this article says the removal happened at the end of BC, which sounds about right.)

I'm just a bit surprised anyone would feel WOW was auto-attack intensive compared to older MMORPGs.  WOW and COH and maybe 1-2 others are basically the only games where there feels like a reasonable amount of meaty decision-making is made during a fight, instead of just going through an endlessly repetitive rotation (if you got a rotation at all.)

It's entirely possible that my perception is skewed by the fact that in most previous MMOs I mostly PvP'd but when I played WOW, I was PVE straight through. And, yes, fizzling was terrible design. :)

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/19/13 10:35:11 AM#37
Originally posted by Scot

Player freedom and top notch graphics do not go together. I was watching an interview with Team 17 the other day. They were talking about how in the old days they did many games, now their success rides on far fewer titles. Production costs have forced them to concentrate on a few titles. That means they don't want to take risks and player freedom is risky.

I certainly favour more sandbox elements in MMO's but that is because the genre is so themepark now. I am not sure a fully fledged sandbox MMO would work as well as some posters think. And these days gaming companies do not get a second chance, so I don't expect us to have that many of these to try out.

Hopefully though we will move to MMOs with at least some extra freedom as the genre has been in straight-jacket for years.

They will be as long as they're slaves to progression.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3625

8/19/13 12:54:33 PM#38
Originally posted by LeGrosGamer
 If you're a huge fan of PvP and got friends to play with, then you really need to head to EVE-Online. The PvP is the best out there. Thank God for it's PvP otherwise the game would of been dead years ago. I've enjoyed EVE for 8 years but now moving on to other games, since EVE can be very time consuming and isolating at times, to the point where it felt like a 2nd RL job.    I suggest becoming a pirate with some friends and just wreck havoc for profit and kill mails!! Way more fun!! 

 Ruining other players fun....Always a great recipe for success......

  Briansho

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 4791

Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals.

8/19/13 10:23:44 PM#39

Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  uidCaustic

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/11
Posts: 148

8/19/13 10:26:30 PM#40
So can you explain why both games are so incredibly boring?
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