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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Will EQN voxel-world have proper physics?

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33 posts found
  Aceshighhhh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/11
Posts: 187

8/17/13 5:54:10 PM#21
Originally posted by Amylion
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Amylion

1. It's not that hard to code a physics engine for a voxel system.

I think it's more complicated than that as you have to take into consideration balance points and tipping points, types of material that are being simulated. I doubt that the physics engine will be that sophisticated. 

Oh, it would not be that hard to implement, the question is, if it's worth the combined costs of implementation, testing, resources...

I also expect that the physics engine will not tap the full potential.

They said they want to simulate different type materials, explicitely the hardness. A reporter who was at E3 wrote that the water will behave accordingly reflecting the physical attributes of neighboring voxel tiles. So there will be some sort of physical simulation.

But maybe even they don't know yet how far they will go... ;-)

I would be interested too though, try to ask them on reddit! ^^

 

I actually asked this question to the lead tech director(Steven Klug) at SOE Live and he said that the voxel engine does not have an extensive physics implementation at the moment. He did in fact say it would be very difficult to provide proper physics to a voxel-based engine and doesn't know of they will implement it by launch :(. He also mentioned that the trees are props.
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13113

8/18/13 8:16:28 AM#22

Collision detection is hard, period.  If you want physics that involves collision detection, then that physics is hard.  That's why games pretty much invariably have enormous simplifications to physics:  no matter what your character looks like, for physics purposes, you're probably either a box or a cylinder.

To do collision detection in a game, you have several choices:

1)  Few large, blocky, regular objects,

2)  Physics that don't match the graphics very closely,

3)  Very low frame rates that make the game basically unplayable, or

4)  More than one of the above.

3D games typically go with both (1) and (2).  To do (1) without (2) basically means that what you're allowed to draw graphically is largely dictated by what you can do physics for efficiently.

Voxels restrict your options further.  They don't lend themselves to (1) at all unless you're going to make an incredibly blocky game world.  (Without voxels, you'd have the freedom to make cylinders, spheres, and so forth, and not just boxes.)  If you're unwilling to do that and want to avoid (3) (which basically amounts to "game doesn't work"), then you're stuck with having your physics completely ignore the voxels and do something else that is more tractable.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13113

8/18/13 8:21:07 AM#23
Originally posted by Amylion
Originally posted by wizardanim
Originally posted by Kyllien
I hope so too.  But did you see the video with the Iron Golem?  If not go watch it and pay attention to the trees.

I would be surprised if trees were voxel based.  It would seem to be a horrid waste of memory to voxel-ize vegetation, static or procedural.

Trees are made out of voxels.

And how could it be a waste of memory? A polygon mesh with textures is taking more RAM than the voxels...

In traditional rendering, the vertex model and textures only take token amounts of system memory to keep track of which buffers the video card needs to use, outside of a brief period (tens of milliseconds) between when they are loaded from the hard drive and then deleted after being passed along to video memory.

Video memory is the real issue, and there, it can vary wildly.  A tree is likely to have only a few textures, but use a texture many times in drawing the tree.  And if you want 50 copies of the same tree, that takes the same amount of video memory as if you only want one.  I'm not sure how you'd do it with voxels.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

8/18/13 10:03:49 AM#24
First..  physics does not exist in gaming, especially a fantasy MMO..   If it did, there is no way of explaining how someone can dig 3 feet into the ground to expose a cave world underneath the size of Texas..  lol
  Zydari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 84

Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.
Plato

8/18/13 10:19:23 AM#25
The demo from SOE Live showed the physics engine. It showed realistic physics with things falling, crumbling and exploding the way they should. Don't think this will be a problem but also don't think it will be to sophisticated either. Simple realistic physics.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

Thomas Jefferson

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4534

 
OP  8/18/13 1:12:42 PM#26
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
Originally posted by Amylion
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Amylion

1. It's not that hard to code a physics engine for a voxel system.

I think it's more complicated than that as you have to take into consideration balance points and tipping points, types of material that are being simulated. I doubt that the physics engine will be that sophisticated. 

Oh, it would not be that hard to implement, the question is, if it's worth the combined costs of implementation, testing, resources...

I also expect that the physics engine will not tap the full potential.

They said they want to simulate different type materials, explicitely the hardness. A reporter who was at E3 wrote that the water will behave accordingly reflecting the physical attributes of neighboring voxel tiles. So there will be some sort of physical simulation.

But maybe even they don't know yet how far they will go... ;-)

I would be interested too though, try to ask them on reddit! ^^

 

I actually asked this question to the lead tech director(Steven Klug) at SOE Live and he said that the voxel engine does not have an extensive physics implementation at the moment. He did in fact say it would be very difficult to provide proper physics to a voxel-based engine and doesn't know of they will implement it by launch :(. He also mentioned that the trees are props.

 

Thanks for the info - its what I suspected, so a tiny skinny column under a corner of a huge block will not collapse in EQN. I think that will kill the immersion for me.
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4534

 
OP  8/18/13 1:16:50 PM#27
Originally posted by Zydari
The demo from SOE Live showed the physics engine. It showed realistic physics with things falling, crumbling and exploding the way they should. Don't think this will be a problem but also don't think it will be to sophisticated either. Simple realistic physics.

 

They only showed physics on the debris, not remaining structures. See my block diagram above, that is simple realistic physics to you?
  Prenho2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 10

8/18/13 8:04:10 PM#28

Will the damage be permanent or the world will heal itself? if it will heal itself, I see no point in a voxel-destructible world.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4534

 
OP  8/19/13 1:17:40 AM#29
Originally posted by Prenho2

Will the damage be permanent or the world will heal itself? if it will heal itself, I see no point in a voxel-destructible world.

Some stuff will be permanent (like city building aka Rallying calls) - but everything else will heal itself, the thing is we don't know how fast that will happen.

 

  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

8/19/13 1:32:38 AM#30
Originally posted by Rydeson
First..  physics does not exist in gaming, especially a fantasy MMO..   If it did, there is no way of explaining how someone can dig 3 feet into the ground to expose a cave world underneath the size of Texas..  lol

What?

They've had physics in games for quite some time now.

MMO's have had physics in them (EQ2 for example had physics on clothing and hair, Champions online had physics on capes/ragdolls).

Then you have games like BF3 with physics on the environment and such.

 

 

Also regarding EQN, the thing that worried me, as far as physics go, was when the golem thing was walking and hitting trees, isntead of the trees "falling" over like you'd expect trees to do, they all "jumped up" into the air , it looked quite unrealistic/out of place. Hopefully something they'll work on.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

8/19/13 3:48:13 AM#31
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Rydeson
First..  physics does not exist in gaming, especially a fantasy MMO..   If it did, there is no way of explaining how someone can dig 3 feet into the ground to expose a cave world underneath the size of Texas..  lol

What?

They've had physics in games for quite some time now.

MMO's have had physics in them (EQ2 for example had physics on clothing and hair, Champions online had physics on capes/ragdolls).

Then you have games like BF3 with physics on the environment and such.

 

 

Also regarding EQN, the thing that worried me, as far as physics go, was when the golem thing was walking and hitting trees, isntead of the trees "falling" over like you'd expect trees to do, they all "jumped up" into the air , it looked quite unrealistic/out of place. Hopefully something they'll work on.

OK.. I guess my satire post was too complicated to get a "LOL" from you..   Let me write it a little simpler.. 

Fantasy games are NOT Scientifically accurate..  Is that better?  :)  :)

  krage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 407

8/19/13 4:06:24 AM#32

It would be nice if they have true physics in game, but such physics are expensive process wise so I am told. According to the video Amylion posted it does seem there is a good amount of physics, at 16:45, and 26:45 "EverQuest Next: Creating Worlds" panel.

That said I don't expect them to have true physics that will topple off balance structures unless struck, or reroute rivers...then again, not many people should expect true physics since no other MMO really does or even has this level of terrain interaction. 

It be great, but may be asking for or expecting too much for the voxelfarm system in EQN combined with all the other things in game.

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1673

8/19/13 5:42:36 AM#33

Lots of misunderstandings here about how the Voxel engine and the Forgelight engine interact. Read a bit in the blog of the Voxel Farm devs, should clarify most of the questions and misunderstandings.

TL;DR. The voxel engine doesn't actually render the world, its used to dynamically create traditional poligonal meshes, which are then rendered by Forgelight.

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