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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you miss corpse runs?

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293 posts found
  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

8/16/13 9:24:10 PM#261
Well, at least we have a point in case example of what I said in my post now.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/16/13 9:27:52 PM#262
Originally posted by WW4BW

  Not quite the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I shouldn't have said less exciting, but said less desirable when I made the point about corpse runs. 

  And when it comes to traveling I wasnt advocating uneventful traveling or a passive experience. Like it was said in a AC4 dev video they want something interesting to occur every few minutes when on the open sea. Like whales, storms, targets, being chased by others, and uncharted islands. Stuff like that.. Some of which you can chose to engage in or not and some of it will be forced on you since you arent fast enough or clever enough to outmaneuver the enemy.

  In an MMO, with an overall strategic layer as well as a tactical layer, it would be important to have distance and locations mean something. That involves traveling. And while it is not pointless in that situation, can very clearly be made boring. You could have it be cutscene with an in flight movie, an open world train ride, a horse ride or jog where you had to steer, or it could be a race with sneak parts involved and with auto run toggleable so you could focus on your surroundings instead of walking.. because we can both agree walking is not the skill we want to be testing in an MMO... World of QWOP anyone?..  

  It could also be some deeper sailing mechanic.. where you actually had to handle a sailing ship and not some windpowered motorboat.

   Oh damn.. I just said deeper mechanic....I was hoping you would have defined what you meant by deep gameplay and deep combat, before I stepped on that land mine.

Well we've already covered that consistently eventful travel (which would be different from nearly every MMORPG) would be fine.

As for the strategic layer, many games have far greater strategic depth without having the player spend excessive time in shallow systems like travel.  So there are definitely other ways of achieving similar or greater strategic depth than forcing travel on players.  Even if you say "I want to have an economy where things exist at actual locations" you don't have to task the player to hauling those goods; they can hire a limited number of NPCs to cart around goods, which results in 90% of the depth of a typical strategic player economy system with 0% of the tedium. (The precise balance of those carts, and the ways you can protect them or raid them, and the overall structure of the economy, crafting, and city-building, would of course dictate the final depth of the system.  But no part of that requires that the player be forced to engage with a shallow system.)

As for depth, I'm sort of in the midst of pinning down a specific definition which improves upon Sirlin's definition of game depth (which includes a few rather limiting words like "multiplayer" and "strategically interesting".)

  • "A multiplayer game is deep if it is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries." -Sirlin, 2002

The problems with his definition are:

  • "Multiplayer".  Obviously it's not just multiplayer games which have depth.  This is the easiest one to solve as we just remove the word and it applies to all gaming.
  • "Strategically interesting".  This is a bit too limiting as game depth really applies to all forms of player skill.  Skill is composed of some combination of decision-making (strategy, tactics) and execution (twitch, UI clicks.)
  • "years, decades, or centuries" correlates depth a bit too closely with time investment, which is dangerous since obviously if you made the minimum turn length in Chess an entire year the game won't have become deeper, just more tedious.  I'm thinking it's more an measure of problems incurred where the player must make a decision, and the more of those decision points which are incurred before a game is no longer strategically interesting is the measure of a game's depth.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/17/13 1:34:45 PM#263
Originally posted by Axehilt

As for the strategic layer, many games have far greater strategic depth without having the player spend excessive time in shallow systems like travel.

This is the key point. Travel, and in my case, defined as moving from point A to B, without any encounter, or chance of it, is shallow, boring, and better eliminated (for me).

Everyone arguing for adding encounter, and sneaking through enemies territory is missing the point. Those are not "pure" travel. Those are conflict-based gameplay, which *can* be interesting and entertaining.

Just take away all the pure travel stuff like the boat ride in EQ. Nothing fun ever happened there.

And also don't put in a 1 in 100 chance of something interesting happening. That is too much boredom to fun ratio. Just skip to the fun part.

 

  Jackdog

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6374

8/17/13 1:38:51 PM#264

for those that miss corpse runs save yourself a sub fee and just go slam the car door on your genitals once or twice a gaming session. Same effect pretty much

 

At times I am nostalgic for my first car which was a 68 Mustang, but when my brother in law bought a restored 66 and I rode in in it the fun wore off quickly and I rediscovered exactly how uncomfortable the car was

I miss DAoC

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

8/17/13 2:13:17 PM#265

Quick rational moment here.

Is is more rational to think everyone but oneself is missing the point, or that perhaps one is missing the point everyone else is trying to make?

 

This claim, this quote right here....

"As for the strategic layer, many games have far greater strategic depth without having the player spend excessive time in shallow systems like travel."

Circumnavigates just about every factual standard.

 

Can you have deep strategy elements without travel? Yes.

Can you build systems that approximate events done via travel such as automating resource movement and what-not? Sure.

 

Does that translate to a game that can have 'greater strategic depth'? No

 

That notion can only stand on the premise of opinion, not fact. I have given examples previously how actual space and consequent travel can play into a valuable role in conflict with both players and NPCs. Removing travel changes the fundamental play.

Time becomes less relevant (unless it's replaced with an alternative time sink) and the actual options and variety of actions that can be done gets reduced. There is no way around that fact. The removal of an activity will always spell out the removal of action and the potential emergent play.

Events like migration, herd dynamics, the territory consumed in the placement of a town up to a city, the principles of maneuvering across enemy front lines for any kind of greater strategy. These are some of the things that can't simply be approximated and passed on in isolation. Their meaning goes away as the specific reason they work with travel present is missing.

Similar to the concept of 'having an economy with actual locations.'

 

And that is space. Without space there is no concept or meaning to 'actual locations'. There are no events that actually surround them, there are events with perhaps some text fluff. There's conflict, and not much else. That is not deeper, that's just 'cleaner'.

 

At what point does the removal of activity from the players hand finally make one question if they need an avatar at all? With enough actions automated by the NPCs and the choice of interaction taken away from the player, the game approaches a more RTS than personal feel, and you might as well give up a personal avatar for the option to possess someone randomly in each fight.

 

The fact it is acknowledged that what we suggest (travel with activity and emergent play value) is something Axehilt and company have to say they agree to and then disregard to repeat the same thing that 'just walking is boring' points out rather the fact that they are in agreement, but refuse to acknowledge.

 

The sole principle separating the two groups at this point is whether travel is present at a base level to support play or not. It's not a matter of how the game would actually play, because many of the suggestions lands the gameplay in roughly the same territory without us standing on the premise of tedium.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

8/17/13 2:13:46 PM#266
I don't miss corpse runs. I do miss games where dying could actually happen though.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/17/13 9:52:33 PM#267
Originally posted by NaughtyP
I don't miss corpse runs. I do miss games where dying could actually happen though.

The only AAA game that has perma-death is Diablo 3. Play that if you want dying to bite.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

 
OP  8/19/13 2:29:17 PM#268


Originally posted by Deivos
At what point does the removal of activity from the players hand finally make one question if they need an avatar at all? With enough actions automated by the NPCs and the choice of interaction taken away from the player, the game approaches a more RTS than personal feel, and you might as well give up a personal avatar for the option to possess someone randomly in each fight.


Your posts are best read in their entirety for sure; some of the best material I've read on the internet. Bravo. I am quoting this particular piece because it is something I doubt anyone has considered before, and is certainly something to think about.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/19/13 2:41:00 PM#269
Originally posted by Deivos

And that is space. Without space there is no concept or meaning to 'actual locations'. There are no events that actually surround them, there are events with perhaps some text fluff. There's conflict, and not much else. That is not deeper, that's just 'cleaner'.

You don't need "actual locations" to have fun events. The concept of levels, and disjointed locations are used in many video games, including some (but not all) MMOs.

And "deep" has so many dimensions that i doubt you can have a general rule of what is "deeper".

For example, chess is agreed upon almost by everyone that it is a tactically deep game. And it does not have a world, and just a grid of 8x8. There is no travel, no story, no characters, and yet still deep.

I would say whether a game is deep or not has nothing to do with space and location, and has everything to do with the game mechanics.

 

  Kaledren

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 154

8/19/13 3:48:25 PM#270
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Deivos

And that is space. Without space there is no concept or meaning to 'actual locations'. There are no events that actually surround them, there are events with perhaps some text fluff. There's conflict, and not much else. That is not deeper, that's just 'cleaner'.

You don't need "actual locations" to have fun events. The concept of levels, and disjointed locations are used in many video games, including some (but not all) MMOs.

And "deep" has so many dimensions that i doubt you can have a general rule of what is "deeper".

For example, chess is agreed upon almost by everyone that it is a tactically deep game. And it does not have a world, and just a grid of 8x8. There is no travel, no story, no characters, and yet still deep.

I would say whether a game is deep or not has nothing to do with space and location, and has everything to do with the game mechanics.

 

Are you really trying to compare Chess to an MMORPG or any video game for that matter?!!!

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/19/13 4:14:08 PM#271
Originally posted by Kaledren
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Deivos

And that is space. Without space there is no concept or meaning to 'actual locations'. There are no events that actually surround them, there are events with perhaps some text fluff. There's conflict, and not much else. That is not deeper, that's just 'cleaner'.

You don't need "actual locations" to have fun events. The concept of levels, and disjointed locations are used in many video games, including some (but not all) MMOs.

And "deep" has so many dimensions that i doubt you can have a general rule of what is "deeper".

For example, chess is agreed upon almost by everyone that it is a tactically deep game. And it does not have a world, and just a grid of 8x8. There is no travel, no story, no characters, and yet still deep.

I would say whether a game is deep or not has nothing to do with space and location, and has everything to do with the game mechanics.

 

Are you really trying to compare Chess to an MMORPG or any video game for that matter?!!!

 

Nope. I am trying to illustrate the depth of gameplay depends on the game mechanics, not whether there is a 3D representation of a world, or a location.

Using an example seems to be appropriate since many may not get the point.

 

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

8/20/13 7:23:56 AM#272

And you missed where I explained the presence of those things adding and changing the options available to play, which consequently has a direct impact on the depth of any game for better or worse.

 

Like I illustrated before with my passing commentary on battlefield scenarios.

 

Fitting it to your analogy, That space is basically enabling you to string concurrent chess games that can both directly and indirectly influence the outcome of each other chess game. Like players passing chess pieces between one another before losing them so any given game can have an upset in the numbers and control a player can have.

 

You can approximate some of this without needing space, but it will always be at a loss to options. Where there is no tangible point of interaction, there is no manipulation, only chance on pre-scripted variables.

 

It's rather the reason you have the travel time between lanes in MOBAS. The distance between each lane and the time it takes to move through and between them isn't arbitrary, it's has a very purposeful element to it that if you were to remove that travel time, it would cause a very different form of play to be produced.

 

So yes, depth does indeed depend on game mechanics.

Space and location is a game mechanic, with impact and meaning to it's presence that influences play on a strategic and psychological level both.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Althewiseguy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/04
Posts: 108

8/20/13 7:25:35 AM#273
Not in the slightest.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/20/13 10:06:49 AM#274
Originally posted by Deivos

 

Fitting it to your analogy, That space is basically enabling you to string concurrent chess games that can both directly and indirectly influence the outcome of each other chess game. Like players passing chess pieces between one another before losing them so any given game can have an upset in the numbers and control a player can have.

 You can approximate some of this without needing space, but it will always be at a loss to options. Where there is no tangible point of interaction, there is no manipulation, only chance on pre-scripted variables.

 


Space and location is a game mechanic, with impact and meaning to it's presence that influences play on a strategic and psychological level both.

Space and location adds to depth if it is in relation to a mechanics like combat. Hence, even in instanced game, you have a 3D representation of a dungeon. In chess, the co-ordinates are spatial elements for tactical combat.

However, an abundance of space with no activity but traveling inside only adds to the boredom. In fact, it is a loss in options, at least temporarily, if you locked a player into a space with nothing but movement. There are more options if you pop up a menu and ask him if he want to go to point A, B or C.

Note that this is completely different than in a combat situation where distance is a tactical factor.

 

 

  freakky

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 58

8/20/13 10:27:59 AM#275
I found old eq corpse runs added lot of fear and worry. It was good and bad. Might I add at the time I was way to addicted to Evercrack. Long as it isn't to hard to get the corpse that holds all your gear I don't have to much of problem with it. I even had to pay lot of PP to necro to summon it few times. Problem came when I couldn't get cleric to rez or necro to summon. As a rogue I did pull lot of corpses for people but course see invis mob were a problem. With all the zerg tactics today I did like the fear of working your way back to camp site. The fear of when things went bad and fight or flight kicks in. Over all I don't think the added stress and time used is good for most gamers today. Everquest was one few games I felt like my character was another me or person in it self. Corpse run and all that just made it feel so real like. Running naked to get your body is just so funny and hard. Used to keep spare set of gear for corpse run. Falling off the boats and asking gm to summon your body.  It was great and hardcore but most of gamers today couldn't handle it. Also to many trolls today would get people killed in bad spots. I don't see it making come back, least not full corpse of gear and all.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/20/13 10:44:51 AM#276
Originally posted by freakky
I found old eq corpse runs added lot of fear and worry. It was good and bad.

It is all bad for me. I don't want the fear of have to waste my time and regrind in my games.

And every modern MMO without corpse run is more fun (to me) than EQ. Of course corpse run is only one of the reasons EQ is not fun for me. There are many.

 

 

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

8/20/13 1:20:03 PM#277
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Space and location adds to depth if it is in relation to a mechanics like combat. Hence, even in instanced game, you have a 3D representation of a dungeon. In chess, the co-ordinates are spatial elements for tactical combat.

However, an abundance of space with no activity but traveling inside only adds to the boredom. In fact, it is a loss in options, at least temporarily, if you locked a player into a space with nothing but movement. There are more options if you pop up a menu and ask him if he want to go to point A, B or C.

Note that this is completely different than in a combat situation where distance is a tactical factor.

Not really. You're pretending that all choices of where to go are moot because one has to move to get there and then ignoring that it gives you much more freedom to choose where to go than clicking on an icon ever will.

 

That time you drag others out of combat is an important factor too. This is exactly why I mentioned MOBAs, because you have plenty of times where players are forced to shift between lanes to address strong harassment form an opponent who very likely will bail and change lanes solely for the purpose of leading even a single strong player on a wild goose chase long enough for others to suffer for their absence.

 

This is also you repeating the same fallback notion we've clarified multiple times previously, about you, axe, etc rallying against the notion of 'no activity but travel'. Which seems ironic that parkour is enough for you to consider it interesting.

 

Fact is that regardless of if you as an individual can or can't tolerate to take a minute of your time to get somewhere, travel is a mechanic that grants options. A design choice that adds a very different feel and play to the game.

 

Hence the constant popularity of the open world games like Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row, or Elder Scrolls and to a degree Borderlands.

 

A notion you find present in titles ranging from RTS games like Starcraft 1/2 and Age of Empires, into MOBAS like LoL and Smite, especially in survival and craft games like Minecraft and Don't Starve. Important to the pacing of life cycle in simulations such as Sims or Spore and Flight, and into the genre we all know and love the RPG with Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age. Not forgetting our perpetual punching bag the MMO market with WoW and Everquest or Planetside and Secret World.

 

If you notice, your last post is perhaps the most honest. Rather than try and argue the merits of the system, you simply noted that 'for you' it wasn't fun.

 

What stands for one on the pretense of fun does not stand universal. That should be evidenced well enough from the many posts you've already responded to, especially the one you last quoted being pretty clear on that matter.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

8/20/13 1:31:24 PM#278

Not really. You're pretending that all choices of where to go are moot because one has to move to get there and then ignoring that it gives you much more freedom to choose where to go than clicking on an icon ever will.

What pretending? It is true for so many slow travel mechanics.

EQ boat ride. What choice? You get on. You wait 20 min. There is no freedom. An instant menu option is better.

Slow flying to a dungeon. Now you can have the option of flying straight, or take a LONGER detour. Uninteresting and trivial option in this case. Why would i want such option in exchange of wasting my time? A simple click is better.

Slow travel does not always give more options, and even when it does so, the options are not always interesting and fun.

 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2592

8/20/13 1:36:14 PM#279

Corpse runs? Kinda. They were sometimes too unforgiving.

 

Serious death penalties, like DAoC's though? Absolutely. There needs to be risk for the reward to be worth it. It's like, the golden rule of game design.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

8/20/13 1:38:05 PM#280

When you have one destination and the means to get there is not something you control, that's what you just griped against in both EQ and WoW.

 

As for your other comment, well that's natural that not every moment has grand opportunity. The difference is that there is at least opportunity where otherwise there would have been nothing.

 

EDIT: And I just gave a rundown of a couple games from multiple genres that disagree with the notion. Granted you are still qualifying by singling out an extreme condition that is not the issue itself and making an issue out of it.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

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