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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The quality of communities has dropped since WoW (a tirade)

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  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4849

8/16/13 3:12:39 AM#161
Originally posted by Jairoe03

 


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us.  MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model.  This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that.  I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

 

Now accept that and move on.



Its probably because those oldies prefer to soak themselves with nostalgia and spend the greater portion of their time trying to convince others how much better it was back in the day, lol.


In regards to the OP's post, I think the functions of the communities today is normal as MMO's have acquired much larger player pools. Sure, playing MUD's was actually awesome because it had that small town feel, everyone knew everybody and you were somebody given you were online enough times no matter how good or bad you played. Now, it seems like you have to try harder to stick out or get others to notice you. Yes, I agree, no one gives a crap about you in game but if I gave a crap about every random player I ran across, I would never be able to play the game on my own terms. It's the difference between big city and rural towns.


Its funny the patience thing is pointed out but I think MMO's today in regards to socializing requires a bit more patience. There is a bit of that random people helping random people but you have to look for it. I easily found a guild on GW2 within literally 1 day of deciding that I wanted to join a guild. I made my criteria and found it easily with a bit of luck. I think its easy to be pessimistic about "communities" today vs yesterday but I agree with Cephus in having to keep up with the times. The small town feel of MMO's are gone...get used to that. I'm actually glad more and more people are playing.

This ^

The PLAYERS do not like being forced to group with some asshat w/ magical underpants in order to enjoy a game. They want the freedom to be able to play how they want, with whom they want. Granted it's impossible to fully get that and still keep the 'massive' aspect of the MMO, but that's what people want. So devs will continue to make games that support that ideal.

I get that back in the day, when you had to walk up hills both ways, and waiting hours to potentially find a group was 'amazing', but that just doesn't fly anymore. Furthermore, that doesn't make a game more social, it just brings together bored people who have nothing better to do w/ their time. Whether they talk (or not) is still entirely up to the players playing the game. That much has never changed, it's just less forced now. People still talk to each other, people still help each other out randomly, people still meet friends & acquaintances in these games. The only thing that's changed is that you can't force people to play w/ you anymore, because you just happen to enjoy playing that rare class with epic loot no one else wants to be bothered with.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/16/13 12:59:44 PM#162
Originally posted by Vigiliance

It will become a cyclical thing, eventually people will become tired of this and go back to "old school" elements. Granted not all of it will be lost but I doubt this style of game play much like the old school will be sustainable for much longer. Its like that old cliche people always want what they don't have.

That is just your guess.

Not everything is cyclical. We don't see a come-back of text adventures. We don't see a come-back of horse carriages. We don't see a come-back (in the US) for lock-room mysteries.

You simply don't know.

I don't doubt things will change .. they always do ... themepark MMOs are getting old now. But there is no reason that it should go back to the old ways. May be MMOs will die. May be they will become shooters (like Destiny). May be there is some new form of online gameplay will emerge and become popular (like MOBA in the last 2 years).

Who knows.

 

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

8/16/13 3:08:29 PM#163
Some people sucked before WoW. Now that there are more people out there in the gaming world, there is a greater amount of sucky people. Population growth and all that.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

8/16/13 3:17:04 PM#164

I'm throw in largely with Loketofeit and a few others.

 

I do think that the decline within a given MMO did start with WoW, but I don't think it started with WoW Vanilla.  I really believe it came about when the scale of the game diminished and need for community cooperation vanished.

I still remember a Hunter from Vanilla WoW.  His name was Excallibur.  He was the dumbest and worst players ever.  There was a Warrior named Pdog.  He didn't do the warrior quest for defensive stance ever.  You didn't group with them.  No one grouped with them.  I had my list of good players I liked to group with and it was expansive.  You had to form groups- it was nice to have a large list to pull from.

Guilds were extremely important.  You didn't join a dungeon finder or raid finder and get stuck with random people.  There was a social interaction aspect to group forming.  Not always, but frequently.  I rand UBRS probably some 20 plus times with a rogue from my server named Magnate.  He needed a Painweaver Band.  I wanted a Draconian Deflector.  A lot of the time he'd send me a tell over warriors in his guild because we'd worked out a deal where I wouldn't roll on his Painweaver Band.

Raids were large(r) scale operations.  You didn't take random people.  There was a learning curve and it helped to know the people you were with.  Loot allocation was always tricky, but I haven't seen a guild in a while that uses DKP in WoW whereas it was almost a requirement early on.  If you were in a guild that raided, you were invested in your guild.  It's where you got most of your grouping done.  It's where you did all of your raiding.  There was a lot of social chat.  They were large and active.

 

In a lot of games now, you have a dungeon finder.  You click to join an instance.  You complete it.  A lot of the ones I've run in through various MMOs have no social interaction.  Everyone's on different servers.  You'll never see these people again.  There's not much of a point really.  It's really more of a 5 person coop game in a lot of respects.  There's no need for a large guild anymore.  All the content you'd do with a guild is much smaller than it was.  People have gotten left out of raids since the beginning of raiding, but when spots are so much fewer, more people get left out in the cold.  It's difficult and typically much more time consuming for at least a few of the officers and raid leaders to keep track of multiple raiding groups within a guild.  So they don't.  The guilds get smaller or become irrelevant.

 

Content design has been anti-community for quite sometime in most of the WoW generation MMOs.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/16/13 3:40:10 PM#165


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

Now accept that and move on.



It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Baramos79

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 69

8/16/13 3:46:39 PM#166
As mmos become more and more casual and continue to trend towards the f2p model, communities will continue to go downhill.
  Xssiv

Elite Member

Joined: 2/18/10
Posts: 351

8/16/13 3:55:58 PM#167

It's pretty simple, back in the early days of online games and MMO's, being "online" meant a lot more than it does today and most people who were online back then appreciated the concept.

 

These days, everyone is online and gaming online is not a big deal like it used to be.   Hell, even my 5 year old plays online games with his cousins.

 

That being said, I don't think we'll ever be able to recapture the magic that once was so it's probably better to move on and stop trying to blame games and developers for ruining communities. 

 

As soon as everyone and their mother got high speed internet, gaming communities started going down hill.   So if anything, you can blame the ISP's of the world for ruining gaming communities by making the internet so accessible.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

8/16/13 4:05:07 PM#168
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

 

Now accept that and move on.


 


It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

 

Problem is that with F2P it doesn't matter.   

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/16/13 4:51:02 PM#169
Originally posted by Arclan

 

It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

Seems to work for DDO, LOTRO, Marvel Heroes, Maple Story, NWO, and very many F2P games.

When you say "churn and burn", you mean "take over the industry"?

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

8/16/13 6:53:39 PM#170
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

 

Now accept that and move on.


 


It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want.  They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income.  Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out.  You're still wrong.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/16/13 7:40:18 PM#171
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want.  They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income.  Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out.  You're still wrong.

Not only that, companies have lots of data and usage pattern about their own games.

Do you think open world pvp was taken out of WoW by accident? It was taken out because it was NOT popular.

Do you think Blizz make every dungeon LFD-able, and every raid LFR-able by accident? Originally, only one raid was LFR-able. It was very popular (and don't tell me you don't know they have the data) and they extend it to everything.

 

  Vigiliance

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 209

8/16/13 10:40:54 PM#172

Everyone is stuck in the here and now. No one can say what the future will bring. Will that future come in 6 months, a year, 2 years? Certainly the trends that are in place now are easy to see but that won't last forever. Things change whether they like them or not.

Eventually the instant gratification and solo centric game play elements that are a hit now will fall to the wayside and things will change. Does that mean everything is going to go back to the days of EQ and Vanilla WoW... certainly not but you'd be a fool to think that solo centric MMO's will forever keep selling. People will tire of this style and inevitably want something different. Just like with what happened with old classic MMO's. It'll be solo centric game play's turn to cry in the corner and rage on forums within  a few years (if that).

That is all.

 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

8/16/13 11:35:30 PM#173
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

 

Now accept that and move on.


 


It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want.  They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income.  Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out.  You're still wrong.

 

Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.  Giving players what they want on an individual level despite being a failure as a whole.  At least a failure in holding players and subscriptions.   They saw WoWs success.  They reimaged the game with their own ideas or IP.  They attempted to do it better since obvious trend of ease and accessibility is what players poll for.   Players meanwhile get bored and blow through easy rehashed WoW content.  Subscriptions dry up after a strong start.  Without the odd trend of being able to subsidize the games through the minority(cash shops) most of these games would have fallen flat on their face.  

 

We have differing opinions that blindly chasing a dream of WoW means the trend is what players want.  We have differing opinions that quest hub games created as easy cash shop traps that majority of the players opinion don't matter is what most players want.  Likely the trend is the safe one and the one of having a potential WoW which the boards who fund MMO's likely push on the companies.  

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/17/13 2:23:25 PM#174
Originally posted by Vigiliance

Everyone is stuck in the here and now. No one can say what the future will bring. Will that future come in 6 months, a year, 2 years? Certainly the trends that are in place now are easy to see but that won't last forever. Things change whether they like them or not.

Eventually the instant gratification and solo centric game play elements that are a hit now will fall to the wayside and things will change. Does that mean everything is going to go back to the days of EQ and Vanilla WoW... certainly not but you'd be a fool to think that solo centric MMO's will forever keep selling. People will tire of this style and inevitably want something different. Just like with what happened with old classic MMO's. It'll be solo centric game play's turn to cry in the corner and rage on forums within  a few years (if that).

That is all.

 

It is not very helpful trying to anticipate entertainment in 2 years. Who knows? 2-3 years ago, no one can predict MOBA to be big. No one can predict WiiU is going to flop.

What is really known is the current trend today .. solo-centric, non-world gamepplay with F2P.

In a few years, i doubt i would even be playing MMOs. If this type of gameplay dies, there are always other entertainment.

  LeGrosGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 214

8/17/13 2:29:51 PM#175
Originally posted by Piechunks

I wasn't born yesterday. I realize the first MMOs were text-based and played them. I played EQ as well (didn't like it, but I wouldn't disparage another for liking it), but preferred other MMOs that came out shortly afterward.

The one trend that has disturbed me the most is that people have become a lot dumber, impatient and hostile if you were to compare a randomly selected sample to that of the "vanilla" days of WoW.

It pains me somewhat to relay anecdotal evidence as if it were gospel, but my foray into GW2 has shown me just how prevalent the problem is among modern MMO gamers:

 

1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin. 
 
Have a phone call? You had better not pick it up, or your party who is completely unwilling to wait for anything will attempt the boss if you're not back by the 30 second mark and wipe.
 
Have a slow computer? You had better not attempt to play with a party, because that marginal minute they have to wait before beginning the instance is an eternity.
 
Are you completely new to an instance? You had better not attempt it, because there is 0 willingness to type out in detail, or even communicate through VOIP what to do and how to do it.
 
2. There is no more willingness to accept personal blame, but blame is to be doled out to others.
 
Did somebody pull a mob by accident and get himself killed while trying to keep up with the group? That very person will most likely go on a tirade about the group not tending to him, but will later refuse to resurrect a fellow team member after a boss event, since he had finished and no longer had any need for the group.
 
I can't count how many times somebody has asked the group to kick another for doing the very same mistake she/he did many times before, or after the fact.
 
3. There is no desire, or ability to figure things out independently: guides must be sought after, followed to the letter and obeyed at all times.
 
It's very amusing when you see a group try and figure something out for the first time; even if you try and assist, or even manage to figure it out in due time, the remainder of the group tends to wander around like chickens with their heads cut off, simply because they do not have a guide, or are completely unwilling to try and learn new things.
 
It's quite infuriating when you see people with "suboptimal" specs get berated/excluded due to group ignorance: if something cannot be reduced to a binary variable, it is simply not considered. You are either "good", or "bad" with nothing in between, since things can never be considered in situational detail.
 
4. A lack of empathy and "antisocial" behavior
 
I know it's somewhat ironic to use antisocial when talking about an MMO, but nowadays people are so selfish and so unwilling to even spare a mere second to help out a random player who needs it, it equates to negligence to the point of malice.
 
Not to mention that people will rarely attempt to socialize with people outside of their guild, or even engage in idle chatter without some sort of game-economic impetus behind it. In fact, a lot of the things I took for granted in older games, like EQ (and now WoW) are simply defunct; if the game doesn't hold guild specific events, you can forget about ever doing them. 
 
If you want to find a group of people who are even willing to help you with something you cannot complete yourself, you will more often than not find no assistance outside of your circle, regardless of how many people are in your particular instance, or have disposable time.
 
 
I realize that this post serves as nothing more than a means of venting my frustrations, but I have to ask whoever managed to get through of all of that one question:
 
if people behave so awfully in-game and the point of playing a MMO is to interact with these people, then why even bother?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

That's why I only play P2P MMORPG's, best communities ever.   Stop playing the kiddies F2P MMO's and man/woman up to a P2P model. :)          Been a P2P player since 94 and will die a P2P player. :)

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/17/13 9:35:11 PM#176
Originally posted by marsh9799

I still remember a Hunter from Vanilla WoW.  His name was Excallibur.  He was the dumbest and worst players ever.  There was a Warrior named Pdog.  He didn't do the warrior quest for defensive stance ever.  You didn't group with them.  No one grouped with them.  I had my list of good players I liked to group with and it was expansive.  You had to form groups- it was nice to have a large list to pull from.

 

 

Wait a second... was Excallibur a dwarf hunter and pdog a nightelf warrior? Holy crap, their suckage was really that legendary.... I remember farming them on a PvP server as horde. Great times. Hilariously great.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/17/13 10:30:43 PM#177
Originally posted by LeGrosGamer

 

1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin. 
 
Have a phone call? You had better not pick it up, or your party who is completely unwilling to wait for anything will attempt the boss if you're not back by the 30 second mark and wipe.
 
Have a slow computer? You had better not attempt to play with a party, because that marginal minute they have to wait before beginning the instance is an eternity.
 
Are you completely new to an instance? You had better not attempt it, because there is 0 willingness to type out in detail, or even communicate through VOIP what to do and how to do it.
 

Of course there is no patience. We are talking about playing games here.

If my wife yells "dinner", i am out of the game. That is 100x more important than playing some online games.

If my phone rings, i am "pausing" a game to get it. However, i do not want to wait for anyone else .. cause that is wasting my time. The conflict is unresolvable ... and so sometimes solo is the best solution.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/19/13 3:05:56 PM#178


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.


If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.

BTw, Ceph and Nari, I don't read your posts. Just an FYI.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/19/13 3:14:56 PM#179
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.

 


If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.

 

Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.

 

  DrCokePepsi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/19/13 4:50:27 PM#180
Sir, i completely agree with you. I've been through the tough times with AC2 and SWG, have played Asheron's Call, Runescape and, (unfortunately) WoW. I played WoW during Cataclysm, as i got into it after my trial i developed my main up to 85, not even into raiding material realised what a dump WoW was, and up-and-left. Same happened to Runescape, although runescape has just become a complete dump. It used to be unique now it's just a failure. SWG has unfortunately closed, Asheron's Call is still strong and fun, the community still great but slimming :( and AC2 made a completely random return that i still have mixed feelings about. 
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