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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » SOE should be learning from Anet's mistakes...

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56 posts found
  Vutar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/09
Posts: 749

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -George Santayana

 
OP  8/15/13 9:36:52 AM#1

not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges.

The pillars of GW2 were the following:

-Action oriented combat

-Horizontal progression

-Removal of the Trinity

-Public Questing

-Casual gameplay

 

That is what everything in the game was built on. EQnext has 4 of those 5 confirmed. The casual gameplay is the only part that isn't yet, my guess is that will be in too.

So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.

 

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/15/13 9:39:59 AM#2
Way to make up stuff and smack the hell out of a hornets nests with this one...


  Markusrind

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 284

8/15/13 9:40:03 AM#3
Originally posted by Vutar

not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges.

The pillars of GW2 were the following:

-Action oriented combat

-Horizontal progression

-Removal of the Trinity

-Public Questing

-Casual gameplay

 

That is what everything in the game was built on. EQnext has 4 of those 5 confirmed. The casual gameplay is the only part that isn't yet, my guess is that will be in too.

So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.

 

You might want to re-check your information about the foundations of EQN. Those pillars you speak of are not the pillars for EQN. Big difference.

Basically you are scaremongering with false information and wild assumptions...

  Vutar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/09
Posts: 749

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -George Santayana

 
OP  8/15/13 9:43:47 AM#4
Originally posted by Kuppa
Way to make up stuff and smack the hell out of a hornets nests with this one...

 

Feel free to point out the made up part.

  donpopuki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 594

8/15/13 12:14:00 PM#5
The problem with GW2 is that there's no end game or any sort of crafting economy. I love the combat system, the dynamic events and the graphics. GW2 is kinda one dimensional.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11303

8/15/13 12:24:32 PM#6

you are stretching the no trinity of GW2 = EQN

 

example:

EQN -- no dedicated roles (but i'm expecting healers and tanks)

 

GW2 -- no healers

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

  Dimsum1337

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/24/12
Posts: 60

8/15/13 12:35:53 PM#7

... or take a page from Anet's marketing team.

Oh wait!

Yet another promise of genre changing mechanics and "never before seen" features and "gamers for gamers" ideology in a game that breaks with its franchise traditions. Joy! A next generation mmo created to cater to the up n coming farmville crowd. I guess if it doesnt work out, they can alway scrap it and start over... oh wait no =).

I hate to be sceptical, but the arguments have all been layed out pretty well on these forums and its clear that the mmorpg crowd will not be pleased. There will be no reliving the mmorpg glory days... ALAS! I hope against hope that I am wrong but I fear the commercialization of the genre shall proceed according to plan. 

 

My 2 c.

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

8/15/13 1:11:19 PM#8
Originally posted by Nadia

you are stretching the no trinity of GW2 = EQN

 

example:

EQN -- no dedicated roles (but i'm expecting healers and tanks)

 

GW2 -- no healers

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh 

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

Furthermore, how is the OP stretching the "No Trinity" thing with GW2? The WHOLE THING around GW2 was that it was super-hipster by claiming to do away with Trinity completely. They're the MMO that started that nonsense. So how is the OP stretching anything here??????

 

Also, the OP is 100% correct, read the financial reports for NCSoft. Lineage ONE is kicking GW2's ass in sales, and profit. 

 

-Action oriented combat <==Yup

-Horizontal progression <==Yup (Gear based, NOT level based, same thing though)

-Removal of the Trinity <==Yup

-Public Questing <==??? Maybe, from what they've hinted at yes....but not 100% confirmed.

-Casual gameplay <==Not confirmed, but the way they're going with the graphics and combat system most likely.

 

So the OP was correct about 3 "Pillars", one being a "Guestimation", and the 5th he said isn't confirmed....but most likely is due to how the game is being built for Mainstream audiences.

 

How is the OP incorrect? He stated FACTS you can look up easily.

 

{{{Look here}}}

 

Also, note that NCSofts OVERALL profits are up, but not because of GW2 whom has gone down since Q1. Lineage looks to be holding NCsoft up. Funny that the MMO type they tried to run away from is the one keeping them afloat. GoodGuy Lineage 1 not leaving NCSoft behind when they make a mistake.

 

Cheers

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/15/13 1:20:45 PM#9
Originally posted by Vutar

not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges.

The pillars of GW2 were the following:

-Action oriented combat

-Horizontal progression

-Removal of the Trinity

-Public Questing

-Casual gameplay

 

That is what everything in the game was built on. EQnext has 4 of those 5 confirmed. The casual gameplay is the only part that isn't yet, my guess is that will be in too.

So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.

 

You think 'removal of the trinity' was one of their original goals? No no.  It is so much larger than that.  You fail to understand.

Also, there is vertical progression, for each class.  Just not enough to have you out level the world and make content trivial.  Now, the world will remain interesting.  Instead of farming one out of seven high level locations every night since everything else is grey.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11303

8/15/13 1:25:46 PM#10
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

there are no direct heals in GW2 - regardless of how you spec

 

I'm expecting to see a cleric w direct heals in EQN (but i have no proof of this)

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

8/15/13 1:34:10 PM#11
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

there are no direct heals in GW2 - regardless of how you spec

 

I'm expecting to see a cleric w direct heals in EQN (but i have no proof of this)

Since they've essentially copied everything from GW2 I don't expect to see a direct heal mechanic. I expect to see an area-targeted heal system like with GW2 (or one where you're AOEing around yourself with heals).

 

Still, a healer is a healer regardless if you can single-target or not. You're still speccing to heal people. Furthermore, having single-target healing doesn't mean they've not done away with Trinity. Watch the reveal again. EQ:N's lead developer LITERALLY said, word for word, they're doing away with the Trinity (same thing GW2's lead developer said, and built the game around).

 

So saying EQ:N == GW2 isn't a far stretch at all.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4660

8/15/13 1:35:34 PM#12
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia
**snip for length**

Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh Uh 

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

Furthermore, how is the OP stretching the "No Trinity" thing with GW2? The WHOLE THING around GW2 was that it was super-hipster by claiming to do away with Trinity completely. They're the MMO that started that nonsense. So how is the OP stretching anything here??????

Also, the OP is 100% correct, read the financial reports for NCSoft. Lineage ONE is kicking GW2's ass in sales, and profit. 

-Action oriented combat <==Yup

-Horizontal progression <==Yup (Gear based, NOT level based, same thing though)

-Removal of the Trinity <==Yup

-Public Questing <==??? Maybe, from what they've hinted at yes....but not 100% confirmed.

-Casual gameplay <==Not confirmed, but the way they're going with the graphics and combat system most likely.

So the OP was correct about 3 "Pillars", one being a "Guestimation", and the 5th he said isn't confirmed....but most likely is due to how the game is being built for Mainstream audiences.

How is the OP incorrect? He stated FACTS you can look up easily.

{{{Look here}}}

Also, note that NCSofts OVERALL profits are up, but not because of GW2 whom has gone down since Q1. Lineage looks to be holding NCsoft up. Funny that the MMO type they tried to run away from is the one keeping them afloat. GoodGuy Lineage 1 not leaving NCSoft behind when they make a mistake.

Cheers

Kinda in the same way you are pulling stuff out of your butt.

Yes, you can heal in GW2, but no there are no dedicated healing or tanking (which negates it being a trinity). Spamming the crappy heal orb on staff isn't even a good method of healing. The best way guardians heal others is via symbols & regen, or shouts (for self-healing). Very, very much different than a traditional healer role (which Elementalist, Engineer, and Necro do a much better job with anyway).

2) Referring to the latest financial report, showing sales being down, in a game that doesn't rely on box sales, is laughable. Furthermore, it doesn't reflect the game's population. Maps are still getting Qued, there are still overflow maps in certain parts of the game, and the game's been out for almost a full year now.

Furthermore, that same Financial report states that GW2 and Lineage are the 2 main sources of revenue for NCSoft atm. It does not say that GW2 is failing, or that it is costing NCSoft money. Quite the opposite.

- It might be a good idea to read all the info before you make snap judgements, instead of the other way around. It's one thing to not like the game. It's another to continuously try and make stuff up to make the game look bad.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4660

8/15/13 1:38:22 PM#13
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

there are no direct heals in GW2 - regardless of how you spec

I'm expecting to see a cleric w direct heals in EQN (but i have no proof of this)

Since they've essentially copied everything from GW2 I don't expect to see a direct heal mechanic. I expect to see an area-targeted heal system like with GW2 (or one where you're AOEing around yourself with heals).

Still, a healer is a healer regardless if you can single-target or not. You're still speccing to heal people. Furthermore, having single-target healing doesn't mean they've not done away with Trinity. Watch the reveal again. EQ:N's lead developer LITERALLY said, word for word, they're doing away with the Trinity (same thing GW2's lead developer said, and built the game around).

So saying EQ:N == GW2 isn't a far stretch at all.

We don't know nearly enough about the game to say "they essentially copied everything from GW2". I'm not gunna deny that GW2 has influenced the latest bread of MMOs across the board, but if anything it's shown that it's 'okay' to try new things.

There's already a few key features that set EQN apart from GW2.

You may wanna hold off on shouting doom, until you actually have enough of a game to make an accurate assessment.

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/15/13 1:40:35 PM#14
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

there are no direct heals in GW2 - regardless of how you spec

 

I'm expecting to see a cleric w direct heals in EQN (but i have no proof of this)

Since they've essentially copied everything from GW2 I don't expect to see a direct heal mechanic. I expect to see an area-targeted heal system like with GW2 (or one where you're AOEing around yourself with heals).

 

Still, a healer is a healer regardless if you can single-target or not. You're still speccing to heal people. Furthermore, having single-target healing doesn't mean they've not done away with Trinity. Watch the reveal again. EQ:N's lead developer LITERALLY said, word for word, they're doing away with the Trinity (same thing GW2's lead developer said, and built the game around).

 

So saying EQ:N == GW2 isn't a far stretch at all.

In reference to the red text, please explain to me why this thread has Dave Georgeson agreeing that there are solid roles w/ combat mechanics similar to MOBA.  Dave went on to say that the system is not MOBA, but will implement a new unique system that will compliment EQNext as a whole.

http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1kd1pe/class_roles_think_lol_vs_ai_bots/

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/15/13 1:40:36 PM#15
Originally posted by Vutar
Originally posted by Kuppa
Way to make up stuff and smack the hell out of a hornets nests with this one...

 

Feel free to point out the made up part.

GW2 Servers aren't empty and players aren't calling out for mergers. This has been extensively talked about. Those aren't the pillars for EQN.


  donpopuki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 594

8/15/13 1:41:56 PM#16
-Action oriented combat: why is this bad? You can't have challenging action combat? Not all action combat is created equal.

-Horizontal progression: no levels but they have "tiers" so we don't know what that is.

-Removal of the Trinity: they claim the emergent ai requires more complex group machics that go beyond the simple trinity.

-Public Questing: why is this bad?

-Casual gameplay: again why is this bad? I can't play for 8 hrs everyday and most people can't as well. They should however put some hardcore elements in addition to casual play styles. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both can exist in the same game. Also not enough info concerning this subject.

  InsaneDalek

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 123

EXTERMINATE!

8/15/13 1:43:23 PM#17
Originally posted by Dimsum1337

... or take a page from Anet's marketing team.

Oh wait!

Yet another promise of genre changing mechanics and "never before seen" features and "gamers for gamers" ideology in a game that breaks with its franchise traditions. Joy! A next generation mmo created to cater to the up n coming farmville crowd. I guess if it doesnt work out, they can alway scrap it and start over... oh wait no =).

I hate to be sceptical, but the arguments have all been layed out pretty well on these forums and its clear that the mmorpg crowd will not be pleased. There will be no reliving the mmorpg glory days... ALAS! I hope against hope that I am wrong but I fear the commercialization of the genre shall proceed according to plan. 

 

My 2 c.

  1. You mean the glory days of forced grouping?
  2. The glory days of ridiculously draconian death penalties, including the possibility of de-leveling?
  3. The glory days of grinding mobs for hours & hours on end due to the lack of quest content?
  4. The glory days of camping a spot for days at a time in order to kill that one specific monster needed to complete one of the few available quests?
  5. The glory days of spending an entire evening fighting your way down to the bottom of a dungeon, only to have the boss 'tagged' by another group?
  6. The glory days of mobs aggroing from half a zone away?
  7. The glory days of people being able to 'train' mobs on others to grief them? (Okay I admit this could be fun sometimes).

If you consider all that part of the 'glory days', then I for one am glad they're gone. The genre has thankfully moved beyond the simplistic, unintuitive gameplay of yesteryear, for the most part. Progress can be made both as a group, and as an individual, and doesn't require a time investment equal to that of a full-time job.

Sorry, but the genre has moved forward (for the most part). You can either move forward with it, or go play one of the many older games still running today (officially or non).

It's a sad day indeed when a family is too afraid of reprisals to publicly thank somebody for saving their lives.

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

8/15/13 1:44:19 PM#18
Originally posted by wizardanim
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Nadia

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html

Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer?

Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2

Guardian staff spec == HEALER. Everything about Guardian Staff == screams healer. So YES, GW2 has a healer class/weapon setup. Don't tell me they don't, I was able to gear one out for PvP battlegrounds.

there are no direct heals in GW2 - regardless of how you spec

 

I'm expecting to see a cleric w direct heals in EQN (but i have no proof of this)

Since they've essentially copied everything from GW2 I don't expect to see a direct heal mechanic. I expect to see an area-targeted heal system like with GW2 (or one where you're AOEing around yourself with heals).

 

Still, a healer is a healer regardless if you can single-target or not. You're still speccing to heal people. Furthermore, having single-target healing doesn't mean they've not done away with Trinity. Watch the reveal again. EQ:N's lead developer LITERALLY said, word for word, they're doing away with the Trinity (same thing GW2's lead developer said, and built the game around).

 

So saying EQ:N == GW2 isn't a far stretch at all.

In reference to the red text, please explain to me why this thread has Dave Georgeson agreeing that there are solid roles w/ combat mechanics similar to MOBA.  Dave went on to say that the system is not MOBA, but will implement a new unique system that will compliment EQNext as a whole.

http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1kd1pe/class_roles_think_lol_vs_ai_bots/

Because that's all bullcrap. What they showed at the EQ:N reveal was GW2 through and through. 

 

4 slots for skills directly associated with your current weapons equipped (GW2)

4 slots for your class specific skill choices (GW2)

Action based combat with telegraphs on the ground with semi-dodge mechanics (watch the video, a dev double-taps to dodge with his kerran near the end). (GW2)

 

It doesn't matter how they spread things out for choices, ala: Moba class designs (which don't fit in an MMO, by the by). Everything is setup like GW2, so how isn't it a copy of GW2 as far as combat and skills are concerned???

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6586

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

8/15/13 1:44:20 PM#19

Soe was not going to learn,they were looking for ways to copy the same formula of making a cheaper game and securing profits immediately with just the sales.Imagine they come up with an exact same type game that can run for pennies,break a profit with sales,then attach a cash shop onto that.it is cha ching money ,money,that is what SOE is looking for,that is their main goal in the design,how to make as much profit as possible.

Sqaure Enix for example ,does not bank on instant profit,they spend a lot of time and money ,they don't make games for instant profit.They try to secure a fanbase ,playerbase that will keep coming back,that is how they eventually turn a profit.In this day and age ALL developers have been failing the player base,very quickly players begin to leave and the game basically dies out,that is a TERRIBLE formula to follow.

Point is SOE should not be looking at GW2 at all,but their design is one that turns an instant profit and a game that runs on pennies,so it is not like SOE is not interested in dollar signs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

8/15/13 1:51:41 PM#20
Originally posted by donpopuki
-Action oriented combat: why is this bad? You can't have challenging action combat? Not all action combat is created equal.

-Horizontal progression: no levels but they have "tiers" so we don't know what that is.

-Removal of the Trinity: they claim the emergent ai requires more complex group machics that go beyond the simple trinity.

-Public Questing: why is this bad?

-Casual gameplay: again why is this bad? I can't play for 8 hrs everyday and most people can't as well. They should however put some hardcore elements in addition to casual play styles. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both can exist in the same game. Also not enough info concerning this subject.

 

-Action Combat: because real action combat doesn't have psuedo-auto targeting mechanisms built behind them. In other words you're not actually swinging that sword. When you swing the game checks to see if anything is in range of your weapon's attack range and hits them if they're in a specific arc. This is called "Fake Action Combat". It's a way to fake action combat, but still having the original behind the scenes systems of a normal MMO. It's also REALLY cheesy and cheap feeling. You also don't get the benefits of a REAL action combat system (something Black Desert is doing). FYI: Real action combat games are Darkfall and Mortal Online, do you like those games? I don't.....

-Horizontal Progression: it isn't actually progression, but is a carrot-on-a-stick to keep you playing. You actually have nothing to look forward to except more damage/hp/armor from better gear (since horizontal progression is gear based in EQ:N). This excels in super-casual games where you can log in for an hour, do a bunch of quests for quick progression gains, and then log out for the day. Boring....

-Removal of Trinity: As a Software Engineer I can tell you that their "Emergent AI" is bollox, simple and to the point. They do NOT have people from MIT working for them in an Advanced AI workshop, which is what this would require, and even MIT hasn't made this advanced of an AI that can be used on thousands of mobs at once per server. It just isn't going to happen. This is just a PR-spin being used to avoid Trinity, but the reality is that people LIKE HAVING ROLES. Trinity isn't a bad thing, so why do you want to spit on it so badly?

-Public Questing: Everything becomes a zerg, no challenge, no thought, just spam spam spam attack keys, spam rezes, zerg zerg zerg. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING.

-Casual Gameplay: is always bad in any serious tone. You cannot have quality meaningful gameplay in a Casual oriented product. The cornerstone of Casual Gameplay are games on the iPad. Go play some of those and let me know how EQ:N will work out with those kinds of systems in place.

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