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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you miss corpse runs?

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  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

8/14/13 2:17:47 AM#141
Originally posted by jesad

You know, I'm on my soapbox with Axehilt in favor of corpse runs.

 

*Ahem* Axehilt is against.

 

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 730

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

8/14/13 2:25:29 AM#142
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by jesad

You know, I'm on my soapbox with Axehilt in favor of corpse runs.

 

*Ahem* Axehilt is against.

 

Yeah, I meant I was in favor against him.  Bad syntax I guess.

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

8/14/13 2:32:17 AM#143
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by WW4BW

  I will admit I was baiting you to respond by being deliberatly simplistic and perhaps extreme when I asked how you saw things.

 

Are you also attempting to bait a response by saying everything "should be considered to be PVP"?  Because there are more players interested solely in PVE than there are MMO PVPers.  Fights are puzzles to be solved -- they don't need to reflect "real" (PVP-like) combat situations (in fact that imposes an undesirable limitation to the types of bosses which can exist.)

 

  Oops overlooked this in my last reply.

  What I mean by everything is PvP or should be, is simply that MMOs should be about interacting with other players at some level. Doing something with them or to them. Or simply having them be something to move around because they are in your way. 

  The way I see modern MMOs playing out, is that they are full of tools to avoid player interaction and when you actually play with others it is in a way where they could just as easily be replaced by allied npcs following simple rules.

 And I think I even said it should be considered PvP or PwithP, even in PvE-only MMOs. 

  Because if there is no meaningful player to player interaction, then I think  the developement cost would have been put to better used making a true single player game.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3362

8/14/13 2:36:44 AM#144


Originally posted by Damon
I miss consequences with impact in contemporary gaming. It's not necessarily the corpse run that I miss, but what it represents. It's the same reason I disdain queuing for game content (ie: dungeons) with random strangers. There should be a need to communicate with others, and there should be danger in the game. What lies over the next dune should not be certain. It could be empty sand, a fight you could win, or your demise. Verant had this in mind with EverQuest, but that was long ago.

I agree with this.

I didn't necessarily like running back naked to claim my gear, or begging for a rez to regain my level, but having a consequence for death certainly made me care more about my character and made the overall experience of the game more fun.

I wouldn't say necessarily to bring back corpse runs, but I think character death should have a meaningful consequence.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

8/14/13 3:17:13 AM#145
Originally posted by jesad

Corpse runs made people who didn't have enough time to get into something that might involve a corpse run not get involved with certain things.

A very important problem is raised here.

So they added that new dungeon yesterday in a patch. I only have one hour to play today. What will I do?

- Game with risk of corpse run and xp/level/item loss:

Well, i'm not even going to log in. If I get killed, or just even get disconnected or a lag spike because of an Internet problem, I may lose all my stuff and/or a level because I won't have the time to do a corpse run.

- Game with no risk of xp/level/item loss:

I'm going to play for one hour, visit a bit of that new dungeon and have fun exploring. If I die, well, shit happens, I will lose some gold because of the repairs but at least I won't be punished for only having one hour to play today.

 

Too harsh death penalties discourage people from playing the game and/or from taking any risk. Too harsh death penalties are also incompatible with the very nature of the Internet, where technical problems can make you lose way too much even though it's not your fault at all.

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  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

8/14/13 3:39:14 AM#146
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by jesad

Corpse runs made people who didn't have enough time to get into something that might involve a corpse run not get involved with certain things.

A very important problem is raised here.

So they added that new dungeon yesterday in a patch. I only have one hour to play today. What will I do?

- Game with risk of corpse run and xp/level/item loss:

Well, i'm not even going to log in. If I get killed, or just even get disconnected or a lag spike because of an Internet problem, I may lose all my stuff and/or a level because I won't have the time to do a corpse run.

- Game with no risk of xp/level/item loss:

I'm going to play for one hour, visit a bit of that new dungeon and have fun exploring. If I die, well, shit happens, I will lose some gold because of the repairs but at least I won't be punished for only having one hour to play today.

 

Too harsh death penalties discourage people from playing the game and/or from taking any risk. Too harsh death penalties are also incompatible with the very nature of the Internet, where technical problems can make you lose way too much even though it's not your fault at all.

  How long your corpse lasts is a balance issue. And perhaps a performance and anti clutter issue.

  I mean in EQ it used to be that you had a week to get your stuff back.. So unless you died in the last hour before going on a vacation, you would have plenty of time to get it back.

  Of course if you wanted to get some of the XP back too you had to get a rez within 3 hours of play time.

  Those durations could be set to anything from minutes to infinity.. 

  But the point would be, you could go and get it the corpse and rezz the next day or 5 days later if that was when you had time to play again.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3362

8/14/13 3:40:50 AM#147


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Too harsh death penalties discourage people from playing the game and/or from taking any risk. Too harsh death penalties are also incompatible with the very nature of the Internet, where technical problems can make you lose way too much even though it's not your fault at all.

That is a good point. I ultimately stopped playing Eve because people would lagbomb the jump gates. I lost a lot of ships and implants that way, none of it was refunded - a petition comes back "Sorry to hear about your loss but that's the game"

So ok - if a crappy internet connection (or crappy game engine) limits my ability to play fairly, I don't care to play. It wasn't that I didn't agree with Eve's death penalty - I perfectly understood it. But I mistakenly assumed it was to be player versus player, not player versus technical problem. So I eliminated the technical problem by eliminating the game from my system.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1753

8/14/13 4:34:57 AM#148
To me to die is just ANNOYANCE. Nothing more nothing less. I will do what ever I can to not die or to bring with me as many as possible ... but after i really HATE spending my time looking for corpse instead of playing.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

8/14/13 12:31:05 PM#149
Originally posted by jesad

And so I understand why they took them out of the game.  Still, they did have their place, as I am discussing from my soapbox.

No they don't. Not according to devs, and many players. Otherwise, why is corpse run (or at least the EQ harsh brand of corpse run) taken out?

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2849

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

8/14/13 12:33:34 PM#150

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

 

The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

8/14/13 12:38:51 PM#151
Originally posted by Chuckanar
 

Sweet self portrait dude Rock on!

 I was just trying to give you a  glimpse of real men who enjoy death penalties. And i can assure you that isn't me but i won't be surprised if that is you. 

One has to be really insecure about their masculinity if they they need to attach it to harsh death penalty. 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

8/14/13 1:00:51 PM#152
Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

 The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/14/13 1:57:23 PM#153
Originally posted by jesad

You know, your opener summed up the entire reason corpse runs were great.  Because, in fact, without a more substantial penalty for death than just a reset, killing a mob boss is indeed just a zerg.

Tell me if I am being truthful here or lying.

In many games today people don't even wait for a rez anymore, they just click to respawn or even worse, in some games, pop right back up on the spot.  This almost nullifies the reason for having a resurrecting class in the group for anything other than to facilitate more forward momentum through heals.  This, in turn, makes players far less dependent on each other to do the particular tasks that each of them were built to do as there is no longer a reason to protect one another and THIS nullifies the need for almost any social interaction.

All you really need to do is get into a group, zerg your way through the content, and leave once you've accomplished whatever task you came to accomplish.

I see this happening all the time now, and it really takes a LOT away from the idea that these are supposed to be actual characters living in an actual world.  Setting up alternatives like timed events and other things like you have stated, only serves then to remove the player yet another step away from being able to enjoy the purpose that many people enter these games to fulfill, which is to play make believe.

Now we just have another game like any other game.  May as well play on your console, because you have about as much chance or opportunity of feeling like a character in a 3d shooter or in a fighting game is representative of you (actually more at that point) than you do in a game where you are nothing but extra dps or heals.

Actual death penalties however, change all of that.  If for no other reason than they prevent forward momentum until the group either reconfigures or addresses the death.  Sure, in a world where people are going to be impatient, are working with limited time, or are just plain not smart enough to know when to stop spamming their biggest damage spell, this in inconvenient.  But I, for one, believe that people can be taught to be better at these things, and that in the learning and overcoming of such shortcomings there are greater rewards such as a sense of accomplishment, a sense of improvement, a sense of community etc.... all the things that people come here and complain that they don't feel anymore.

Right now the devs are just trying to make it so that everyone, young or old, smart or dumb, impatient or patient can play.  I don't hate on that because I know that they do this in order to make as much money as possible.  But just like your argument that they only had corpse runs in order to make money, the same can be said for not having them as well.

The devs are going to get paid no matter what they do.  They don't do things that don't get them paid.  That's why they are devs.  Taking corpse runs, or other heavier death penalties out of the game however, shortchanges YOU, the player.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, I could go on in about 5 different ways.

A reset is (wait for it) a reset.  Which means (wait for it) the boss is reset.  Which means the boss can't be zerged.  So by definition what I'm describing is unzergable.  (And while I don't think you're lying, it makes me wonder if you've played a MMORPG in the last decade that you'd even consider the possibility of zergable bosses.)

As for waiting for rezzes, resurrection is busywork.  It's not deep gameplay.  It doesn't add significantly to immersion.  In PVE if your entire party/raid automatically rezzed for free in the boss' chamber (or slightly prior to it, with a few trash mobs respawning) then that wouldn't impact the challenge of MMORPGs at all but would dramatically improve the pacing of death (which even in the best MMORPGs nowadays is still clunky.)

The fact that you'd imply rezzing classes are relied upon to rez and not to perform their primary role (healing, etc) also makes me wonder if you've played an MMORPG in the past decade.  The complete removal of rez spells (apart from battle rezzing, naturally) would have no effect on the desire to take these players into the dungeon.

In MMORPGs you either play skillfully enough to beat the challenge, or you wipe.  There is no "zerging through content", because until you exhibit enough skill you're going to keep wiping.  And while improved difficulty options are something more MMORPGs need (to ensure the challenge is actually challenging) increasing the death penalties wouldn't really make things any better (you'd either have easy content which is still too easy and zergable, or you'd have challenging content which is a complete hassle to engage with because some random asshat can screw up and waste you a lot of time, money, XP, or whatever.)

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1626

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

8/14/13 2:06:19 PM#154
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

 The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

 

Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

 

No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

 

There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

8/14/13 2:10:05 PM#155
Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

The thing is it doesn't make people play less stupidly.  It makes people less risk inclined.  Instead of taking on a risky challenge to see if I could kill a boss or a tough mob, I would pass it by because the risk of xp loss wasn't worth the potential for that good drop.  So you wait for a group of people to fight those mobs so it will be safe and easy.  But they don't want to take risks either.  They don't want to take on the larger riskier group. They want to keep farming solid safe xp and drops so they can make good progress.

Heavy death penalties just encourage safe play.  That's how grouping first started, people didn't want to lose 3 weeks worth of progress so they got together with friends so it would be easier and safer.

You may do suicidal stuff on purpose, but I doubt you do that when you have a goal to accomplish.  If you need or want a certain drop or to receive a certain reward then you won't do stupid stuff unless you just want to waste your time.  Trying to get the reward will motivate you to play smart and die less.  Trying to do that in a timely matter even more so.  Having a stiff death penalty just means you will wait to do that until its safe (more people to zerg the mob, over-leveling content, etc).

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1626

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

8/14/13 2:14:26 PM#156
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

The thing is it doesn't make people play less stupidly.  It makes people less risk inclined.  Instead of taking on a risky challenge to see if I could kill a boss or a tough mob, I would pass it by because the risk of xp loss wasn't worth the potential for that good drop.  So you wait for a group of people to fight those mobs so it will be safe and easy.  But they don't want to take risks either.  They don't want to take on the larger riskier group. They want to keep farming solid safe xp and drops so they can make good progress.

Heavy death penalties just encourage safe play.  That's how grouping first started, people didn't want to lose 3 weeks worth of progress so they got together with friends so it would be easier and safer.

You may do suicidal stuff on purpose, but I doubt you do that when you have a goal to accomplish.  If you need or want a certain drop or to receive a certain reward then you won't do stupid stuff unless you just want to waste your time.  Trying to get the reward will motivate you to play smart and die less.  Trying to do that in a timely matter even more so.  Having a stiff death penalty just means you will wait to do that until its safe (more people to zerg the mob, over-leveling content, etc).

Torv, the harsh penalty did more than just stuff involving playing stupidly or being risk adverse, it also amped up the immersion, especially when combined with first person view.  I remember being truly spooked in some of the EQ and DAOC dungeons, especially the former.  And where I did not see some part of a dungeon or zone from being risk adverse, my imagination went wild and "filled in the gaps", sometimes putting more there than there actually was.

In the Field of Bone zone, off the coast, was a high level area.  Someone told me there were these "gorilla things" that hit really hard and he did not know what level they were.  Well, I never really went to that place, and I sure gave it a wide berth when I traveled through that zone, but it always made me imagine what might be there.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

8/14/13 2:21:24 PM#157
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

 The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

 

Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

 

No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

 

There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

I disagree. I think tactics is driven by the challenge, not the level of risks.

Take D3 (again) as an example. In low MP, you just faceroll and DPS. Any build, and any tactics will work. At high MP, you need to be careful and optimize. When i play archon in low MP, i just stand there and DPS. When i am in high MP, i pay attention, use terrain to my advantage (for example, standing in corner to counter vortex), and use hit-and-run tactics.

The tactics is caused by the challenge, not risk. The risk is the same.

In hard core, everything changes ... people becomes very risk averse, even in non-challenging situations.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/14/13 2:51:51 PM#158
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

 

No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

 

There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

Your spectrum is wrong though.  It implies the wrong correlation.

The right correlation is "skill used correlates to skill required"

  • Players aren't going to use lots of forethought and tactics in a heavy-risk, low-challenge situation, because little strategy is required.
  • Players can't zerg in a no-risk, high-challenge situation, because they will always fail until they employ strategy.

So the challenge spectrum is vastly more important:

No Challenge          Some Challenge             Moderate Challenge       Heavy Challenge              Extreme Challenge

<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

Boredom                    Basic Tactics               Tactics and Strategy       Lots of Tactics                 Frustration

 

  Heretique

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/02/07
Posts: 965

Most of my posts get deleted.

8/14/13 2:55:26 PM#159

I don't.

 

Because games haven't done anything interesting when it comes to "the afterlife". Just another time waster.

Originally posted by salsa41
are you have problem ?

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

8/14/13 3:39:52 PM#160
Originally posted by Heretique

I don't.

 

Because games haven't done anything interesting when it comes to "the afterlife". Just another time waster.

This one truly Indie open source mmo called Planeshift sort of tried something interesting to "the afterlife".  When you die in that game you are transported to an area that is "the underworld".  You must find your way out of the maze and back to the surface.  It's sort of like corpse-run lite.

Although their implementation (at least at the time I saw it several years ago) was rudimentary and lost its charm quickly I always appreciated the nod to the idea that there should be more to death than just respawn or rez, even with corpse runs or xp/item loss.

Imagine a more expansive death penalty system with options.

1. You could respawn like normal with a penalty to items, resources, and/or xp.  This would be the quick way out if you just wanted to get back into the action.

2. A player could rez you with a smaller penatly to the above.

3. A player could revive in the underworld.  They would have to regain their gear, face challenges (both combat and otherwise), possibly adventure, and do quests in order to make it back to the prime material plane.  At any point a player could offer to rez their corpse on the surface or the player could just choose to respawn with the penalty.

In any event the player wouldn't lose their gear although there could be a repair cost or durability hit if the game system offered such a mechanic.

I like the idea because it expands the idea of defeat, offers options, and has something more to it than the very shallow respawn mechanic.  There could be a whole world of adventure in the underworld itself.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

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