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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Graphics: The Least of EQ: Next's Problems

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112 posts found
  hayes303

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/04
Posts: 365

8/13/13 6:53:58 PM#21

The title and tone of this seems a little draconian based on whats known to date. There is a lot of time to go until release, and I would imagine there are many things that will alter the perceptions we currently have of how the various mechanics will mesh.

SOE has been working on this for a while, I'm sure they have noted a lot of these concerns themselves. If not, thats what a real beta is for. 

  Strayfe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/30/07
Posts: 184

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
"Nobody provokes me with impunity."

 
OP  8/13/13 6:56:39 PM#22
Originally posted by kyssari

I find your analogy of doctors and lawyers being more loyal and better community members so to speak because of the hard work and dedication they put into getting there kind of ironic. In pretty much every f2p game out there the people who don't spend a dime have to put far more work and time into getting to max lvl and advancing their character than any player who dishes out the cash for all the perks to make it easier, yet the F2P player is the worthless bottom feeder? While your entitled to your opinions of course you don't need to come off sounding like the Hitler of online gaming by declaring anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to a game is a worthless bottomfeeder that ruins every game they touch. Theres just as many bad people who subscribe and dish out the cash as there are those who don't spend a dime. I've also played numerous games that are f2p with plenty of people who play them without spending a dime and said games have a far better community than a lot of sub games. I'll take the Vanguard community over the WoW community any day. Regardless of the games business model every game will have its bad apples, the simple fact of wether they spend the money or not doesn't mean they are any better or worse a member of the community. More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

 

I've been laid up for over 7 years with a damaged spine, unable to get out hardly let alone work, surviving off of limited assistance, only really able to interact with people online but regardless of that I am apparently a worthless bottom feeder because I can't afford to dish out the cash on a regular basis. Thanks for clearing that up OP I appreciate it.

You misunderstood my post.  Doctors and lawyers aren't inherently better members of the community.  They are more loyal to their professions, because of the time and effort and money for school they have spent to get where they are.  They are less likely to change careers.  Likewise, a gaming experience that requires time, effort and money is more likely to retain customers long term, because they have more invested in it.

A free to play game is like a McDonalds.  There are more people working at McDonalds than there are lawyers and doctors in the world.  But the turnover is extremely high, the quality of people working at a fast food place is generally lower because the job is easier and has far less requirements.  And employees at a McDonalds aren't likely to work there over the long term.  Why is this difficult to understand?  This isn't a personal attack.  It's a simple fact.

  kyssari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 159

"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.

8/13/13 6:57:51 PM#23
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Strayfe

 

You're combining four things, F2P, action/twitch combat, console gameplay and destructible environments.  Think about that for a second.  You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed?  This is like taking a prison camp on a field trip to a Columbian drug cartel, or a group of sex offenders to a whorehouse.

You are taking the bottom feeders of the MMORPG community, the lowest common denominators, and giving them an environment where they have carte blanche to devastate any efforts at forming an actual community.  Minecraft succeeds in part BECAUSE it is a contained experience.  When you allow such things to promulgate over a massive environment, involving many servers, you lose the ability to effectively police the demonstrated, natural instinct of the F2P/Console/Twitch playerbase to turn everything they touch into a free for all.

 

Pardon me....but aren't all three of those pure speculation at this point - I'm not saying it isn't a good guess, but isn't it a guess?

Second.....aren't 99% of all mmo's f2p in some way now? I mean....so you respect WoW players, EVE players and....Secret World? Are there any others?

Well - good luck in your endeavors to say that 1% of the gaming community deserves 99% of the catering by developers to be paid for by the bottom feeders....

 

 

Even The Secret World is B2P now like GW2 and such. Only other sub game I can think of off the top of my head these days is FFXIV ARR.

  CyclopsSlayer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/31/04
Posts: 532

8/13/13 7:00:27 PM#24
@OP, I agree 100%. These were among my first thoughts when I watched the EQN presentation. That and surrounding some new settlement with land claims to seal others in/out or undermining buildings and walls so that they fall into the fires below. Much as I did in Populous lo these many years ago.
  bingbongbros

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/10
Posts: 586

8/13/13 7:03:11 PM#25
Originally posted by Strayfe 
Bleep bloop.

 

Now just imagine if SOE put something in EQN to capture the MOBA community!!! I think it would actually trigger the apocalypse.

Playing: Smite
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO
Waiting On: Nothing really, though Black Desert looks pretty amazing so far.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/13/13 7:03:59 PM#26

When they announced the game I noticed that they kept on harping on a robust reporting system. I assumed this was meant to keep people from making structures that look like giant dicks, but now that you bring this up, there is a great deal of potential for all kinds of griefing and dumbfuckery.

Free accounts made by purposeful malefactors looking to simply frustrate others for fun. As a PvP game enthusiast, I harbor no illusions about the close genetic relationship between PvP gamers and Career Griefers. EQN has the potential to change the landscape, and that landscape could quickly become a post-apocalyptic zone of virtual assholes unless Sony is vigilant.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  donpopuki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 602

8/13/13 7:04:41 PM#27

You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed? 

 I played FFXI for almost five years.

 

  kyssari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 159

"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.

8/13/13 7:04:58 PM#28
Originally posted by Strayfe
Originally posted by kyssari

I find your analogy of doctors and lawyers being more loyal and better community members so to speak because of the hard work and dedication they put into getting there kind of ironic. In pretty much every f2p game out there the people who don't spend a dime have to put far more work and time into getting to max lvl and advancing their character than any player who dishes out the cash for all the perks to make it easier, yet the F2P player is the worthless bottom feeder? While your entitled to your opinions of course you don't need to come off sounding like the Hitler of online gaming by declaring anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to a game is a worthless bottomfeeder that ruins every game they touch. Theres just as many bad people who subscribe and dish out the cash as there are those who don't spend a dime. I've also played numerous games that are f2p with plenty of people who play them without spending a dime and said games have a far better community than a lot of sub games. I'll take the Vanguard community over the WoW community any day. Regardless of the games business model every game will have its bad apples, the simple fact of wether they spend the money or not doesn't mean they are any better or worse a member of the community. More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

 

I've been laid up for over 7 years with a damaged spine, unable to get out hardly let alone work, surviving off of limited assistance, only really able to interact with people online but regardless of that I am apparently a worthless bottom feeder because I can't afford to dish out the cash on a regular basis. Thanks for clearing that up OP I appreciate it.

You misunderstood my post.  Doctors and lawyers aren't inherently better members of the community.  They are more loyal to their professions, because of the time and effort and money for school they have spent to get where they are.  They are less likely to change careers.  Likewise, a gaming experience that requires time, effort and money is more likely to retain customers long term, because they have more invested in it.

A free to play game is like a McDonalds.  There are more people working at McDonalds than there are lawyers and doctors in the world.  But the turnover is extremely high, the quality of people working at a fast food place is generally lower because the job is easier and has far less requirements.  And employees at a McDonalds aren't likely to work there over the long term.  Why is this difficult to understand?  This isn't a personal attack.  It's a simple fact.

I apologize for even posting my initial response and will simply stop here by no longer responding to your blatant bigotry, best of luck wherever your financial superiority may take you.

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

8/13/13 7:05:28 PM#29
Exactly, I can only hope that people like the original poster never play this game.

The masses have spoken, and it seems that the people that dislike the game are in the minority.

What really concerns me is why the minority even cares enough to make long posts repeatedly on the same topics.
Do you think you can change people's opinions?
No, you just come out of the closet as a, well you know what.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  cichy1012

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/04
Posts: 270

8/13/13 7:09:44 PM#30
Originally posted by killahh
Exactly, I can only hope that people like the original poster never play this game.

The masses have spoken, and it seems that the people that dislike the game are in the minority.

What really concerns me is why the minority even cares enough to make long posts repeatedly on the same topics.
Do you think you can change people's opinions?
No, you just come out of the closet as a, well you know what.

 

HEE HA HA LOL!!

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/13/13 7:14:10 PM#31
Originally posted by Strayfe
Originally posted by wizardanim

Your use of the word "will" makes me believe you've played the game, or have information that the rest of us don't.  Can you share how these systems will work please so I can see your point?

In my opinion, people have become lazy over the years, with dumb'd down mechanics like you said.  Throwing something at them that will make them think might be a good thing :)

<snip>

<reorder>

Ergo, in the modern MMO, The AI "will" be exploited, and SOE will need to develop a way to prevent that.

In WoW and most modern MMOs: consider this extremely simple example:  Player One is on the top of a very steep hill.  Player Two is at the bottom of the very steep hill.  Player Two lures a monster to the edge of the hill and uses a stealth skill to disappear.  Player One proceeds to shoot the monster from an unassailable position on top of the hill.

Modern MMOs deal with this in one of two ways.  The monster will simply begin to evade every attack thrown at it and return to its spawn point.  Or else the monster will defy physics and walk directly up the side of the cliff to beat on the player.  Both of these break immersion.  What is considered a valid tactic in actual warfare is deemed an exploit by developers who then include "cheats" to enable the monster to continue fighting the player.  Players are discouraged from thinking and using the environment to their advantage.

 

As for the orange text, I very much agree.  If they do incorporate a smart AI, we need to draw a line between winning vs. exploiting.

As for the rest, that isn't really AI? I think that is just a problem that static spawns in a static world have created.  Mobs evade in wow because they have run too far away from their spawn location.  Or, they teleport in EQ because they can't find a valid path to the player, and can't just stand there ... I think EQN might just be an inherent solution to that problem; with their 'dynamic world ai'.

I think one of the points that they are trying to make is that with the mobs roaming around free, players will be able to use the environment to get away from mobs, or even spark tactical approaches to fights that a static world would never provide.  

Like you said I hope they can implement that well.  As far as software tech for AI, I feel that the tech is on the cusp of a revelation in many areas.  But is important to isolate the subject. Weather it is internal emotional struggle for the creature, or how the creature interacts with others in the world, how the creature interprets situations and thinks/plans ahead, or even how the creature reacts to the world around it with no players or creatures around.  Alright, now we are getting close to consciousness, perhaps?.  AI is huge.  Crowd behavior can be modeled completely independently from a single characters behavior.

I do hope that storybricks and their AI team has pushed forward far enough to enable really dynamic adaptive creatures (dynamic world + dynamic setting (players) = need for dynamic learning AI) , but I agree, the ideal solution is a longshot.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2217

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

8/13/13 7:14:40 PM#32
Originally posted by Strayfe
Originally posted by kyssari

I find your analogy of doctors and lawyers being more loyal and better community members so to speak because of the hard work and dedication they put into getting there kind of ironic. In pretty much every f2p game out there the people who don't spend a dime have to put far more work and time into getting to max lvl and advancing their character than any player who dishes out the cash for all the perks to make it easier, yet the F2P player is the worthless bottom feeder? While your entitled to your opinions of course you don't need to come off sounding like the Hitler of online gaming by declaring anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to a game is a worthless bottomfeeder that ruins every game they touch. Theres just as many bad people who subscribe and dish out the cash as there are those who don't spend a dime. I've also played numerous games that are f2p with plenty of people who play them without spending a dime and said games have a far better community than a lot of sub games. I'll take the Vanguard community over the WoW community any day. Regardless of the games business model every game will have its bad apples, the simple fact of wether they spend the money or not doesn't mean they are any better or worse a member of the community. More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

 

I've been laid up for over 7 years with a damaged spine, unable to get out hardly let alone work, surviving off of limited assistance, only really able to interact with people online but regardless of that I am apparently a worthless bottom feeder because I can't afford to dish out the cash on a regular basis. Thanks for clearing that up OP I appreciate it.

You misunderstood my post.  Doctors and lawyers aren't inherently better members of the community.  They are more loyal to their professions, because of the time and effort and money for school they have spent to get where they are.  They are less likely to change careers.  Likewise, a gaming experience that requires time, effort and money is more likely to retain customers long term, because they have more invested in it.

A free to play game is like a McDonalds.  There are more people working at McDonalds than there are lawyers and doctors in the world.  But the turnover is extremely high, the quality of people working at a fast food place is generally lower because the job is easier and has far less requirements.  And employees at a McDonalds aren't likely to work there over the long term.  Why is this difficult to understand?  This isn't a personal attack.  It's a simple fact.

What a giant load of:

  Vynxe_Vainglory

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/13
Posts: 21

8/13/13 7:21:26 PM#33

For every troll destroyer, there will be someone dedicated to killing troll destroyers.  

I see no problem here.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1003

8/13/13 7:23:24 PM#34
Originally posted by Strayfe

You're combining four things, F2P, action/twitch combat, console gameplay and destructible environments.  Think about that for a second.  You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed?  This is like taking a prison camp on a field trip to a Columbian drug cartel, or a group of sex offenders to a whorehouse.

You are taking the bottom feeders of the MMORPG community, the lowest common denominators, and giving them an environment where they have carte blanche to devastate any efforts at forming an actual community. 

I'll wait for someone to offer the inevitable argument that, "You're generalizing a huge group of people, and it's not going to be that bad."  Trust me, it is.  

Trust you why? Random internet person #1983193811 how do you know so much?

What games/experiences do you have as an example? There seems to be this mythical scary gamer that roams the F2P, Action, Console worlds and brings pain and suffering to all those in the way, I've managed to avoid them for almost 18 years some how...surprised you didn't add in WoW kiddies as a generalization as well (they are the worstest!)

There will always be dumb people trying to exploit game mechanics, stupid names, going over the top in chat, etc. It is the nature of the beast. Yes they are annoying and yes they can cause trouble, but it is unavoidable. Unfortunately, most MMOs do not come with IQ/Personality tests or maturity detectors.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume SOE knows this and will have things in place to prevent a very small minority from causing too much havoc for the rest of their player base. They've clearly said that they want the game to be fun and will not cater to griefers.

As far as destruction goes, even though they claim "everything" is destructible, they've basically said that certain areas (story driven) either won't be destructible or it will be very difficult to do so.

A guild of morons isn't going to bulldoze Freeport or make huge pits for new players to fall in. Maybe they'll mow down a forest, but luckily EQN will be huge, plenty of forest for everyone.

The game world will start healing after 5 min. If a guild really wants to devote all their time and energy to constantly destroying an area, oh no! Unless they have hundreds of people doing this at once forever, what harm will they really do? 

You put way too much faith in the lower denominator. They usually get bored way too quickly or players/employees deal with them if needed. I'm pretty sure that if a individual or group are causing an even greater number to be unhappy, SOE will act.

As someone that can fall into all the categories you list, as well as a MMORPG gamer, I find it funny that you feel so much superior due to your genre of choice. I've seen just as many idiots in MMORPG as I've seen in FPS, F2P, Console games over the years. No genre is exempt for trouble makers, nor are any exempt of people claiming the sky is falling...

BTW...I think the graphics look top notch and can't wait to see more.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

8/13/13 7:55:14 PM#35

Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1003

8/13/13 8:03:02 PM#36
Originally posted by Elikal

Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

8/13/13 8:06:16 PM#37
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Elikal

Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

Irony is such a bad substitute for arguments.

No single factor is all decisive, neither F2P or whatevs. But it certainly contributes to the lack of loyal communities. But I guess it is much easier to appeal to the laughing audience than to go into the nuances of multiple cause and effect connections. I understand that must be tiresome.

Oops.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Strayfe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/30/07
Posts: 184

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
"Nobody provokes me with impunity."

 
OP  8/13/13 8:08:17 PM#38

Let's see.  To those who actually addressed the points, thank you.

I will go ahead and concede that SOE may have things thought out well in advance.  That is certainly a possibility.  History has shown, however, that gamers have found ways to push, pull and prod content that even the most diligent developer never thought possible.  The systems included in EQN simply make it easier for jerks to be jerks in new and unique ways that don't have a history of other games worth of solutions in them to fall back on.

SOE is trying to push the envelope in terms of game mechanics, they also have to be prepared to push the envelope in policing the way those mechanics are handled, particularly in light of their target audience (which, to my amazement, people seem to be insisting is no more poorly behaved than, say, the old school EQ crowd).

I see this as a potential problem that has mostly gone overlooked amidst all the chest thumping over the graphics (which are fine as far as I'm concerned).  It may be more or less of a problem than I anticipate, but for all the people ignoring obvious facts and common sense and falling back on the 'bigot' labels and ad hominem attacks by trying to pretend that a McDonalds employee is just as intelligent, useful and beneficial to society as a doctor (to keep with the analogy) based on some misguided kumbaya moral high ground... well, classes and divisions in society and in MMOs exist for a reason.  Hint: it's not because of my opinion.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2217

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

8/13/13 8:30:22 PM#39
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Elikal

Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

Irony is such a bad substitute for arguments.

No single factor is all decisive, neither F2P or whatevs. But it certainly contributes to the lack of loyal communities. But I guess it is much easier to appeal to the laughing audience than to go into the nuances of multiple cause and effect connections. I understand that must be tiresome.

Oops.

'Irony' is actually a bad substitute for 'sarcasm' - which is the word you wanted... /wink.

My preference is for a subscription.

My preference is also for a jet pack instead of a car.

And like a subscription, I'm realistic enough to know that jet pack just ain't gonna happen.

In this extremely competitive over-saturated market - releasing with a sub only and no f2p model would be business suicide. And as I said earlier.....there's only like 2 sub games left - you think subs are about to spring back into viability? stay down, Rocky - stay down.

So as we have to do with so many things in life,  we must accept that reality isn't perfect. F2P models are, for the foreseeable future, the most logical way to survive. No matter what its unintended consequences are on 'community'.  I don't like it, but I accept it. 

So, these days, I've trained myself to realize that a sub option is the best I can hope for in pretty much any game - and I'd be pretty surprised if EQN didn't have that option.

There's always FFXIV for you folks. You can play that with a sub....oh I'm predicting maybe up to a year, before they have to cave.

_________________________

 

 

  Blazefire

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 33

"Bards don't sing of the many, they sing of the few."

8/13/13 8:31:04 PM#40

You do realize that this is SOE's version of free to play right? Have you tried playing EQ2 under the "free" model they offer? It is pretty limiting... in fact I would call their free to play more like an extended trial, with the exception of Planetside 2. If you want to seriously play their games you pretty much have to subscribe due to the limitations.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they limit free accounts as far as not being able to destroy certain things that a subscriber might be able to damage. If they haven't already thought of this then they should, I think it would be a good idea. Besides this limitation I'm sure there will be item, bag, mail, and other limitations imposed on these free accounts.

These restrictions will hopefully keep some of the "bottom feeders" at bay, at least for the most part.

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