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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you miss corpse runs?

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293 posts found
  Torval

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6584

8/12/13 11:17:01 PM#41

Hell no.  Lineage didn't even have the luxury of corpse runs.  You rez'd and hoped to hell you could find your gear before someone else or a slime picked it up.  Gear loss and weeks or more of xp loss... I don't miss that at all.

Even getting rez'd was a risk because the person rezzing you might just kill you again, or if your party is trying to rez you might all be too weakened to recover and die again with another full xp loss and more gear dropping.

It never made the challenge better, only the threat of tedious re-leveling was motivation to avoid death.  It was a risk-taking deterrent and a bad mechanic that I'm glad has gone the way of the dodo in current design.

Curse you AquaScum!

  munx4555

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 170

8/12/13 11:37:04 PM#42
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Hell no.  Lineage didn't even have the luxury of corpse runs.  You rez'd and hoped to hell you could find your gear before someone else or a slime picked it up.  Gear loss and weeks or more of xp loss... I don't miss that at all.

Even getting rez'd was a risk because the person rezzing you might just kill you again, or if your party is trying to rez you might all be too weakened to recover and die again with another full xp loss and more gear dropping.

It never made the challenge better, only the threat of tedious re-leveling was motivation to avoid death.  It was a risk-taking deterrent and a bad mechanic that I'm glad has gone the way of the dodo in current design.

 

Not as much a risk-taking deterrent as it was the risk itself.

 

While Lineage took it to a extreme, and eq1's corpse run mechanics wernt perfect, the lack of risk in mmo's today is worse then the high risks in the older mmos.

You never rly need to think twice about your actions anymore in mmos, just go for it and if you die no harm no foul, that in my opinion is a bad mechanic.

 

  neorandom

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 1753

8/12/13 11:48:08 PM#43

all these new fangled post eq 1 games dont have real corpse runs or even potential losses from death.

 

in eq 1 you could delevel from dieing (you lost xp each time you died) and the best res only gave back 96%, and odds are 90% was the only res you might find, corpses res timers also eroded over time and expired within 24 hours of being logged in if i recall right.

 

if you started in freeport, and traversed the great plains of karana, and braved the vast deserts and crossed the great wastes (or found a druid or wizard to teleport you) and eventually made the ship crossing to the elvish lands to hunt clan crushbone orcs (my human shadow knight and iksar monk both did this back in the day) you had to find someone to bind you so that you literally didnt come back to live, and have to make that entire journey, again, naked, and it took 4-6 hours to run that guantlet.

 

and you had to get a bind out of range of the kill on sight high level gaurds, until you killed enough orcs that they would tolerate you at least.

 

you can make jokes that you cut yourself instead or whatever, but gaming back in the day in the first real 3d world, with consequences for poor choices, built online character into your characters.  yould join up with strangers just to teach each other to talk the same languages, even if you were born blood enemies, then you could at least trade insults in a proper civilized fashion.

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7960

8/13/13 12:16:00 AM#44
Originally posted by neorandom

all these new fangled post eq 1 games dont have real corpse runs or even potential losses from death.

 

in eq 1 you could delevel from dieing (you lost xp each time you died) and the best res only gave back 96%, and odds are 90% was the only res you might find, corpses res timers also eroded over time and expired within 24 hours of being logged in if i recall right.

 

if you started in freeport, and traversed the great plains of karana, and braved the vast deserts and crossed the great wastes (or found a druid or wizard to teleport you) and eventually made the ship crossing to the elvish lands to hunt clan crushbone orcs (my human shadow knight and iksar monk both did this back in the day) you had to find someone to bind you so that you literally didnt come back to live, and have to make that entire journey, again, naked, and it took 4-6 hours to run that guantlet.

 

and you had to get a bind out of range of the kill on sight high level gaurds, until you killed enough orcs that they would tolerate you at least.

 

you can make jokes that you cut yourself instead or whatever, but gaming back in the day in the first real 3d world, with consequences for poor choices, built online character into your characters.  yould join up with strangers just to teach each other to talk the same languages, even if you were born blood enemies, then you could at least trade insults in a proper civilized fashion.

When you're a subscription game, you create a lot of arbitrary ways for players to be forced to subscribe longer.  The intent of those features isn't to make the game deeper or more fun, but to take longer.

If I'd been a designer on early MMORPGs, I would get a big laugh about how players a decade later are steadfastly defending design decisions made not because they were in players' best interests, but in order to make more money from them.

  jesad

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 749

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

8/13/13 12:43:26 AM#45

I also miss corpse runs.  Sure, they were time consuming, annoying, and sometimes outright frustrating but so were my kids and I like them just the same.

As for the idea of them being just some mechanism to cause the player to subscribe to the game longer, well.....isn't that what the entire game is?  I mean really, the spin put on certain kinds of logic here amaze me.

Corpse runs were out and out entertainment.  They caused players to think and work together in ways that just don't happen that much anymore, and sure, that's great if you are of the mind to just get in there and prove how much better you are at the game than the next guy, but if you got in there to actually prove how much better you are than the game, corpse runs helped facilitate exactly that.

Remember having to sit out a healer in order to rez the raid in case of a wipe?

What about having to have a bard invis the entire group in order to run them back to their corpses in case the healer who was left behind got killed?

And for the real old timers, what about that loot timer that you had to beat or all of your stuff would go POOF!  That was vicious!

But at the end of the day all of these things, and more that had to do with corpse runs, were story generating mechanisms of what was a very good time in MMO's.  And by story I mean PERSONAL story, not server provided beef patties with special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame seed bun.

Now what story do you have to tell?  How you cast a spell on the same mob that everyone on the server cast the same spell on from the right instead of the left?  Oh wait, at least half the server can tell that same story too because there is no differentiation in running from quest to quest all doing the same string of tasks in pretty much the same order with little or no consequence attached.

Corpse runs happened wherever you screwed up.  Corpse retrievals were personal events every single time.

Sure, quite a few people can probably tell you about losing their corpse inside that gnoll cave outside of Qeynos back in the beginning days of Everquest, but the percentages are way lower than how many people can tell you that they beat or were beaten by Lord Zash in Star Wars The Old Republic (even though that is a fun game) because plain and simple, that game, for all the things it does right, does not have as much character as its predecessors.  On top of this, even if you are one of the several people who may have lost their corpse in this way the differentiation still comes in whether you managed to get your stuff back, if it poofed, who helped you, and how they helped you.

All of these things were singular events that were taken away with the removal of one game mechanic.  I don't know, I just think that it is extremely short-sighted to just say "Yeah I hated it" without really thinking about all that you lost and how little you actually gained when it went away.

  Ariannae

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/12
Posts: 40

8/13/13 1:07:54 AM#46

The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up? Nine times out of ten, death is the result of player error. The player did something incorrectly. The result of that was death. I understand that it's a game, but why -shouldn't- the penalty of screwing up be harsh? Especially at the later levels, where a player should know better.

It's like today's society with the ridiculous "Everyone wins", "No child left behind" crap. This doesn't teach anything. It makes everyone feel all fuzzy inside, but the end result of that is... Nothing. You don't learn from your mistakes. You don't learn that what you did may have been incorrect or the wrong way to handle the current problem. You simply learn that, if you slam your face against whatever content is thrown at you hard enough, you just might be able to slam your face through to the other side, eventually.

Now, I would be absolutely, one hundred percent for having no penalties whatsoever, as long as the gaming communities continued to become more intelligent in their actions. After all, why penalize someone for an accident that was completely unintentional? I'd be all for that. Except that's not what's occurring. Gamers are far more incompetent than they once were. You throw an oldschool game at them, and they're either going to ragequit out, or look up a guide. Most gamers now are incapable of using their brain to get through puzzles flung at them. And if they can't use their brains to solve something in front of them, then they're in the wrong hobby.

A little bit of a rant, but the subtraction of each and every penalty that allowed a player to realize that they were playing in a poor manner certainly won't lead to smarter and/or better players. It's going to lead to more and more of what is currently rearing it's ugly head; catering to the least common denominator.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/13/13 1:12:52 AM#47
Originally posted by munx4555
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Hell no.  Lineage didn't even have the luxury of corpse runs.  You rez'd and hoped to hell you could find your gear before someone else or a slime picked it up.  Gear loss and weeks or more of xp loss... I don't miss that at all.

Even getting rez'd was a risk because the person rezzing you might just kill you again, or if your party is trying to rez you might all be too weakened to recover and die again with another full xp loss and more gear dropping.

It never made the challenge better, only the threat of tedious re-leveling was motivation to avoid death.  It was a risk-taking deterrent and a bad mechanic that I'm glad has gone the way of the dodo in current design.

 

Not as much a risk-taking deterrent as it was the risk itself.

 

While Lineage took it to a extreme, and eq1's corpse run mechanics wernt perfect, the lack of risk in mmo's today is worse then the high risks in the older mmos.

You never rly need to think twice about your actions anymore in mmos, just go for it and if you die no harm no foul, that in my opinion is a bad mechanic.

 

Failure is a good enough risk already. If you fail, you lose, and you waste your time and that of others. That's the proper amount of risk because it's intrinsic to the game, and isn't further penalizing you for something that is essentially inevidable.

There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes

  Cochran1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 460

"Fish can't sit down cause they got no laps!!"

8/13/13 1:23:27 AM#48
Nope, I'd rather see a mechanic where you stay dead until another player carries your corpse to a shrine or uses a spell/item to rez you. Semi permadeath would add much more fear than any corpse run.
vizzledrix Xfire Miniprofile
  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6170

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

8/13/13 1:25:24 AM#49
Nope,  hopefully it wont make a come back either.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6170

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

8/13/13 1:33:16 AM#50
Originally posted by Ariannae

The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up? Nine times out of ten, death is the result of player error. The player did something incorrectly. The result of that was death. I understand that it's a game, but why -shouldn't- the penalty of screwing up be harsh? Especially at the later levels, where a player should know better.

It's like today's society with the ridiculous "Everyone wins", "No child left behind" crap. This doesn't teach anything. It makes everyone feel all fuzzy inside, but the end result of that is... Nothing. You don't learn from your mistakes. You don't learn that what you did may have been incorrect or the wrong way to handle the current problem. You simply learn that, if you slam your face against whatever content is thrown at you hard enough, you just might be able to slam your face through to the other side, eventually.

Now, I would be absolutely, one hundred percent for having no penalties whatsoever, as long as the gaming communities continued to become more intelligent in their actions. After all, why penalize someone for an accident that was completely unintentional? I'd be all for that. Except that's not what's occurring. Gamers are far more incompetent than they once were. You throw an oldschool game at them, and they're either going to ragequit out, or look up a guide. Most gamers now are incapable of using their brain to get through puzzles flung at them. And if they can't use their brains to solve something in front of them, then they're in the wrong hobby.

A little bit of a rant, but the subtraction of each and every penalty that allowed a player to realize that they were playing in a poor manner certainly won't lead to smarter and/or better players. It's going to lead to more and more of what is currently rearing it's ugly head; catering to the least common denominator.

The thing  is a corpse run is not a penalty but a repetitive chore.  Hell I would prefer to drop an item from my inventory over a corpse run.  

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1974

8/13/13 1:44:41 AM#51

Hmmm, missing them is too much. But the OP has many good points I agree with, especially resurrecting other dead players.

 

I also think that games like WoW could have improved the corpse run thing a lot. Like, give people special abilities while they are ghosts, andhave some sort of spirits hunt them or whatever The only thing I ever saw in WoW like that was a quest giver that was only visible to dead people.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/13/13 1:46:33 AM#52
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

Volunteering for root canals works, until you run out of fresh teeth.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Lawlmonster

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 958

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

8/13/13 1:47:08 AM#53
Sure, I miss the heightened anxiety that corpse runs can instill given certain scenarios, and I also recognize through the games I play that I'm a glutton for punishment. It's understandable why people don't like them, but I think outright saying that all corpse runs for every type of player are a waste of time is a mistake of calculation or an error in judgement, specifically those of us who are more interested in what I'd call "emergent story telling", that is to say, a series of non-scripted events which leads a player to experience the unexpected. The real problem with emergent story telling is that it's mostly just waiting for cool shit to happen, which always seems far more interesting because you've spent ninety percent of your time playing with yourself, staring at a wall, or in the case of corpse runs, tediously searching Greater Fay for a specific landmark.

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  Gorilla

Old School

Joined: 6/07/04
Posts: 2222

8/13/13 1:51:27 AM#54
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

That is a good substitution for the pain ( though slamming your testicles between a couple of bricks works well too). The problem is how to capture the complete and utter sense of frustration?

  Torval

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6584

8/13/13 1:55:58 AM#55
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by munx4555
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Hell no.  Lineage didn't even have the luxury of corpse runs.  You rez'd and hoped to hell you could find your gear before someone else or a slime picked it up.  Gear loss and weeks or more of xp loss... I don't miss that at all.

Even getting rez'd was a risk because the person rezzing you might just kill you again, or if your party is trying to rez you might all be too weakened to recover and die again with another full xp loss and more gear dropping.

It never made the challenge better, only the threat of tedious re-leveling was motivation to avoid death.  It was a risk-taking deterrent and a bad mechanic that I'm glad has gone the way of the dodo in current design.

Not as much a risk-taking deterrent as it was the risk itself.

While Lineage took it to a extreme, and eq1's corpse run mechanics wernt perfect, the lack of risk in mmo's today is worse then the high risks in the older mmos.

You never rly need to think twice about your actions anymore in mmos, just go for it and if you die no harm no foul, that in my opinion is a bad mechanic.

Failure is a good enough risk already. If you fail, you lose, and you waste your time and that of others. That's the proper amount of risk because it's intrinsic to the game, and isn't further penalizing you for something that is essentially inevidable.

There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes

Failure is enough of a punishment. You want the shiny, but you can't have the shiny.  You can still have fun with your friends trying.  You don't need a kick in the junk to remind you that everyone wiped because you didn't heal, cleanse, disco, burn the cooldown, etc.  Isn't enough to have to say you're sorry for the repair bill?

Curse you AquaScum!

  Torval

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6584

8/13/13 1:57:39 AM#56
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

Volunteering for root canals works, until you run out of fresh teeth.

See Mike, this is why we need LIKE buttons.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/13/13 2:09:24 AM#57
Originally posted by Ariannae

The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up?

The bruised knuckles from punching the wall aren't enough?

Here's the thing: There is no in-game retribution for dying you can bestow upon a toon that I haven't experienced. I lived though droppage+breakage+corpse runs+dragging, all in the same title. You mmorpg pansies have it soft, by comparison. Devs in the early 90s were real sadists.

Do you learn anything that swearing (at yourself) doesn't already teach? Any player who takes his skills seriously is truly annoyed (at themselves) every time they pull a bonehead and get swatted by something trivial. PVP players? You can just hear them punching their screens and going all Angry German Kid, sometimes.

 

Darkfall wants to sell you "manly, macho, True Gamer Men chestthump", it's one of their marketing bullets. Real Death Penalties Rawr!!

Yet...oddly...that remains a very small title.

These features also, apparently, only 'sell' a sub to a tiny fraction of the audience.

 

On the great sliding scale of "acceptable" vs "unacceptable", you're going to find a different point {x} where every player lies, regarding death penalties. Once you escape the forums and leave the posturing behind...it doesn't look like Big Death Pens are a 'selling' feature for very many people.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3478

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

8/13/13 2:19:55 AM#58
I cant miss them, I still have them ...
  Ariannae

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/12
Posts: 40

8/13/13 2:24:02 AM#59
Originally posted by Icewhite

Do you learn anything that swearing (at yourself) doesn't already teach? Any player who takes his skills seriously is truly annoyed (at themselves) every time they pull a bonehead and get swatted by something trivial. PVP players? You can just hear them punching their screens and going all Angry German Kid, sometimes.

This is something that I very much agree with. The problem, which is also probably why I ask why there shouldn't be a penalty, is that I don't think most players think like that. I've sat and watched people simply go at something, regardless of how many times they fail. And they're far more inclined to do so because there are next to no repercussions now. And I think that, right now, that is what the majority of gamers do. The jaded, cynical players that even -know- what a corpse run is are, frankly, not the majority anymore. We're an extremely niche group; hell, I'd be inclined to say that everyone on these forums are a niche group in comparison to the actual playerbases nowadays.

I see more intelligence on these forums than in a lot of games. And that in itself says something, as I don't know how high I'd rank the average intelligence on these forums. And I think that's where my opinion, at least, stems from; those that already know better will continue to know better. You won't be able to teach them through corpse runs or major penalties. The other, far newer major influx of players that don't seem to know right from wrong until someone spells it out, word for word, however...

Thus, if those that already know better avoid things such as corpse runs, because they -already- know better, then the only ones to seriously be penalized are those that don't have a clue. Which is what we need right now, given the current trends.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/13/13 2:29:18 AM#60
Originally posted by Ariannae
You won't be able to teach them through corpse runs or major penalties. The other, far newer major influx of players that don't seem to know right from wrong until someone spells it out, word for word, however...

Ah, you've been drinking the "my generation was just better" kool-aid.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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