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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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340 posts found
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 3517

There... are... four... lights!

8/12/13 11:03:04 AM#281
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.

You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.

Please, stop the nonsense. With the way loot drops work now in WoW, if you really played the game right now, you should know this is a non-issue. My take is that you don't play the game at all, or at least not as a fresh max level tank.

I don't need to prove you wrong... you are simply wrong. Any person who really plays WOW right now as a max level tank knows it. If your only escape from having to admit you've been wrong is to post such nonsense, then so be it, I'm all for making other people feel better when I can. Here are 3 pints for you:

EDIT and PS: I'm going to do you a favor and link this thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6606903045

Notice the pre-heroic 5 man pieces? Notice the "crafted" part? You can buy your tank gear right off the AH as soon as you hit max level, or just craft it yourself. Just like a DPS.

EDIT2: and before you post another nonsensical message... DPS can't enter heroic dungeons before they have the required item level, just like tanks (or healers). So the myth of the DPS who just hit max level and directly goes into heroics is only that... a myth.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

----------------

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  GeezerGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5675

8/12/13 11:30:48 AM#282
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.

You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.

Please, stop the nonsense. With the way loot drops work now in WoW, if you really played the game right now, you should know this is a non-issue. My take is that you don't play the game at all, or at least not as a fresh max level tank.

I don't need to prove you wrong... you are simply wrong. Any person who really plays WOW right now as a max level tank knows it. If your only escape from having to admit you've been wrong is to post such nonsense, then so be it, I'm all for making other people feel better when I can. Here are 3 pints for you:

EDIT and PS: I'm going to do you a favor and link this thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6606903045

Notice the pre-heroic 5 man pieces? Notice the "crafted" part? You can buy your tank gear right off the AH as soon as you hit max level, or just craft it yourself. Just like a DPS.

Aaaand it continues.

Somehow trading one grind for another somehow magically makes the Tank's gear requirements less than DPS to get into the same content.

I'm not even going to get into posting a link to Tank gear requirements in WoW that's a year old. (Did you really just do that?)

OK, Have a good day sir, you win I'm done.

  Abye

Novice Member

Joined: 8/01/07
Posts: 53

8/12/13 11:42:35 AM#283

A problem of the class trinity was that it required classes/builds that are by itself just unfun to play. Playing a healer or tank outside of group content felt like a waste of time. Rift tried to sidestep the problem with it respec-fest when otherwise it stuck to the EQ/WoW formula. 

 

Still the most fun was bulldozing a mission in City of Heroes/Villains when any proper build would contribute to the group and it would often just work, often with no healer or classic tank.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 3517

There... are... four... lights!

8/12/13 11:43:38 AM#284

OK, Have a good day sir, you win I'm done.

I "won" like 3 posts ago, when you started to post stuff you imagine is true instead of experience of someone who really plays the game right now. I tried to help you though:

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
And before you post another nonsensical message... DPS can't enter heroic dungeons before they have the required item level, just like tanks (or healers). So the myth of the DPS who just hit max level and directly goes into heroics is only that... a myth.

What about this? You say DPS can simply enter heroics, without showing their IDs... when they actually have exactly the same gear requirements as a tank. All characters need item level 435 to get into heroics!

So what? Hello? Yes, I indeed "won", because you posted nonsense, stuff someone playing WoW would facepalm at.

 

Now is a tank's job "harder" in a trinity system than a DPS? Yes, I definitely think so. But the difficulty definitely doesn't come from the gear... actually, tanks have it easier, since even in a 5 man group, you usually have 3 dps and only 1 tank, so he isn't fighting two other people for loot drops. The difficulty comes from being the only wall between the mobs and the squishies, meaning that if you screw up, everybody dies.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

----------------

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  marsh9799

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 103

8/12/13 12:38:14 PM#285
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by marsh9799

The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

 

Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

 

I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

 

I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/12/13 12:46:25 PM#286
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t

So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  stevebombsquad

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 857

8/12/13 4:47:01 PM#287
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t

So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone. 

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6013

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/12/13 6:10:05 PM#288
Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by marsh9799

The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

 

Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

 

I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

 

I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.

Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.

The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.

The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 183

8/12/13 6:12:41 PM#289
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t

So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone. 

Which unfortunately is a massive population and hence end up steering the direction of games due to their financial weighting. Games are really only fun in the early adopter stage. Once they become "cool" and all the Joe and Judy averages turn up things go to shit.

 

 

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3921

8/12/13 6:33:25 PM#290
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6013

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/12/13 6:42:25 PM#291
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

You're creating a strawman argument: People are not talking about dropping roles, they're talking about dropping the holy trinity.

And you are wrong. Games like DDO and GW1 have strong roles, but are still solo friendly due to available AI controlled henchmen/mercenaries.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/12/13 6:42:40 PM#292
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by KBishop
If monsters had true human AI, it wouldn't be fun, you know why? Because the AI would go directly for healers first, spam their strongest aoe and CC, and completely forego tanks. It wouldn't just be chaotic, it'd be unplayable.

You've just described PvP. Is PvP "unplayable"?

no because PvP doesn't consist of raid bosses that can 1 shot a healer :p

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/12/13 6:44:29 PM#293
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

I agree that there is room in the genre for Trinity and non trinity games.

I would also agree that to date no one has come up with a better PvE group combat dynamic than the Trinity in MMORPGs.\

That doesn't mean it isn't  past time the industry tried to come up with better solutions or shouldn't try. Part of any solution is making MOBs that can create and respond to more complex interactions than the simple Trinity mechanic.

Whether EQN will be the first to manage it or just another step or misstep on the way to it is yet to be seen.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/12/13 6:49:13 PM#294
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by KBishop

If monsters had true human AI, it wouldn't be fun, you know why? Because the AI would go directly for healers first, spam their strongest aoe and CC, and completely forego tanks. It wouldn't just be chaotic, it'd be unplayable.

Do you know in which game that wouldn't be a problem at all? In one that doesn't have healers or tanks ...

It would still be a problem but it would be less so. Many games where the computer has a 'trump' card and consistantly uses it are considered to be rigged, because the computer has an IWIN button that you can't circumvent.

Think of it this way. Lets say you have some raid boss with 3 attacks that each do 50% of your hp. In scripted AI, the boss would probably do them once ever 30seconds - minute so that you have time to at least recover. In a REAL AI, any smart person(and smart AI) would simply spam those abilities in rapid succession so that you'd be dead. Of course you could put other restrictions on the boss such as "They can't use these abilities but once every 30 seconds" but there are still other things they could and probably would do, such as running away when battle is getting to heated, targeting the most threatening person (healers first, then top dps), or use CC in tandem with other abilities, or hell getting any and every creature within the zone to simply sit next to it so that they turtle.

Then you place restriction after restriction such as "The boss cannot run, period" or "The boss will target the person with an arbitrary number" (threat), or "The boss cannot rally other enemies to help defend it" and so on, until you have *drum roll* scripted AI.

  Slappy1

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/12
Posts: 464

8/12/13 6:49:48 PM#295

People may not like it,but I honestly could care less.

I point the finger straight at GW2 and it's fans.See it seems people want to think that newer mmo's need to be super solo friendly and screw everyone else,it's me me me.I don't care what other people do in the raid.it's about me and only me.

Thus mmorpg's now days are a watered down version of what they once was.People rush to lvl cap and then bitch about nothing to do.An mmorpg years ago wasn't about cap,it was the whole of the game experience.

Having a trinity worked and promoted social interaction well before one entered the battlefield.Not some dumbed down version that's like,hey just run and join a group and heal yourself while you fight,or dps or tank.Please,it's a disgrace to the genre.

Sometimes change can be good,but doing away with trinity is not the answer,it's stupid!

Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

Arya Stark

  monstermmo

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/10
Posts: 1074

8/12/13 6:51:31 PM#296
I decided the "holy trinity" was a bad thing. You're welcome.

Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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  crashdx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/13
Posts: 55

8/12/13 7:30:50 PM#297
Meh, I've come close to despising the thing. In most games it's just a prettier version of whack-a-mole. The DPS hits his buttons at the same time, the healer does so with a little more thought, and the tank just hopes he can stay alive. Everyone is so into their role that some guy went through dungeons in WoW with barely anyone noticing that he wasn't doing anything. For as much grief GW2 gets(from people who do not play), I guarantee you that is not happening. There is no half-asleep mode in it's 5 man encounters.
  DeserttFoxx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2393

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

8/12/13 7:32:26 PM#298
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

Please name one game that has improved the AI, they have been removing the trinity since guild wars 2. I have yet to see this new and improved AI that warrents it.

Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  marsh9799

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 103

8/12/13 11:50:41 PM#299
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by marsh9799

The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

 

Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

 

I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

 

I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.

Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.

The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.

The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

There's plenty of ways tanking can work other than that.  Current DnD uses forced movement, collision / positioning, and opportunity attacks.    If you didn't run with a tank and a healer in PnP games, you could make do... provided you stick to certain types of adventures, don't get unlucky rolls, and/or have a GM who rains down magical healing potions like nobody's business.

 

Non-trinity combat is identical to the trinity combat you describe.  It's formulaic and trivial.  You do the exact same thing over and over again depending on the AI.

 

And you clearly haven't done hard raiding.  Nobody needs to talk to one another?  LOL!

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 183

8/13/13 1:10:44 AM#300
Originally posted by Quirhid

The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

What on earth is this none sense - I cant even think of a team sport where no one has a role to play. Sure they can play out of their role at times but essentially they have roles and in fact have usually been selected based on their specialty.

 

You are a prime example of what's silly about this argument - its obvious you haven't done anything remotely hard because if you had, say heroic Ragnaros in Firelands, you would know how difficult and challenging every persons role can be. Sure trinity is boring at toddler level but the challenge is for you to get better and rise to the challenge.

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