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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Would you support amateurs if their target audience wasn't mainstream?

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30 posts found

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

8/12/13 12:05:49 PM#21

Of course not.

I don't play games to support anything. I play games for entertainment.

If a game is fun (to me), i will play whether it is made by the profs (like Marvel Heroes) or indie/amateur (like the Shadowrun Return game).


  User Deleted
8/12/13 12:08:11 PM#22
Gonna be donating money to Gloria Victis next month, does that constitute a answer?

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 189

8/12/13 12:20:59 PM#23

There's plenty of amateur projects already released, sandboxes included. Take your pick.

Personally if I was a millionaire, I would support Wurm Online, since it has almost everything I want in a sandbox. Severely outdated graphics and lackluster animations is a whole different topic.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 466

OP  8/12/13 12:47:35 PM#24
Originally posted by Mattatron
Originally posted by BearKnight
Originally posted by Mattatron
I agree people should support games because they enjoy them, whether they're from an indie developer OR a studio with massive corporate backing.  Lately I've been disappointed with a number of triple A titles, mmos and otherwise, but I can also be just as disappointed with indie developments, and even more so if have they the pretentious understanding I should somehow give them extra credit on the pure basis they are indie.

It has to do more with the fact that AAA studios are setting the bar higher and higher for production values to be expected from a newly released MMO regardless of studio or Indie development. Animations, sound, textures, and model design are all being pushed higher and higher.

I don't know that developers with AAA backing truly are raising bars lately. Sorry, I don't necessarily agree.

As far as animations and graphics go I'd disagree with your disagreement. As far as textures and model quality go, i'll give you this one. 

Only once though :P


Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 466

OP  8/12/13 12:55:18 PM#25
Originally posted by Dihoru
Gonna be donating money to Gloria Victis next month, does that constitute a answer?

Googled Gloria Victis.


Thumbs up :)


Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1518

8/12/13 2:40:46 PM#26
Originally posted by BearKnight

In other words, if someone like you or me with a decent amount of programming experience started up an MMO project based on inspirations such as DAOC, EQ, Shadowbane, SWG, and UO all rolled into one, would you support them?


One of the largest hurdles I see from fellow developers is that they REALLY want to make a game that targets the more in-depth audience that doesn't like being hand-held around a game (aka: not mainstream), but they just don't know if the market is willing to embrace Amateur MMO developers anymore. 

Indie gaming for the PC has taken a backseat to the more open market of the mobile platform. Small teams of 5 or so can come together, regardless of experience, and make a game to sell on the mobile platform without much hassle. 


However, the MMO market is so much harder. This is because you really don't have an open and diverse community of developers for MMOs like you do the mobile platform. This makes it even harder when you realize that the MMO genre has such high expectations now. As technology progresses people are more demanding on graphics, mechanics, world design, animations, etc. 


What do you guys think? Is Indie developement for MMOs (essentially Amateurs learning their way, coming together to write a game) no longer an acceptable source for MMOs? EvE online started as an Indie product, and has slowly become a huge juggernaut in the Sandbox market (essentially the ONLY good Sandbox MMO on the market).  Yet, they're not something you can easily draw comparisons to for a normal situation.

Ok.. first of all in my humble opinion you have to differ:

- small size budget for niche audience (mostly Indy), like Camelot Unchained, Star Cizizen, Pathfinder Online, Shroud of the Avatar, but with a experienced team(or most part of the team), which want to try their thing, and not focus on the mainstream as the big studios.

- amateur, with small size budget for niche audience, like Mortal Online, like Repopulation, like Greed Monger and so on

For the first category, mostly smaller studios (20-30 ppl), which focus on a one or two audience and craft a game for it. This is most probably successful and i guess we will see a lot more of it.

To the second categories, the real amateurs, first time game developer.. as you see there are a lot of them, but most of them will fail one way or the other. More often than not they do have a even small team (a lot below 20), and they do have no experience, which means there will be a lot try and error during the development, a lot waste of time and withit development costs. Just very few of them will succeed, a few more will get some experience and will get either another project or will get picked up from a studio... 

The amateurs should really better stick to a smaller scale project, just because it doesn't take that much time, doesn't have so many problems. It can be a MMO of some sorts, or maybe a MO, with smaller servers, maybe private server options, and it may be an advantage to work with available and small engines, tools.. or even start from Modding.. examples would be games like Minecraft, DayZ, Mount&Blade or CubeWorld. You will have a lot more chance of success with a small scale project, made errors(and every amateur will make a lot) don't cost that much and are easier fixable.


And i don't see a reason that smaller MMOs would not be a success. I talk about servers with just 100-500 ppl maybe, and maybe even with the options for private servers. Community is a lot more tight-knit, you don't have a lot of server costs, it is a lot more customaizeable(different rulesets), better moddable(better community<->dev interaction), and you can do everything as with a full MMO.


Kickstarter or other similar Indy Platforms are the way to support them.. and i do my fair share of kickstarters to support projects i want to see. Also a similar way of monetization like Mound&Blade, Minecraft, CubeWorld is a way to go, start to sold your game in early beta stadium for a lower price and increase it over time. You get money early on, and maybe even more important you get feedback and community interaction early on. It worked very well for Mount&Blade and Minecraft.


Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/12/13 2:52:23 PM#27  No comment really; you could discuss Gates or Jobs (or dozens of others) too.

It's not a question of "can a successful bootstrap take place"; we know that they can.

But the odds are always seriously against. Timing is everything, and first-to-market is crucial. Bet your cash on the startups, if you like. 1 in 1000000 is a Xerox...the other 999999 guys lose their shirts.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.


Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

8/12/13 2:58:51 PM#28
Originally posted by Icewhite  No comment really; you could discuss Gates or Jobs (or dozens of others) too.

It's not a question of "can a successful bootstrap take place"; we know that they can.

But the odds are always seriously against. Timing is everything, and first-to-market is crucial. Bet your cash on the startups, if you like. 1 in 1000000 is a Xerox...the other 999999 guys lose their shirts.

And there are so many things that can go wrong for small businesses that i am not spending a dime on these "hopes and dreams".

If indeed some good games come out, i can buy it then (like Shadowruns Return .. i intend to get the iOS version when it is out).




Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14583

8/12/13 4:26:52 PM#29
The question isn't what you try to do.  It's what you successfully do.  Everyone who tries to make a game tries it a great one.  Some have more success at that than others.

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

8/12/13 4:35:24 PM#30

1) I will never give my money to a kickstarter type of thing. My money goes to finished products.

2) I don't look at a game and say "Oh it was done by an Indie so I won't play it". I look at a game and say "Looks interesting, I'll play it". So if an Indie makes and interesting game of course I'd support it.





The thing is way too many people think they can just make an MMO. An MMO is the most time consuming and expensive type of game to make and by quite a large margin.


The reason so many Indie developers go to mobile is 1) The market is exploding and 2) It takes a tiny fraction of the work to make a game and if everything goes just right you can pocket millions for little investment. With an MMO you'd spend years along with lots of money and could easily never make your money back as it is such a hard market to break into.


All Indie developers would be smart to start with mobile games and then, if they've had some success and want to try something bigger, move onto larger projects. Then if those larger projects also work, finally consider making an MMO.



I've played with some of the indie engines like Torque and Unity. It is amazing how many people buy a license pop up and say "Hey I am going to make the next big MMO who wants in?" only to disappear a month later when they realize that making a game takes, you know, work. And with an MMO it is a metric ton of work. Why try to do a major project poorly than do a much simpler project (like a mobile game) well?


An MMO needs tons of animations, tons of models, tons of textures, tons of content, tons of NPCs, tons of features, etc etc etc. You need a decent sized team of all very skilled people to have any hope of pulling it off.

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