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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are YOU opposed to Open World Non-instanced dungeons?

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  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16418

8/12/13 1:22:33 AM#41

I kinda think a game should have both. They are a very different experience to play and each have it´s advantages and disadvantages.

For one thing does the small dungeons many games have today some huge problems if you don't isntance them, there is really not enough room in them for more than 2 or at best 3 groups of players in them. None instanced dungeon needs to be huge.

And huge dungeons do take several hours to play through, it is nice to have something small when me and my guildies just have 45 minutes over and want to run something short, even if I enjoy a large dungeon more.

And at some times there just are too many people in the none instanced dungeons, this was common in EQ2 when a new expansion just was out. When the dungeon was too full we ran an instanced one to have something to do while we waited for the worst too clear.

So instance the smaller dungeons but have some large ones that are none instanced. It should really work for everyone, and as OP said: a huge uninstanced dungeon is really fun.

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

8/12/13 1:27:19 AM#42
Originally posted by Loke666

I kinda think a game should have both. They are a very different experience to play and each have it´s advantages and disadvantages.

For one thing does the small dungeons many games have today some huge problems if you don't isntance them, there is really not enough room in them for more than 2 or at best 3 groups of players in them. None instanced dungeon needs to be huge.

And huge dungeons do take several hours to play through, it is nice to have something small when me and my guildies just have 45 minutes over and want to run something short, even if I enjoy a large dungeon more.

And at some times there just are too many people in the none instanced dungeons, this was common in EQ2 when a new expansion just was out. When the dungeon was too full we ran an instanced one to have something to do while we waited for the worst too clear.

So instance the smaller dungeons but have some large ones that are none instanced. It should really work for everyone, and as OP said: a huge uninstanced dungeon is really fun.

Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

8/12/13 1:33:56 AM#43
Originally posted by kaz350
...whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"

 

What's wrong with it is that the mob is called "The Skeleton King" instead of "a skeleton king".

 

In an instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton King is dead, you go outside, reset the zone and kill him again in a new zone - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on lockout.

 

In a non-instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton king is dead, you stand by his spot and kill him again when he respawns - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on respawn.

 

Rate of entry of gear into the game needs to be managed regardless whether a dungeon is shared or instanced.  In instances, it's managed by lockout, in shared world by number and frequency of spawn.  

 

As far as your question, I completely unopposed to open world non-instanced dungeons.  I am also completely unopposed to instanced dungeons.  I would prefer that my game have both in good quantity and quality.    I have fun doing both.  The more dungeons, the better and the two provide different experiences - more types of different experiences, also better.

 

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  maplestone

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Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/12/13 1:38:20 AM#44
Originally posted by ariboersma

Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.

Open dungeons tend to be long, perilous journies - any movement from one part of the dungeon to another tends to be a guantlet of grinding through respawns.  The upside of this is that it becomes noticably safer and more comfortable with a few extra people around - so it can sometimes actually be a more comfortable environment to meet people than forced grouping.

( the key is that you have to avoid competing over a specific spawn site or boss - those are where the friction comes ... its just that this may sound strange if you are coming from instanced dungeons where the bosses are the main content and everything else is just trash )

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/12/13 1:55:43 AM#45
Dynamic non instanced dungeons also offer the possibility of you not knowing what is down the next bend because it is new, it is entirely possible you bit off more than you could chew, where as a instance dungeon always has that level requirement and party make up requirements (or upper end limit) so it always kind of holds your hand, you can't start it till you can do it and you know exactly how many people you need to do it.
  Adamantine

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Posts: 3298

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8/12/13 2:03:47 AM#46

I hate instancing, so ...

 

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

8/12/13 2:04:10 AM#47
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by ariboersma

Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.

Open dungeons tend to be long, perilous journies - any movement from one part of the dungeon to another tends to be a guantlet of grinding through respawns.  The upside of this is that it becomes noticably safer and more comfortable with a few extra people around - so it can sometimes actually be a more comfortable environment to meet people than forced grouping.

( the key is that you have to avoid competing over a specific spawn site or boss - those are where the friction comes ... its just that this may sound strange if you are coming from instanced dungeons where the bosses are the main content and everything else is just trash )

why do dungeons have to be non instanced to be long, perilous journeys? When Maradon came out in WoW I spent over 6 hours in the place in one day.

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

8/12/13 2:07:11 AM#48
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Dynamic non instanced dungeons also offer the possibility of you not knowing what is down the next bend because it is new, it is entirely possible you bit off more than you could chew, where as a instance dungeon always has that level requirement and party make up requirements (or upper end limit) so it always kind of holds your hand, you can't start it till you can do it and you know exactly how many people you need to do it.

Dynamic can be instanced or non and having a set lvl on a dungeon happens in all or nearly all dungeons so that isnt really a valid point either.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/12/13 3:14:41 AM#49
Originally posted by ariboersma

why do dungeons have to be non instanced to be long, perilous journeys? When Maradon came out in WoW I spent over 6 hours in the place in one day.

WoW dungeons (at least in the incarnations I've seen) can be very large and take a long time to grind through, but it's not the same kind of peril ... you don't get the same sense of claustraphobia as the dungeon closes in around you by everything behind you respawning, that same excitement of stumbling across someone else also down in the deapths.   I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that they're very different experiences.

  tofke

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 201

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8/12/13 3:18:59 AM#50
Who says I am...
  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 433

8/12/13 3:34:29 AM#51
Originally posted by kaz350
Originally posted by Voqar
 

Even though you disargee with me I agree with you lol, strange.

 

I cant think of a single moment in my MMORPG history where something I acomplished Solo that was more memorable than something I accomplished in a group.  NONE.  

Can any of you? 

I solo 1vs1 boss and win when nearly dead , some more hit and i would dead , but i manage to win his rare legend helmet. I don't have time to call my friends to help and if i wait , someone will kill it first because that boss is rare and a lots people hunt it.

It my first rare drop in this game , that helmet not my class but i never sell it and keep it until the game closed.

 

I don't think non-instances are better , by use instances you can created more in game active , what i don't like about instance are way developers design them.

 

Something like the limit of number player ,  and gears grind shouldn't exit in instances.

i want to join a instance with 10 of my friend , but it only limit to 5

so i have to chose 4 people and throw away 6 people ? i want to have fun with 11 people not only 5

 

and we have to reset it again and again for party member get all gear , it like a joke

After 10 time reset and i feel sick of it , sick of it.

Can't they just give gears through quests ?

we have quest for this dungeon ask to kill all mobs and all boss ? what we have after complete it ?

trash item to throw in npc shop


 

  Drakenora

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/04
Posts: 89

8/12/13 3:54:57 AM#52

I personally prefer non-instanced dungeons, but only on certain conditions which are hard to meet.

Firstly the dungeons need to be big enough, and hard enough to find, according to estimated population. Nothing kills immersion like a supposedly abandoned mine as full as a football stadium :S An open world dungeon would need several hidden entrances spread across the map, linked together with hidden passageways and mazes. Of course, crowded dungeons are fine as long as it suits the lore^^ (I'm still waiting for Sword Art Online, now that we have the Oculus Rift!)

Secondly It helps to have bosses interspersed that can't be killed, and instead simply retreat into the depths once defeated, opening up a small part of the dungeon for a limited time. This completed kills the need for instancing, as good dungeon design would allow a natural equalized distribution of the population.

Also, I HATE gear-centric games because so far, all of those are gear-centric because they move away from the skill-centric model that I prefer. I like to compare it with Magic: The Gathering. YES to new cards and possibilities of new lethal combinations relevant to the player's skill, NO to giving hardcore players more powerful versions of the same cards...

 

Besides, running a dungeon and rescuing people who need some help, or getting rescued, or just plain chilling out with another group taking a rest/healing before moving on, or getting lost and meeting up with someone else who is lost too trying to find your way out..etc. These things are all impossible in instanced dongeons^^

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6123

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

8/12/13 4:03:08 AM#53
And thus the developers created channels in order to deal with the overcrowding / camping of non instance dungeons.

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  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/12/13 4:40:21 AM#54
Originally posted by kaz350

But there has to be a better way....back in EQ1 I could literally name every single peice of my gear by exact name and where I got it down to rings and earrings.....ask me what my Warlock is wearing in WoW? Bits and peices of Tier 14, WTF is tier 14 gear? ....  

And yes I agree you can still use instances to tell a story nothing wrong with that, have something like a  Story line dungeons that groups can LFG for. But then have harder "Side quest" dungeons that are non-instanced in the open world. 

Eh, the item thing is just how much item content a game has.  If your class in a game only has 3 weapons upgrades, you will remember their names (good) the game will feel woefully short on item content (bad.)  Doesn't really have anything to do with dungeon design.

Also I'm not sure why you'd try to have the "harder" dungeons in the open world, as you'd have to go out of your way to invent several new systems for them to actually be capable of being hard.  Otherwise that "hard" boss is just going to be zerged because...well because that's how open world content works: you can zerg it to make it trivially easy.

It's much easier to handle it in instanced dungeons, probably via a difficulty selection where you can choose the difficulty which is right for your group.  Each encounter would be custom-tailored to provide an extremely tight challenge (and presumably have better rewards to match to increase in challenge.)  Although I suppose I feel like it's slightly better to just have some dungeons which are always at least a certain difficulty since while I don't feel letting everyone see (the easy mode of) all content is bad, I think it's slightly better to have some sections of the game which are clearly known as a good solid challenge.

  User Deleted
8/12/13 5:01:38 AM#55

Simple version is this word devs always toss around called... Immersion.

 

 

I don't exactly find a dungeon packed with people and no mobs... likely to be the experience they were going for.   It would be like sitting down to a game of D&D and when you get to the dungeon its full of other parties... that neither you or the DM knew were there.. somehow.   "Ok sorry guys... obviously the adventure is over for now as the camps are all taken."   Altho I think a lot of Devs decided "contested" content was a good thing... but never really looked at what it was doing to the community in their game.  The only thing that ever makes them "think" is when subs drop and by then its already too late...

 

As to something I saw on the first page...

 

Instances do not kill crafting.   What killed crafting was when devs decided the best gear would come from either doing PvE (aka raiding as it currently is) or farming PvP currency.   Another variation of the "let's kill crafting" scenario is when they make the mats drop in "raids" and also make them BoP.   A lot of people who want to craft... might not have the leet raiding skills to ever actually get the drops.

 

Which really is another problem... raid progression has almost always been about gear (that wasn't crafted).   While I could respond further to me its just another issue all together and not part of the "instance" versus "non instance" topic...

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1316

8/12/13 5:33:26 AM#56
They 'work' in the PVP enviroment (Darkfall, EVE), but they sure don't in the PVE enviroment (which the market is saturated with) because of the ease of griefing and we all know pure PVE-players don't like to be griefed, that's why they prefer the PVE-enviroment.

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  Daaken

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8/12/13 5:59:20 AM#57
Originally posted by xray00

It has nothing to do with gear but rather with making a dungeon feel like a dungeon. Dungeons are about a small group of people entering, exploring and conquering. When a dungeon is not instanced and you can have dozens of groups working through them.

Dungeons are about isolation. They are about overcoming the current occupants. They are not about camping or fighting with other adventurers for content.

I've never understood why people oppose instanced  dungeons. If you don't want to run them because they are instanced and it breaks your 'immersion' (now there is a joke in an mmo but that aside).

Because the thrill of meeting someone in the last likely place and forming a social bond pretty damn entertaining. I'll never forget the First time I stepped foot in Glendon Wood Dungeon or Black Death Catacomb while playing Asheron's Call or Stonehenge Barrow's in DAoC.  The same can not be said for any generic instanced dungeon in any other game I played in the last 7 or 8 years.

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  Loke666

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Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16418

8/12/13 6:08:22 AM#58
Originally posted by ariboersma

Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.

Part of it is the size, none instanced dungeons are usually huge.

Another thing is that sometimes others show up and actually help you out, this would work excellent in a similar system to GW2 where everyone in a bossfight actually get part of the loot and XP.

There is the competetive thing for PvP of course, and you will never be sure which boss that is up and not.

Being able to stay in the dungeon a long time without beting yourself in from the start several time helps as well even if it ain't that fun.

It kinda sounds a bit weird when I analyze it but I really had fun in those large open dungeons, I guess you need to play a few to really get it. Then again, taste differs but I think more people would like it if they just gave it a try.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4342

8/12/13 6:16:09 AM#59

I'm not opposed to them, but I'd never want them to be the only option for that type of content. Both instance and non instance dungeons offer a different type of experience for people.

You'll never really get that PnP feel from an open world one when you have multiple other groups inside killing every thing, but it is fun to have huge open world caves to explore and happen upon other people.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1799

"I shall take your position into consideration"

8/12/13 6:18:13 AM#60

I am not against them at all.

The best PVE x PVP mix I have experienced was in huge public dungeons in Lineage 2. There is nothing massive about instanced dungeons / raids for a few people like in WoW.

In L2 in Lair of Antharas, which was a huge open world dungeon, for instance, there were constantly dozens of other people with whom you could group or eventually fight for nice spots. It wasnt a game breaking issue if you had to fight someone for a spot. If something, it just spiced up the gameplay a little bit.

There have never been huge guilds camping anything on the server where I played, so this argument does not hold at least in case of this game.

Instanced dungeons / raids turn MMORPGs into lobby games. WoW's and other MMOs' design is getting closer to Starcraft with the only difference that they have a persistent world for some reason and Orgrimmar serves as the lobby.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

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