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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Skills bound to weapons? Really?

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159 posts found
  Fionn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 69

8/10/13 8:26:39 PM#81
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

  fizzlesticks

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 45

8/10/13 8:31:47 PM#82
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

There is tons wrong with it in GW2, I know plenty of people that quit because of the weapon skill system.

If you can't handle learning 4 whole abilities at the same time, please go back to Bejeweled.

Being able to customize does not make up for having such a limited set of usable skills.

  Fionn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 69

8/10/13 8:44:34 PM#83

 

There is tons wrong with it in GW2, I know plenty of people that quit because of the weapon skill system.

If you can't handle learning 4 whole abilities at the same time, please go back to Bejeweled.

Being able to customize does not make up for having such a limited set of usable skills.

I have no problem learning 4 abilities at once, and so your comment was pretty childish and naive.

My point is, EQ Next is doing it this way because they want you to focus on your environment and not 30 abilities in your UI.

From how they have explained it.. You have a wide variety of classes and abilities which goes way far in advanced to GW2.

If you wield a Greatsword as a Warrior and change to a berserker.. You stance changes, your class abilities change, and your 4 other abilities can change.. then when you swap weapons, those 8 abilities can also be customized. 

I think this system will work just fine.  I know for a fact in most MMOs besides maybe Rift, I use about 5 attack buttons and the rest are utility.  This will make watching the game easy and I don't have to keep making macros or looking at my abilities bar the entire fight.

Lets not even talk about World of Warcraft where you can plant your face on your keyboard if you set all your buttons on Arcane Missiles and get the highest dps.

  Eeks

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 72

8/10/13 8:48:27 PM#84
Originally posted by TaliskerDev

Lots of good conversation going on here. Figured it would be easier to make an account and respond to everyone than send telegraphs via twitter. 

Please don't take anything I saw here as flippant or condescending,etc.  This is good conversation and I thank you all for participating. 

Let me clear this up for everyone. The current plan is that each class has a pair of weapons that they can use. Each of these weapons  gives the class 4 unique abilities themed for the class. These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class.  So if a class uses 2 swords and a spear then they get 4 abilities for the sword and 4 for the spear.   This list does not grow beyond 4. 

Why did we choose this design?  

As we stated in the class panel our many classes is each very focused. Very very focused on a particular gameplay style.  We also want each to be very visually distinct and identifiable.  Both of these goals become impossible to reach with too many abilities

 As has been pointed out n this thread, in EverQuest Next you are able to become any one of 40 classes at launch. These will feature a wide variety of equipment choices, ability load outs and multi-class options.  On top of that you can mix character abilities between classes for even more customization. Trust me there is something for everyone here.

Another thing that I cannot overstate - this is not your typical mmo. Our class and progression model cannot be accurately compared to anything on the market today.  We have played the games you have played. We know exactly what you are talking about when you bring up issues. Our hope is that together we can make a game we all want to play.

Please keep up the feedback, you guys/gals rock. 

Talisker

Appreciate you hopping on here to answer some questions :)  Feel free to pop onto some of the other topics to sort out some grey areas =p

  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

8/10/13 9:21:26 PM#85
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

Would you rather have more abilities but they are basically carbon copies of each other?

From what I gather, there's more to it than just what abilities you have. Your equipment modifies your abilities as well. Getting a certain sword will make your attacks against undead more effective or even add lightning damage.

  Eeks

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 72

8/10/13 9:25:45 PM#86
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

Starting with very few abilities is pretty typical in mmo's or at least it used to be (I haven't been playing many lately).

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 589

8/10/13 9:28:36 PM#87
Originally posted by Eeks
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

Starting with very few abilities is pretty typical in mmo's or at least it used to be (I haven't been playing many lately).

It's still like that. It's part of games learning curves and progression.

 

 

  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

8/10/13 9:33:25 PM#88
Originally posted by Eeks
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

Starting with very few abilities is pretty typical in mmo's or at least it used to be (I haven't been playing many lately).

Yes and in most games, the spells and skills you get are just rehashes of spells and skills you already had.

It was said somewhere that it would take less time to get to tier 4 than it would to level to 90 in WoW. Your primary mode of progression and getting new skills in EQN will be obtaining classes.

  ClassicEQ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 145

8/10/13 9:34:04 PM#89
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

  Fionn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 69

8/10/13 9:41:59 PM#90
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

I'm not worried.  Each class supposedly has a different ways of movement.  So you will have a lot of diversity.  

  Whiskey_Sam

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 275

Nemo me impune lacessit.

8/10/13 9:42:00 PM#91
Oy vey.

___________________________
Have flask; will travel.

  ClassicEQ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 145

8/10/13 9:44:30 PM#92
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

I'm not worried.  Each class supposedly has a different ways of movement.  So you will have a lot of diversity.  

And what good does that do if everyone can acquire every class? You won't need each other.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/10/13 9:54:35 PM#93
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by Eeks
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

Starting with very few abilities is pretty typical in mmo's or at least it used to be (I haven't been playing many lately).

It's still like that. It's part of games learning curves and progression.

 

 

How long does it take to learn 8 buttons? And you say they are going to start with fewer than that?

Any 7-year old child would have that down in minutes, and yet this is supposed to be an activity that engages adults for years. This doesn't strike anyone else as insulting?

 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/10/13 9:57:29 PM#94
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

I'm not worried.  Each class supposedly has a different ways of movement.  So you will have a lot of diversity.  

And what good does that do if everyone can acquire every class? You won't need each other.

Just because you can have every class doesn't mean you can be every class...at the same time.

I am more worried about this carrying over to crafting and people maxing out every crafting spec at once, which was a big problem with the new darkfall system. This was certainly not the case with SWG or UO and I hope, since they keep paying homage to SWG in conversation they do not go that route.

Back to your point, you may have a healer class an undead CC class and a ranged DPS class edit:A system already demonstrated in talent trees and various other systems all throughout MMO space  but unless they let you swap in fractions of a second I doubt you will be able to heal yourself CC the undead and Range DPS the enemy all at once, and I seriously doubt they are stupid enough to let that scenario into the game. So you will have to choose which one you want to do and then find other people who wish to do the other two.

 

 

Also,

Back to the main point of this thread, didn't at some point in this massively unorganized roll out one of the devolpers say there were weapon classes and then sub types? I could have sworn someone said This is the sword class and this sword is of the fire sword subclass.

If that is the case it could be much more expansive than just, I want to cast fireballs so I use a scepter...maybe different scepters do different things...this would be much better than the GW2 model..so much better.

  ClassicEQ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 145

8/10/13 10:14:26 PM#95
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

I'm not worried.  Each class supposedly has a different ways of movement.  So you will have a lot of diversity.  

And what good does that do if everyone can acquire every class? You won't need each other.

Just because you can have every class doesn't mean you can be every class...at the same time.

I am more worried about this carrying over to crafting and people maxing out every crafting spec at once, which was a big problem with the new darkfall system. This was certainly not the case with SWG or UO and I hope, since they keep paying homage to SWG in conversation they do not go that route.

Back to your point, you may have a healer class an undead CC class and a ranged DPS class edit:A system already demonstrated in talent trees and various other systems all throughout MMO space  but unless they let you swap in fractions of a second I doubt you will be able to heal yourself CC the undead and Range DPS the enemy all at once, and I seriously doubt they are stupid enough to let that scenario into the game. So you will have to choose which one you want to do and then find other people who wish to do the other two.

 

 

Also,

Back to the main point of this thread, didn't at some point in this massively unorganized roll out one of the devolpers say there were weapon classes and then sub types? I could have sworn someone said This is the sword class and this sword is of the fire sword subclass.

If that is the case it could be much more expansive than just, I want to cast fireballs so I use a scepter...maybe different scepters do different things...this would be much better than the GW2 model..so much better.

Of course you can't use all the classes during a single fight. You will have to find people willing to be that class for a group. But I'm talking about out of combat interdependence that makes up a huge part of the game. Traveling (SoW, teleports, bard song) or just needed a necro or a levitate or whatever. Having unique skills are very important within a good mmo community.

  Eeks

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 72

8/10/13 10:19:43 PM#96
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
Originally posted by Fionn
Originally posted by fizzlesticks
Originally posted by TaliskerDev These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. 
 

Whaat??? So you're saying there will be a time we don't even have all our 8 abilities? What are you people thinking?

-This is the same in GW2, you start with 1 ability and level up more abilities over time.  Nothing is wrong with it and in GW2, you had all 4 abilities very quickly.

- The reason for this is it mainly gives you time to learn each ability independently.

- Another thing to remember - You have your class with 4 abilities, but you can customize your other 4 abilities based on 40 classes of abilities.  If you want a Warrior who can Mage Teleport.. you can do that.  

 

 

 

I'm worried everyone will acquire the Mage/Wizard class through multi classing. Which means everyone will be able to teleport. Which means no interdependence. Everyone can do everything. Basically a solo game like gw2. Very disappointing if this is the case! I love EQ.

I'm not worried.  Each class supposedly has a different ways of movement.  So you will have a lot of diversity.  

And what good does that do if everyone can acquire every class? You won't need each other.

Just because you can have every class doesn't mean you can be every class...at the same time.

I am more worried about this carrying over to crafting and people maxing out every crafting spec at once, which was a big problem with the new darkfall system. This was certainly not the case with SWG or UO and I hope, since they keep paying homage to SWG in conversation they do not go that route.

Back to your point, you may have a healer class an undead CC class and a ranged DPS class edit:A system already demonstrated in talent trees and various other systems all throughout MMO space  but unless they let you swap in fractions of a second I doubt you will be able to heal yourself CC the undead and Range DPS the enemy all at once, and I seriously doubt they are stupid enough to let that scenario into the game. So you will have to choose which one you want to do and then find other people who wish to do the other two.

 

 

Also,

Back to the main point of this thread, didn't at some point in this massively unorganized roll out one of the devolpers say there were weapon classes and then sub types? I could have sworn someone said This is the sword class and this sword is of the fire sword subclass.

If that is the case it could be much more expansive than just, I want to cast fireballs so I use a scepter...maybe different scepters do different things...this would be much better than the GW2 model..so much better.

Of course you can't use all the classes during a single fight. You will have to find people willing to be that class for a group. But I'm talking about out of combat interdependence that makes up a huge part of the game. Traveling (SoW, teleports, bard song) or just needed a necro or a levitate or whatever. Having unique skills are very important within a good mmo community.

This will be more of a long term problem methinks.  Who knows how long it'll take to obtain some of these classes as well as how long it'll take to tier up sufficiently for them to be of use in these situations.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/10/13 10:29:43 PM#97
Originally posted by ClassicEQ
 

Of course you can't use all the classes during a single fight. You will have to find people willing to be that class for a group. But I'm talking about out of combat interdependence that makes up a huge part of the game. Traveling (SoW, teleports, bard song) or just needed a necro or a levitate or whatever. Having unique skills are very important within a good mmo community.

I understand this concern, I just don't think we know enough about how class changing will effect things, can you keep bard song up if you are not a bard? Can you drop bard class as easy as some people are talking about and take up your primary fighting class (whatever that is to you), is the bard class even a class that is easy enough to obtain we can assume everyone will have it or is it going to be one of those "you have to find a wounded minstrel in the woods" type of things they keep talking about.

Remember they keep going on about how no one is ever going to be able to make a 100% guide to becoming some of these classes because of the dynamic nature of the world, I have kind of seen this in Age of Wushu's random events which are truly annoyingly random..

We just don't know enough, other than we know you can change classes and skills. I am not even sure they know exactly what they are going to actually put out.

It could be as you are worried about, that you just hit F3 to go bard and F1 to go full on mage/rogue/warrior or it could be as complex as running all the way back to a big city..or something else in between,

We don't know

We don't know how inventory will work, can you keep all the gear needed to be a bard and a necromancer (for levitate or whatever) and a rogue in your bag or will that restrict you from having enough space in your bag to carry anything else, or to carry various weapons to change between the class you actually care about, or what?

We don't know.

edit: I must say, I forgot all about the bard...that was my class when EQ came out, that and a gnome that summoned things, I use to really hate WoW for not having the group buff type of class...Lotro kind of has it but other than those two games I don't think I have seen it used much.

  Pinkninja

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 11

8/10/13 10:31:03 PM#98
hoping they are not bound to weapon in the gw2 manner. 

  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

8/10/13 10:34:06 PM#99
We haven't even been told that classes will provide things like fast travel teleports.
  Daaken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/01/13
Posts: 160

“It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.”

8/10/13 10:39:36 PM#100
Originally posted by TaliskerDev

Lots of good conversation going on here. Figured it would be easier to make an account and respond to everyone than send telegraphs via twitter. 

Please don't take anything I saw here as flippant or condescending,etc.  This is good conversation and I thank you all for participating. 

Let me clear this up for everyone. The current plan is that each class has a pair of weapons that they can use. Each of these weapons  gives the class 4 unique abilities themed for the class. These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class.  So if a class uses 2 swords and a spear then they get 4 abilities for the sword and 4 for the spear.   This list does not grow beyond 4. 

Why did we choose this design?  

As we stated in the class panel our many classes is each very focused. Very very focused on a particular gameplay style.  We also want each to be very visually distinct and identifiable.  Both of these goals become impossible to reach with too many abilities

 As has been pointed out n this thread, in EverQuest Next you are able to become any one of 40 classes at launch. These will feature a wide variety of equipment choices, ability load outs and multi-class options.  On top of that you can mix character abilities between classes for even more customization. Trust me there is something for everyone here.

Another thing that I cannot overstate - this is not your typical mmo. Our class and progression model cannot be accurately compared to anything on the market today.  We have played the games you have played. We know exactly what you are talking about when you bring up issues. Our hope is that together we can make a game we all want to play.

Please keep up the feedback, you guys/gals rock. 

Talisker

Thanks for coming on here Darrin hopefully I'll be able to convey my worry here instead of being limited to 140 characters on Twitter.  As I've previous stated having your weapon skills fixed was the primary reason I quit GW2, I am sure the Dev's over at Arena Net can also show you the many posts I made during beta as to why this is bad design, especially in a game that attempts to give players freedom and choice.

 

In any game that allows weapons to also function as skill acquisition there is choice on what a player can slot on his/her hotbar for example in WoW with my Warrior I have the choice to play with certain skills such as Hamstring I may or may not find such an ability useful.  Example in GW2 using Whirlwind Attack is not optimal in many situations. In WoW I had choice, in GW2 I did not.  This is compounded by the limited action bar we have.  I prefer the ability much like The Secret World or GW1.  I think you can still get the visually distinct and identifiable gamplay down while still giving players the choice.  Hell TBH I'd take illusion of choice if I could get it. 

 

The only positive and the reason why I say this isn't a total deal breaker (as it was for me in GW2) is there we were limited to 8 classes, and we have over 40 in EQN.  I am unsure as how many classes will have access to 2-handed Swords but I would suspect it to be much higher then 8.

 

Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.

Me: So you want something like EQN

Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.

Me: Double Facepalm.

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