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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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340 posts found
  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2698

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

8/09/13 4:11:15 PM#121
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t

I have been reading a lot recently about how the 'holy trinity' needs to disappear from mmo's. I know the idea has been tossed around for years but never in such force. Now, developers and games have started to make the shift. 

I guess my question is: Is this the problem with MMO's today, the Holy Trinity, and by eliminating it will the MMO's be better?

There is a big problem and it is called lazy game design / that's maybe harsh  ..... but easy mode may be closer to the point.

The new approach will open up a lot of opportunity and much more realistic game play, one step in the right direction. It will be a joy if NPCs start to provide a challenge and some variety again..

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  stevebombsquad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 669

8/09/13 4:11:26 PM#122
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

I wouldn't say that the AI in GW2 is advanced. Even the EQ Next devs were bagging on it and begging the fans not to think that their game will be similar to GW2 on anything other than a surface level. GW2's AI is just different. It isn't designed for tanks.... I definitely would not call it more advanced. 

 

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2698

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

8/09/13 4:13:56 PM#123
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Ticklepink
yea...why try to bake a cake with flour and sugar and eggs..that's so old school..lets start using sand and gravel and cement!

 

Your posts make sense and crack me up at the same time. Friends list +1

Amusing but the post shows , ignorance of the real issues some people do not know any better.

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/09/13 4:15:13 PM#124
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game with an even more archaic system, for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. In fact, it seems to me that's exactly what EQ did. Move the genre forward from UO. 

And there are plenty of ways to move the genre forward without contrived mechanics such as taunt. The way to do so is to start from the opposite end from where the EQers want to start - with the mobs. You then build your combat to counter mob behavior. After all, that's how the players developed the trinity back when this DikuMUD morass of taunt-based combat began. 

But, to your post, you don't understand because you are taking an out of context reply to another person's particular post and trying to apply it to the main discussion. You also probably were confused because, much like the guy that thought EQers invented the zerg, you think that EQ is where the trinity started. It began before UO in the DikuMUDs that EQ copied.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Ticklepink

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 122

8/09/13 4:16:30 PM#125

Its broken because too many people wanted to be everything to everybody. Tanks started screaming they were the most important while healers echod back " Oh yea?..here's some band aids.". Mages became  dps whores in direct competition with assassins and bards were phased out because  250%  speed cash shop mounts took their buffs place.

The masses cry babied for "easy' and naturally someone figured a way to make money off those folks while supplying everything ...for everybody...all at  the same time.

This is why you have tanks that can sort of heal and healers that can sort of cast magic and Mages who can sort of CC and assassins who finally won the GODmode competition and can now tank.

IMHO its watering down the class..not making it stronger.(or more desirable)

 

P.S. there is nothing more ignorant than blindly  throwing new ingredients into a tried and true recipe hoping for the same result as the first time it was used..(or the first 30 years its been used in this case.)

  orionblack

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 417

8/09/13 4:23:25 PM#126
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Brenelael
Originally posted by botrytis

Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.

 

The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

Um... No, it's called a personal opinion.

 

I find it very hard to believe that a mob that could wipe a trinity group in one hit wouldn't do the same to any other type of group. This has nothing to do with mob AI and everything to do with making group dynamics a thing of the past.

 

Bren

 

I'm afraid he's right Bren. Let's put it this way... if the AI is smart enough to not be taunted and kill the "healer" first, what happens to your trinity?

Touche Volkon..touche. 

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/09/13 4:29:29 PM#127
Anyone who has a brain and wants to use it to come up with their own strategies instead of constantly having one forced on them.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  keenber

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 439

8/09/13 4:37:59 PM#128

I played EQ for years with just a Druid,enchanter,best lord and wizzy and we were able to take down near every group content in the game because we adapted the so called trinity to our play style. Sure in some cases it took us way longer than if we had a tank,cleric group but it was probably one of the reason we still play today. We lost some but we never gave up and it made us better players and we had huge fun in trying. We have tried most every game out there the four of us but beside wow,eq2,rift and SWG there was no game that could hold us for longer than the first month and it was because the use of healers and tanks had been reduced by making the mobs easy and gave everybody the ability to self heal. We all felt while playing that we weren't helping each other but we were soloing in the same place. If you remove Argo and taunting and healing then I don't care what the mobs ai is like everybody will have to have self tanking,self healing and good dps. That will mean everybody will be basically the same and being grouped will be more of a inconvenice than doing it solo unless they make the mobs harder and you need the extra DPS.

To me the trinity has to be unless you want a solo experience even if you are grouped.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5248

8/09/13 4:38:51 PM#129
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game with an even more archaic system, for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. In fact, it seems to me that's exactly what EQ did. Move the genre forward from UO. 

And there are plenty of ways to move the genre forward without contrived mechanics such as taunt.

No argument. I'd love to see a system where agro is managed by how everyone in the team works together. Where the tank is defined by who's best managing the mob's agro. Where anyone not thinking or not paying attention can easily pull agro. I don't want to restrict DPS or healing. where they can't go all out, but it has to be balanced against what others in the team are doing.  and just going balls to the wall will get you killed fast.

The way to do so is to start from the opposite end from where the EQers want to start - with the mobs. You then build your combat to counter mob behavior. After all, that's how the players developed the trinity back when this DikuMUD morass of taunt-based combat began. 

again, maybe it was progress that brought UO from that, maybe not. Regardless, I don't see the Trinity as a way for players to deal with mobs, but rather a way for the mobs to deal with players. in other words. The trinity exists because of the human limitation, not the software. I've always believed mobs could have been made smarter. That was obvious from day one in MMOs. But when that's done, players can't deal.  This isn't going to change. Unless the AI is built from that standpoint. Then yes, Improving AI to deal with the limits of gamer's ability to act in a coordinated manor in the middle of chaos while still seeming realistic and not allowing the encounter to devolve into a zerg fest is exactly what MMOs need. Otherwise more advanced scripting with seemingly intelligent mobs is going to seriously out hink most groups. and not really help. Yeah it will be creative and funny. But it will kill strategy and take control from teh players and make the players almost 100% reactionary.

But, to your post, you don't understand because you are taking an out of context reply to another person's particular post and trying to apply it to the main discussion. You also probably were confused because, much like the guy that thought EQers invented the zerg, you think that EQ is where the trinity started. It began before UO in the DikuMUDs that EQ copied.

I understand that EQN is going in an entirely new direction than any of these old games. Personally, I'd rather a return, but that's my and my subjective opinion. I will still assert that UO is not a good example for an argument against the Trinity in a game such as EQN. It does not represent a good picture of the progress SoE is after.

 

 

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1965

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

8/09/13 4:39:00 PM#130
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t

I have been reading a lot recently about how the 'holy trinity' needs to disappear from mmo's. I know the idea has been tossed around for years but never in such force. Now, developers and games have started to make the shift. 

I guess my question is: Is this the problem with MMO's today, the Holy Trinity, and by eliminating it will the MMO's be better?

people hate wow so much, they come up with every shit to differ from it. as simple.

and no, games surely won't be better without.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  MagikrorriM

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 174

8/09/13 4:39:10 PM#131
The reason why the trinity works is efficiency, and any combat system that tries something new, still can't come up with anything more efficient. I'm all for a new style of combat, as long as it doesn't turn a 6 minute fight it would take a trinity to a 20 minute fight of a non trinity.
  Rinna

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/04
Posts: 387

8/09/13 4:44:56 PM#132

So many people argue that the trinity needs to go away to make games more solo friendly and enhance group dynamic but I find the opposite to be true (probably from too much pugging).  Without the trinity and defined roles, everyone seems to suck LOL :)  The don't try and get better at their main role because they don't really have one.

As a healer primarily, I like having a defined role of keeping the party alive.  I like having a tank because usually they seem to be the party leader as well, marking mobs and directing dps, pulling the instance in a coordinated way (if they're good) so that the party has less reactive healing thrown and more organized dps on targets.

Dissolving the trinity seemed to make group make up and dynamic more chaotic.  I've wiped a lot more often in non trinity groups than I have where everyone has predefined responsibilities.

No bitchers.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/09/13 4:48:25 PM#133
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game with an even more archaic system, for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. In fact, it seems to me that's exactly what EQ did. Move the genre forward from UO. 

And there are plenty of ways to move the genre forward without contrived mechanics such as taunt.

No argument. I'd love to see a system where agro is managed by how everyone in the team works together. Where the tank is defined by who's best managing the mob's agro. Where anyone not thinking or not paying attention can easily pull agro. I don't want to restrict DPS or healing. where they can't go all out, but it has to be balanced against what others in the team are doing.  and just going balls to the wall will get you killed fast.

The way to do so is to start from the opposite end from where the EQers want to start - with the mobs. You then build your combat to counter mob behavior. After all, that's how the players developed the trinity back when this DikuMUD morass of taunt-based combat began. 

again, maybe it was progress that brought UO from that, maybe not. Regardless, I don't see the Trinity as a way for players to deal with mobs, but rather a way for the mobs to deal with players. in other words. The trinity exists because of the human limitation, not the software. I've always believed mobs could have been made smarter. That was obvious from day one in MMOs. But when that's done, players can't deal.  This isn't going to change. Unless the AI is built from that standpoint. Then yes, Improving AI to deal with the limits of gamer's ability to act in a coordinated manor in the middle of chaos while still seeming realistic and not allowing the encounter to devolve into a zerg fest is exactly what MMOs need. Otherwise more advanced scripting with seemingly intelligent mobs is going to seriously out hink most groups. and not really help. Yeah it will be creative and funny. But it will kill strategy and take control from teh players and make the players almost 100% reactionary.

But, to your post, you don't understand because you are taking an out of context reply to another person's particular post and trying to apply it to the main discussion. You also probably were confused because, much like the guy that thought EQers invented the zerg, you think that EQ is where the trinity started. It began before UO in the DikuMUDs that EQ copied.

I understand that EQN is going in an entirely new direction than any of these old games. Personally, I'd rather a return, but that's my and my subjective opinion. I will still assert that UO is not a good example for an argument against the Trinity in a game such as EQN. It does not represent a good picture of the progress SoE is after.

There are other ways to get rid of the contrivance of taunt without just trying to created super advanced AIs for the mobs. Some (not all) are adding collision detection, identifying/attacking a more logical player target, mob interaction, or... dare I suggest... changing the purpose of mobs entirely from just being xp dispensers and loot pinatas. I don't know why you keep reiterating the UO thing, as I didn't say that's something we need to move forward to, however it is one of many other systems to look toward to see that organized group combat can exist and does exist without magical neenerneener skills to make it work. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/09/13 4:48:54 PM#134
Originally posted by Rinna

Without the trinity and defined roles, everyone seems to suck LOL :)

That's kind of the point... The Trinity means you do not have to think about strategy. That's why I hate it so much. People just get one for free and all they have to do before a fight is be like: "Um... well. I'm tank. I keep aggro. Yeah. I don't do anything else. Ever. All fights are the same."

So people really got used to it.

Now you give them something where the Trinity is not guaranteed to work, of course the suck! They are not used to have to sit down and think about what they're going to do, or what roles they're going to decide at this moment. Why nobody talks in PUG's? Because the game already told them what to do. The game already said: "This encounter needs 5 people, 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS. Get those and you're good." That's insanely dumb. It's this dumbness that makes a lot of people antsy with the Trinity. It's a hyper-gamification, hyper-simplification of reality.

This needs to be punished. They need to fail. People who refuse to think. Must lose. And die. And wipe. And, eventually, after that happens, maybe they'll realize they need to come up with their own "Trinity" before they go in.

The UO example someone brought up here sounds great. YOU decide how many people you bring. YOU decide what classes or whatever they are. YOU decide what you all do, together.

If you refuse to do any of that, why does it surprise you that you horribly suck and die? Since when going somewhere unprepared if it's even remotely difficult results in success?

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Pr0tag0ni5t

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/04
Posts: 226

 
OP  8/09/13 4:50:55 PM#135
Originally posted by lizardbones

I wouldn't say the trinity is broken. It was a response to a specific environment, and it obviously worked. A lot of people are happy with it. SOE is changing the environment, and in revisiting the combat, they opted to try something other than trinity combat. I can agree with the sentiment. I don't know if I agree with their final choice though, because I haven't seen it.

We don't have a good idea of what they are going to do. It could be something like trinity combat where players are sometimes tanks, sometimes dps or sometimes healers. It could be that players are either dps or support. We just don't know.

I would say it's entirely possible that there are a lot of people who are tired of trinity combat because they've been doing it for years and it doesn't matter what a company does with trinity combat, it won't feel new, and those players will be tired of it. I would also say that new players coming into the genre may not be hip to trinity style combat because it's not what they're used to. SOE thinks there are more people who would be hip to whatever their coming up with than trinity combat.

That's about all I can say on the subject.

 

I think its this more than anything else mentioned in this thread. SOE doesn't want the same player base that has been bouncing from mmo to mmo. Seems to me they are targeting 'gamers' that don't/won't or never have play(ed) the current mmo market. This way they can change the landscape of traditional group dynamics without having to cater to those that have played mmo's for years.

 

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5248

8/09/13 4:54:03 PM#136
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game with an even more archaic system, for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. In fact, it seems to me that's exactly what EQ did. Move the genre forward from UO. 

And there are plenty of ways to move the genre forward without contrived mechanics such as taunt.

No argument. I'd love to see a system where agro is managed by how everyone in the team works together. Where the tank is defined by who's best managing the mob's agro. Where anyone not thinking or not paying attention can easily pull agro. I don't want to restrict DPS or healing. where they can't go all out, but it has to be balanced against what others in the team are doing.  and just going balls to the wall will get you killed fast.

The way to do so is to start from the opposite end from where the EQers want to start - with the mobs. You then build your combat to counter mob behavior. After all, that's how the players developed the trinity back when this DikuMUD morass of taunt-based combat began. 

again, maybe it was progress that brought UO from that, maybe not. Regardless, I don't see the Trinity as a way for players to deal with mobs, but rather a way for the mobs to deal with players. in other words. The trinity exists because of the human limitation, not the software. I've always believed mobs could have been made smarter. That was obvious from day one in MMOs. But when that's done, players can't deal.  This isn't going to change. Unless the AI is built from that standpoint. Then yes, Improving AI to deal with the limits of gamer's ability to act in a coordinated manor in the middle of chaos while still seeming realistic and not allowing the encounter to devolve into a zerg fest is exactly what MMOs need. Otherwise more advanced scripting with seemingly intelligent mobs is going to seriously out hink most groups. and not really help. Yeah it will be creative and funny. But it will kill strategy and take control from teh players and make the players almost 100% reactionary.

But, to your post, you don't understand because you are taking an out of context reply to another person's particular post and trying to apply it to the main discussion. You also probably were confused because, much like the guy that thought EQers invented the zerg, you think that EQ is where the trinity started. It began before UO in the DikuMUDs that EQ copied.

I understand that EQN is going in an entirely new direction than any of these old games. Personally, I'd rather a return, but that's my and my subjective opinion. I will still assert that UO is not a good example for an argument against the Trinity in a game such as EQN. It does not represent a good picture of the progress SoE is after.

There are other ways to get rid of the contrivance of taunt without just trying to created super advanced AIs for the mobs. Some (not all) are adding collision detection, identifying/attacking a more logical player target, mob interaction, or... dare I suggest... changing the purpose of mobs entirely from just being xp dispensers and loot pinatas. I don't know why you keep reiterating the UO thing, as I didn't say that's something we need to move forward to, however it is one of many other systems to look toward to see that organized group combat can exist and does exist without magical neenerneener skills to make it work. 

 

I only reiterate UO because it's been the "Go To" canned response people are throwing around this topic in numerous threads as an example to substantiate a non-trinity system. It was the subject of my earlier post. And I called BS on that. That's all. And while I cannot argue that it is in fact a system that can be referenced, to include it, you also have to include all the limitations that came with it. Then, use it as the example if it fits.

 

EDIT: Let me rephrase. it was the subject of my initial post, if we moved off that, then I missed the queue, We can move on then,.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  User Deleted
8/09/13 5:52:00 PM#137
Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t
SOE doesn't want the same player base that has been bouncing from mmo to mmo. Seems to me they are targeting 'gamers' that don't/won't or never have play(ed) the current mmo market. This way they can change the landscape of traditional group dynamics without having to cater to those that have played mmo's for years.

I agree with this.

I do think they are listening to MMO vets as well though.

Part of the restructuring involves their AI.  They say traditional Holy Trinity doesn't work in their game because of the AI.  I think they're actually looking into and treating their game(s) like virtual worlds.    As opposed to making land, cobbled together with some half-assed lore and game mechanics that have no connection to either of the two aforementioned.  But hey at least they have all the bells and whistles of a traditional themepark game. 

Those players that are looking for the 'traditional modern themepark' are the ones not wanted.  Because those are the type of players looking to burn through all the content as quickly as possible so they can move on to the next game.  That type of gaming and those type of players is not sustainable.

 

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1902

8/09/13 5:58:39 PM#138
I'm sure the trinity dynamic is good for some people.  Plenty of people just don't want or can't handle change even though it's the only constant in life.  For me, I figured out after the third or fourth MMO I played over the course of a few years that the trinity was just a boring and old mechanic that forced people into roles.  Sure roles can be good, but when you spam LFM1Tank or LFM1Healer for hours on end to finally get a scrub to fill that role who is self centered and sucky to boot, it kind of makes that whole trinity mechanic just tiring and not worth it on top of how silly it actually is when you think about the mechanics (to me of course).

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4849

8/09/13 6:13:07 PM#139
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yes, trinity is very "basic" and "easy" in the most simple of encounter designs:

Tank holds aggro, prevents other players from taking damage, uses skills to reduce the damage they take.

Healer heals tank, heals random damage to others and self.

DPS nukes down the mob(s), tries to avoid taking damage so the healer can focus on the tank and not OOM.

 

But beyond a few encounters here and there in low level instances or specific "gear check" tank n' spank fights - how often is a boss fight a simple tank n' spank?!

Have predictable roles and situations allows the encounter designers to invent and implement crazy complex and  fun challenges that play to the strengths of the system, testing both the individual players skill at playing their chosen role, and the overall communication and coordination of the group as a whole.

Or, they can specifically design mechanics that change or alter these predictable roles and situations, adding further variety and enjoyment to an encounter.

There are always exceptions. The exceptional game. And there are certainly games that do more with the trinity model than others. However, that doesn't change the fact that we've already seen what the trinity model has to offer. We've had over 20 years of the trinity. To expect it to magically be different is kind of wishful thinking.

Heck, TSW had some pretty interesting encounters (though I know the game's not as hardcore as some of the people on this  thread are asking). However, that didn't stop the game from bleeding out subs, and it didn't really solve any of the problems we've mentioned.

  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 515

8/09/13 6:13:57 PM#140
Originally posted by Brenelael

It has to do with making MMOs even more solo friendly. If there is no interdependence between classes than there is no need to group at all except for raiding. This has taken MMOs even further down the road to single player games. The really sad part of it is it seems to be what the majority of today's MMO gamers want so they will continue to add mechanics that will make MMO even more single player. In today's MMOs the vast majority of the content is designed for a single player to accomplish. Isn't that the very definition of a single player game?

 

Bren

I did not realize that no game with the Holy Trinity was solo friendly.

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